| Posted: Sat Jan 3rd, 2009 06:27 PM |
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LilMag
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Gentlemen, is it possible to purchase a Sharps or Rolling Block reproduction rifle, that will in fact be able to shoot the modern 45/70 cartridges at todays PSI (40,000) and velocities (1600fps) using smokeless powder out of a Marlin model 1895 using a 400 grain bullet???
I had looked up in my book "Cartridges Of The World" trying to compare the Sharps 45/110 or 45/120 velocity's and bullet weights. However, I was a little confused as to the way things were pictured and set in print.
Thank You for your interests!
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| Posted: Sun Jan 4th, 2009 12:56 AM |
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wheezengeezer
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with smokeless powder the longer cases have only a disadvantage over the 45/70.they are only neded with black powder.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 4th, 2009 04:04 AM |
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Ranch 13
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Yes it's possible but the better question is WHY?
In those single shot rifles you don't have to limit yourself to the length restrictions required by Marlins version of the 73 winchester.
You can load the 500+ gr bullets to 12-1300 fps and shoot thru most any critter that walks the face of this planet. And you don't need to faddle around with smokeless powder running at high pressure and beatin the hell out of you , your gun and your brass to get the job done.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 7th, 2009 01:48 AM |
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LilMag
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hello forum members, my counsin Hi Ball wants to know if you can shoot a 450 grain bullet out of one of those reproduction Sharps rifles at a velocity of 1,600 fps.
how fast can one shoot a 450 grain bullet out of a 45/120 using black powder?
where can one find the ballistics for loading one of the above rifles?
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| Posted: Sat May 30th, 2009 04:24 PM |
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BPCR Bill
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Seconds on Ranch 13's post. A good friend took a Bull Moose in Montana about 14 years ago with his original Sharps 45-2 7/8". At 200 yards, three 500 grain cast bullets went clean through him, all shots in the vitals. The beast stumbled perhaps 50 yards before tipping over dead. This with Black Powder.
That same year, my nieces husband took a Bull Moose in the same state. His shots were at 75 yards, fired from a 338 Win Mag. Pretty much the same drama unfolded, but Larry managed to recover all three spent bullets from the offside of the critter. Just what did all that velocity "advantage" really do? There is a point where velocity is pretty much useless and can't even begin to make up for a well placed shot. Do not even begin to underestimate the capabilities of Black Powder. After all, it pretty much wiped out the North American Bison population in the 19th century.
I have yet to chronograph any of my BP loads, but I imagine a 450 grain bullet will be in the neighborhood of 1500 fps in a 45-120 (Dependent on case length and amount of powder). Shooting Black means you should be shooting cast bullets, not jacketed.
Regards,
Bill
Last edited on Sat May 30th, 2009 04:31 PM by BPCR Bill
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| Posted: Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 11:37 PM |
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Timberghozt
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I shoot a Marlin 1895 with a 300 grain Hornady HP ,velocity runs 2200 and some change if I recall right.,
It kicks the snot out of me..I`d rather load a cast bullet at modest speeds.Not sure about blackpowder but at full bore loads that 1895 is a kicking beast.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 11:43 PM |
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Ranch 13
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Gene slow that thing down to about 1600, it'll kill just as good on the recieving end and not so badly on the giving end.
Bill good to see ya here, see you in a couple of weeks at Forsythe
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| Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 01:47 PM |
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BPCR Bill
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Ranch 13 wrote: You Bet Don, It'll be good to be back in Gods Country and Al Lees little pasture!
Gene slow that thing down to about 1600, it'll kill just as good on the recieving end and not so badly on the giving end.
Bill good to see ya here, see you in a couple of weeks at Forsythe
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| Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 01:55 PM |
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Ranch 13
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Senior Chief, won't be getting to Billings until 9pm on thursday, the IT speciallist will get in at 8. Think I'll try to get to Al's and get camp setup by about noon, and then take off for the airport around 4. Hope its not so crowded the boys can't get some practice rounds in Friday.
Weather is cooperating , so it's looking like Doc and I will shoot Big Hill .
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BPCR Bill
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LilMag wrote: Gentlemen, is it possible to purchase a Sharps or Rolling Block reproduction rifle, that will in fact be able to shoot the modern 45/70 cartridges at todays PSI (40,000) and velocities (1600fps) using smokeless powder out of a Marlin model 1895 using a 400 grain bullet???
I had looked up in my book "Cartridges Of The World" trying to compare the Sharps 45/110 or 45/120 velocity's and bullet weights. However, I was a little confused as to the way things were pictured and set in print.
Thank You for your interests!
I just had to re-read that first question. First of all, Shiloh Sharps will warranty their rifles chambered for modern smokeless rounds if fired with smokless. I.E 45-70, 38-55, 30-40 Krag. If you load smokeless in a 45-110, 50-90, 50-140, rounds meant for Black Powder, and you damage the rifle, you are SOL, no warranty. I don't know about Pedersoli and the rest, you would have to speak with Dick Trenk or some other authority. I have an Uberti 38-55 and they state that they will only warranty if the rifle has been fired with factory smokless, no reloads allowed.
The big cartridges like the 45-110, just stick with BP. You can have all sorts of problems with smokless, like detonation and blown rifles. And I agree, the 45-70 can be pretty brutal with smokless loads in a light rifle. I shot a Ruger #1 in 45-70 with some hopped up smokless, and it was not fun in the least.
Regards,
Bill
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 02:35 PM |
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iain53
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Gents, I am new to reloading so I am not trying to put on as if I know anything, but I have been doing "due diligence" reading and asking questions. Let me see if I have this right about BP.
