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BTH
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| Joined: | 11 September 2007 |
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| Posts: | 5 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | none |
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Posted: 18 July 2008 12:53 AM |
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Hi Guys,
I was wondering comparing the RCBS ammoMaster 2 to the RCBS Rock chucker Supreme besides the Ammo Master can reload the 50 BMG and the rockchucker can't is there any other advantages/disadvantages (yes it costs more than the rockchucker) ?
I'm trying to decide on a single stage press. Besides the two above what do you think about CH4D Heavy Duty Champion press ?
I used to have a redding Ultra Mag I just didn't ever like it.
Thanks,
BTH
Last edited on 18 July 2008 12:54 AM by BTH
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miestro_jerry
HB Life Member
| Joined: | 28 June 2008 |
| Location: | Somerton (AKA BFE), Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 626 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! |
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Posted: 18 July 2008 01:01 AM |
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BTH,
Do you Load 50 Cal BMG ammo? I have just a good old fashion Rock Chucker press and it works extremely well for me. But I have a 2 Dillon 550s and a Dillon SDB in 9mm these do a lot of my progressive loading, where the Rockchucker does small runs like a 100 rounds at a time, or swages primer pockets or decaps a difficult case.
So this depends on what you want your press to do, see if there some one near you that reloads and see what he/she uses.
Jerry
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BigJakeJ1s
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 25 April 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 38 |
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Posted: 18 July 2008 04:52 AM |
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I use a Forster Co-Ax press, and really like it. IMHO, it is the best designed, best built single stage press available.
What did you dislike about the Redding UltraMag? That may give us a clue as to what you might prefer in a different press.
I think the Lee Classic Cast or the Redding Big Boss II are similar to the RC Supreme and other O-frame presses, but better designs, particularely with regards to spent primer handling. The Lee Classic Cast can also be used for 50 BMG with the appropriate accessories.
Andy
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BTH
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 11 September 2007 |
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| Posts: | 5 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | none |
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Posted: 18 July 2008 06:40 PM |
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Hi Andy,
Dislikes of Ultra mag are the following.
Reason 1. Have you ever taking your cases on a Concetricity gauge to measure the runout and than size the case and take the measurement again will with my Ultra Mag it got worse. Yes I took the dies over to a friends house and used his press and the runout never got worse.
Reason 2. The way they dispose of spent primers was always jamming up, yes I clean it out many of times no help.
Andy other people who have the Ultra Mag may disagree and that's ok these are my findings.
Number one seems to happen on alot on most presses when you load the big cartridges.
So you can either agree or disagree but since I can't afford a Corbin press I'm down to the Ammo Master 2 or the CH4D unless someone knows of another heavy duty press.
Thanks for your response
BTH
Last edited on 18 July 2008 06:42 PM by BTH
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BigJakeJ1s
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 25 April 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 38 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | pistol |
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Posted: 19 July 2008 04:50 AM |
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There are basically only a few contributions that a press makes to concentricity, since in your case you ruled out the dies causing it.
The ram bearing and the die hole/threads may not be properly aligned, or may not stay in alignment throughout the ram stroke (due to play in the ram/press bearing). Longer stroke presses are going to have more problems with either misalignment or the effects of play in the bearing (due to the longer exposed ram magnifying the effects of play in the bearing.) Secondly, presses like the ammomaster that do not have the ram bearing and the die hole in the same casting are likely to fare worse in alignment due to multiple tolerance stackup. You may get a really good one if the tolerances subtract, but you may get a worse one if they add.
Another feature to look at in a conventional reloading press is the relative length of the ram bearing compared to the length of stroke, and the diameter of the ram. Longer bearings relative to strokes and larger ram diameters both translate into less play at the top of the ram at top of stroke, given equivalent manufacturing tolerances. The AmmoMaster has a relatively short bearing and relatively small diameter ram, particularly in relation to the length of the stroke.
I really don't have any information on the CH4D press, particularly its length of stroke, but if it is large enough for your needs, it does appear to have a fairly long bearing compared to stroke.
Conventional presses also suffer because the top of the ram is farthest from support at the top of the stroke, with the last bit of the cartridge being sized or the bullet seated. They also suffer from the lever fulcrum being located on the bottom of the ram, where lateral forces vary in magnitude and direction during the stroke. These varying lateral forces cause the slack in the bearing to be first taken out in one direction, and then later in the stroke, taken out in the opposite direction.
