| Posted: Wed Aug 5th, 2009 04:48 PM |
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rat31465
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Recently I joined a discussion regarding cleaning loaded casing that another member had began. Not wanting to hi-jack his thread with the information that I have recently obtained I decided to begin this thread.
I made contact with several Powder Companies asking them all the same questions and as of today have only received responses back from two of them.
The response weren't nearly as detailed or informative as I had hoped but I am not going to let it end here.
I am going to create another letter and attempt to get a more informative answer by contacting the actual Ballisticians. I may just be banging my head against the wall....but one thing I am good at is being a big enough PITA (Pain In The A$$) until I get a reasonable response. I will post any responses back into this thread as I get them.
What I have so far is:
My Question
A discussion within a Reloading Forum which I frequent has led me to ask
a question from the experts regarding Tumbling Reloaded Rifle cases.
What is the stance of your company regarding this practice?
Does tumbling loaded rounds effect the powders inside? Are some powders
effected more so than others? Example. Are the Stick or extruded
powders effected in the same manner as a Ball powder or flake type
powder?
Any input you might be able to give me would be greatly appreciated and shared within my reloading circle.
David Owens
Alliant Powders Response 08/04/2009
We do not recommend tumbling loaded ammo. We are aware that this has
been done at times but it makes us very uncomfortable from a safety
standpoint. We have not conducted any testing to see if it negatively
affects the powder. Thanks for your note and have a nice day.
Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company
Hogdon Powder Co. 08/05/2009
Ammo should never be tumbled. The tumbling action will degrade the powder raising the burn speed and causing high pressure
Mike Daly
Customer Satisfaction Manager
The Hodgdon Family of fine propellants: Hodgdon Powder Company, IMR Powder Company, Winchester Smokeless Powders, GOEX Powder,
Pyrodex Company.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 5th, 2009 06:00 PM |
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DesertMarine
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Thanks for starting this forum. Hope you get better responses from the powder companies. Their answers are like your doctor telling you your blood pressure is fine or glucose levels are fine without telling you where they are at. Not telling you much.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 5th, 2009 06:49 PM |
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RemMan700
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Hey Rat whats up! LOL I was just looking at this post and recognized the avatar and double checked it against the forum at M4. Nice to have you on this board!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 5th, 2009 08:19 PM |
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rat31465
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Rem700,
Yep, thats me over there as well...I have been on here just about long enough to make a nuisance of myself.
DesertMarine...I intend to keep after someone until I get at least a reasonable response. We'll se if it works out or not.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 5th, 2009 08:22 PM |
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Charley
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CYA replies in lawyerese. Translated into English, it basicly says: " We haven't tested specificly for that, we are not going to suggest doing it, because if something goes wrong, even if it is NOT related to tumbling degradation, you will sue our collective asses off. Have a nice day."
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| Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 12:49 AM |
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rat31465
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I got a few responses back already today and I have to say that I am very disappointed in the reaction and response I got back from Hogdon/IMR. I use to deal with this company at least weekly at a job that I had. And never had anything but good experiences from them.
I felt the response that I got back today from Mr. Daly was somewhat Terse and Dismissive as if he felt a need to put me in my place. I don't know maybe its just me? But I included both letters in their entirety and have kept them on file anyhow.
I don't claim to be an expert in the subject of Ballistics, or the manufacture of Smokeless Propellants...but I am also not exactly a novice on the matter either. As I suspect neither are a lot of the members of this forum. That is why when a question such as this comes up about participating in an activity that can..Lets face it be considered dangerous if not performed properly. I attempt to seek out the answer from the experts.
And I think this Question/Subject comes up frequently enough that the companies that produce the products that we all spend our money on need to address this issue. I know that I it sems that on the other site I frequent at least once a month or so someone...and not just the Newbies post a thread on the subject of Tumbling Loaded rounds.
But what are we to do when even the experts can't seem to agree on the answer?
I won't rant any further here other than to say that my confidence in Hogdon's Customer Service has been shaken with this company and it's new Management, and personally I am preparing to embark on a quest of my own seeking alternative Propellents for the cartridges I reload. God I Love America!
That being said here are the responses I have received back today. And I am afraid that I have gotten two conflicting replies.
David,
Powders are blended vigorously for hours during manufacturing; sometimes it’s even vibrated and shifted for periods of time.
The powder cannot be affected by tumbling inside a round were the movement is limited.
However, the danger lies in the primer, which can be activated because the brittle nature of the primer composition.
It is therefore not recommended to tumble/vibrate primed cases or ammunition.
Regards
Johan Loubser
Ballistician
Ramshot/Accurate Powders
Tel: (406) 234 04 22 email: johan@ramshot.com
So Mr. Loubser stance seems to be that its not the powder that is degraded and damaged..but the primer itself which can become unstable from the process...In 23 years of reloading I can only recall reading one story involving a loaded round going off while being tumbled. And If memory serves me correctly this was a case where someone decided to use a Rock Tumbler with the rotating drum to clean his ammo and not from a vibratory type case cleaner.
And here is Mr. Mike Daly's response back.
David,
OK, here is the answer. DO NOT TUMBLE LOADED AMMO. The tumbling will cause degradation of the powder. This will increase the burn speed of the powder raising pressures to what may be high enough levels to damage firearms or people.
It really is this simple.
Have tests been done? Yes, tests on powders have been done in regard to degradation by vibration. Here’s what we learned, DO NOT TUMBLE LOADED AMMO.
The longer the ammo is tumbled, the worse the problem. No, We cannot tell you what length of time would be safe to tumble ammo.