I have read that BP actually has a very sudden pressure spike compared with smokeless powders which tend to build pressure over a longer time. This means that using a load recipe of an appropriate smokeless will not blow up a gun, in fact, you will likely be able to reduce the pressure spike.
Secondly, I understand that smokeless powders typically occupy less volume in a cartridge. This can lead to uncontrolled burning of the powder so that it actually does "explode" rather than deflagrate- this is not good. The cure is to add filler on top of the powder to promote even burning such as one normally gets with the 90%+ full smokeless cartridge.
Do I have this right?
iain53
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 05:21 PM |
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BPCR Bill
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Just a bit of tounge in cheek response. Your assumptions on smokeless powders in BP cartridge are correct to a degree. There are many of the old BP cartridges that will shoot loads of smokeless safely, such as the 45-70 and 38-55. However, you can get dangerous loads with those cartridges with smokeless, just as you can by misloading a modern cartridge, say the 257 Roberts or 30-06. It is important to not only use a filler, but to use a powder with the correct burn rate for that cartridge. Black powder pressures can spike, and that is why it is recommended that load density is maximized and there is no air gap between the base of the bullet and the powder column. This is the accepted gospel amongst many shooters.
Since I started shooting in Schuetzen matches, and I use BP, I have done a bit of studying, albeit non-scientific. The old time shooters in that discipline used to breech seat their bullets (or load from the muzzle via a false muzzle). The charged case was then inserted into the chamber behind the bullet. This of course left an airgap between the case / powder column and the bullet base. From everthing I have been able to garner from my readings, these air gaps really had no ill effect on pressures. It wasn't until the advent of "Nitro" or early smokeless powders that chamber ringing became an issue. At that time, some of the old shooters like Pope had developed the "Duplex" loading method. Just a bit (say 10%)of the total powder charge was smokeless, dropped into the case above the primer, and then the rest of the case was charged with BP. The results were a cleaner, more efficient burn of the black powder, and the velocities were also increased.
I have loaded black powder breech seated loads for my 38-55 highwall. There is 3/16" gap from the bullet base to the case mouth. So far, with quite a few different brands of Black powder, I have not had any damage to the rifle. I have not "Duplexed" any of these loads. I have duplexed fixed ammunition in my 45-70 with some very good accuracy results, and no damage to the rifle. That is not to say it can't be done. I do know of one instance where a fellow duplexed a 45-110 load with Red Dot. That reproduction Pedersoli blew up. Using the wrong (i.e. too fast a burn rate)powder in a straight cartridge can have devastating results, regardless of if you use a filler or not. I am of the opinion that the old cartridges were made to shoot black powder, and they are capable of some fine accuracy. I just use black powder and forget the smokeless issue with those guns. I have enough modern firearms to satisfy my smokelss powder needs.
Regards,
Bill
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Mark Twain
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26th, 2010 09:28 PM |
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kennisondan
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I think you need to look up the black powder scheutzen rifle kind of topics..if what you want to do is shoot the big long black powder I think the case capacity was due to needing it... and they rocked pretty good .. very long barrels, very heavy guns... had to burn a huge case of slow powder..
I do not think that all the sharps repros will do what the marlin can withstand. there are basically three levels of power .. it is in one of the reloading manuals too...for smokeless powders... plenty of warnings and listings of guns... also look on the pedersoli site ... but I am thinking the speer reloading manual would have that info or something like that .. if I can find it I will point you at it.. I do think like the pedersoli will do it... etc. you need to check to be sure of the gun you are considering cause not all will do it and a mistake could be bad.
I used to shoot a 45 70 cowboy marlin and a single shot ruger no. 1 in 45 70 and they would both handle more than what you listed If I recall corrrectly... killed on one end and crippled on the other with the no. 1... the cowboy was the ticket... 26 inches of octogan barrel and nine in the tube, what recoil??? until you shot the last couple it was pure pleasure... swung like a champ too.. but 26 incher I think... you have to be careful not to load them the same... taffin wrote about that also, If I recall correctly; might try to find his name and 45 70 in same google search if you do not get what you need quick enough right here.
Also depends what you mean by repros... some folks consider the rossi and Handi rifels -- look at the buffalo rifle ( expect to suffer if you leave the metal curved stock butt plate on it, though ) I padded my brothers... it will shoot most serious rounds, but not as hot as a couple of the guns out there... like I said there are three definite levels of what guns can shoot what pressures etc.
.. one definitely can be shot a bit hot : the browning high wall can handle pretty high pressures .. almost as much as the top teir..I wil go see if I can find that list... it is interesting what the differences are... I would not feel the need to shoot the heaviest fastest unless I wanted to use it in africa or alaska where I am on the menu..
.. I have a line on a really nice pedersoli sharps it is just so nice lookng and heavy enough to suck up the recoil the guy and I are talking about a sale... he is shooting modern smokeless factory in it, but am not sure if it is the equivalent of a stout handload or a garrett .. biggest buffalo bore, etc. .he could be shooting the mild remington factory load which is good for any gun out there, slow but effective..i will ask him about it but was letting him stew on a deal for a while.
The Handi rifles and I think the rossi's and the other crack barrels that are legal for blackpowder season here are shooting the hornady pointed soft tip at incredible velocity and trajectory, so the answer is basically yes... some of them.. not all of them..if that is not enough I am missing the boat on your inquiry.
I hope this helps some. The guys paper patching 45 120s and even larger can tell you in a minute but that is confusing the question some.
I hope to find you more info
dk
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