Compare that operation with a Forster co-ax (perhaps it does not meet your capacity needs), where the business part of the ram (where the shell holder is) is always suspended between two bearings (above and below), limiting the amount of horizontal play. Furthermore, the design of the linkages always ensures that the slack is taken out in the same direction throughout the stroke.
Another design that limits play by maximizing the effective length of the ram bearing is that of the Corbin CSP-2 or the RCE Walnut Hill press. The Walnut Hill press is surprisingly affordable, but I don't know how large is its capacity. Both of these presses support the top of the ram in a cross bar that rides the tie rods between the top and bottom of the press.
Finally, most shell holders, and some die retention systems (e.g. co-ax) are designed to allow the die and/or the shell holder/catridge to self align during use. In practice these features can have limited effect due to the friction inherent in the floating mechanism. Still, they are likely better than nothing, particularly if the manufacturing alignment tolerance between ram and die hole are not too good in the first place.
Hope this helps,
Andy
Last edited on 19 July 2008 04:51 AM by BigJakeJ1s
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BTH
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 11 September 2007 |
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| Posts: | 5 |
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Posted: 19 July 2008 11:45 AM |
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Thank You Andy, I will check out the the Walnut Hill. Nice thing about this forum is guys like Andy who are always willing to help others out.
BTH
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Paul Tummers
HB Life Member
| Joined: | 18 June 2007 |
| Location: | Berg En Terblijt, Netherlands |
| Posts: | 327 |
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Posted: 19 July 2008 12:03 PM |
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As far as I know, are the ram-hole and the die-thread-hole realised in one operation,one hole acting as a guide for the other,thus alignement will be ok in itselve.Were it can go wrong, is threading the die-hole; if there is just the slightest canting, your alignement will be ruined until you perhaps manage to buy a die-set withe the same fault, which co-incidentally is adjusted in such a way that these faults work against each other.
This is one of the reasons for me to rely only on my COAX Forster press for accuracy.
Last edited on 19 July 2008 12:04 PM by Paul Tummers
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BigJakeJ1s
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 25 April 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 38 |
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Posted: 20 July 2008 01:21 AM |
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Ideally, the press's die hole would be threaded with a tap that had an extended pilot into the ram bearing, to maintain alignment with the bearing. The same technique (extended pilot) can be used when reaming the bearing hole to finished diameter. I don't know if that's how they actually do it on any presses or not.
There are techniques to allow the die to "float" in the threads, but the conical/helical surfaces will tend to couple horizontal float with angular float (a given amount of horizontal movement will also result in a certain amount of tilt), which hampers good alignment. One such technique is the Lee lock rings, in which the o-ring provides some flexibility to allow the die to float. I don't personally like them though, because they don't stay put when inserting and removing the dies from the press.
Another approach is to use Hornady Lock and Load insert and die bushings. The o-ring on provides some movement within the press insert, similarly to the Lee O-ring, but a conventional lock ring can be jammed down onto the top of the die bushing to lock the die to the bushing. Some users mark their press insert, and every die bushing, to make sure dies are always inserted with the same orientation (or clocking) in the press insert.
Yet a third technique, sometimes used on Dillon tool heads, is to drill a hole through the lock ring, parallel to the die axis. A matching hole is drilled in the tool head, and a pin fixed in it. You then place a lock ring over the die hole, with the pin engaged in its hole, and thread the die down through both. Leave a small gap between the lock ring and the tool head as you do this. When the die is adjusted proplery, lock the lock ring onto the die as usual (this won't work with Dillon or Lee lock rings since they don't lock in place on the die unless jammed against the tool head). The pin keeps the die from screwing in/out of adjustment, but it is still loose to allow the die to float. The same technique could probably be worked out on a regular press, where dies have to be removed/replaced easily, by having one pinned lock ring fitted for the press, and a conventional lock ring, locked to the die, screwed down until it jams against the pinned lock ring.
At one time, Hornady briefly announced a product that was a shell holder adapter that worked like a floating reamer holder to allow the shell holder to more easily align, even under load, but they never brought it to market.
Andy
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