Here is what we also know about the internet. There are always those people who portray themselves as experts due to the anonymity of the internet. Our responses are limited by the truth, theirs are limited by their imagination. We try very hard not to get involved in arguments on the net because of this. IF people really want the answers, they should contact us personally rather than trusting a message forum on the internet.
I hope this answers your question to your satisfaction
Mike Daly
Customer Satisfaction Manager
Hogdon Powders
So there you have it...is it all as clear as Mud now?
I find myself left with more questions and concerns now than I had when I decided to pursue this. So I am just going to kep on doing what sems to have worked for me for the last 23 years of my reloading hobby.
And I am still thinking about conducting an experiment of my own if I can get one of my Professors from School to let me use one of the science labs for a couple of weeks.
I look forward to your responses.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 01:51 AM |
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choppersdad
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Rat31465.
I really don't find this message too hard to understand...
"Have tests been done? Yes, tests on powders have been done in regard to degradation by vibration. Here’s what we learned, DO NOT TUMBLE LOADED AMMO." 
Mark
But Dad...I only stuck my foot on the street for 2 inches, not all the way... 
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| Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 12:17 PM |
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RemMan700
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I do all my tumbling before hand and dont see the need to tumble live rounds. I figure why chance it.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 12:30 PM |
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klallen
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seems fairly clear to me, rat.
reasons and legal motivations may vary, but the general concensus is unanimous ... don't tumble loaded ammo. i would imagine any response you got back from anyone associated with the industry would voice the exact same thing.
which, incidently, is my personal opinion on the topic, too. i don't need feedback from ballisticians or powder manufacturers or primer manufacturers to assume there "might" be something inherently dangerous about the prospect of continuously vibrating loaded ammo. but that's just me.
what others choose to do is on them.
chat with ya later. k
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Bigdog57
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I don't tumble loaded ammo purposely, but lately when tumbling a lot of .223Rem I have had sitting in coffee cans for years, I have been surprised to find the occasional live round when pulling them out of the media! One had a serious dent in the side of the case, and a scratch showing it had been involved in a feed jam. I have no idea why I had it in my can of fired brass? 
Some years back at a gunshow, I bought a bag of WWII-dated .303Brit ammo. It all shot very well, no "click.....BANGs!" But, it was so very clean and shiney, I figured it had probably been tumbled. But, since it used cordite strands stuffed in the case before the neck was formed (standard procedure with these loads, from what I have read) there's no possibility of the propellant being moved around.
It's probably a situation where in normal times it doesn't make much difference, but there is always that one-in-a-million chance of something going woefully wrong!
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swampshooter
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As charlie stated you'll never get a powder manufacturer to say anything except "not recommended". Even if they had run tests they'd never tell us about it. Because kernel size and exterior coatings are used to control burning rates, it stands to reason that anything that could alter either one is probably not a good idea. Last edited on Fri Aug 7th, 2009 12:24 AM by swampshooter
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rat31465
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the latest response from Vhitavouri...
Dear David,
We would be happy to provide you enough information for you to plan for long term storage of your reloaded ammunition.
I am forwarding your below request to Nammo Lapua in the US . If they can answer your question immediately, they will. However, if it needs to go to the plant in Finland please be advised that August is Holiday season. Most of Europe takes an extended vacation throughout August.
Either way, Nammo Lapua will respond to you directly and copy me.
Best Regards,
John
Head of Regulatory & Quality Affairs
Kaltron
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rat31465
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I don't expect to have any kind of miracle break throughs with all the fear of Liability running rampant in this world.
It would be nice though to get the major manufactures to either agree for once on this subject or at least go on the record as to why.
This is just one of those questions that keep repeating itself over and over without getting resolved. I remember this subject being brought up back in the 1980's when I first started reloading .38 Super and .45 ACP ammo for PPC and IPSC matches. Surely if I have identified this as an area of concern for the reloading public then surely the Powder companies have.
And if they have, then why isn't there any studies with solid data available to back there statements?
Personally, I don't tumble reloaded ammo either...but from the number of people asking this question...others do on a regular basis and that concerns me.
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CryingWolf
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Rat, I joined to reply to your post. That and I think I need a to find a sane reloading forum.
I was involved in the discussion at M4 and it too disturbs me. I really don't see any company coming out being ok with tumbling loaded rounds. Just the liability part is enough to force them to take the cautious safe road.
I wouldn't hold it against Hodgdon's Mike Daly I found forum posts from 2005 where he is fielding the same question. Imagine over and over seeing in your inbox, "is it ok to tumble loaded rounds?" Also, imagine the people who argue with him just because they have been doing it for twenty years. I would assume it gets rather old fast.
Ramshot/Accurate Powders response is some what an eyebrow raiser. First I have seen could cause a primer problem.
I too do not tumble loaded ammo for a few reasons not least of which is I do not want to be "the one" and I really don't see the point. The gain to me does not justify the risk.
My biggest concern over these arguments is new reloaders, who may come away with the idea that this is OK with no risk, or this is the proper method of reloading.
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sdb777
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CryingWolf wrote: Rat, I joined to reply to your post. That and I think I need a to find a sane reloading forum.
Welcome aboard!!!! We hope you enjoy your stay!
Scott (we'd like to think we're sane) B
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sdb777
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Ramshot/Accurate probably experienced different results because a large amount of their powders are not 'stick'-type. I would think it difficult to break a 'ball'-type powder due to vibration?
Tumbling loaded ammo....no thanks. Took me too long to get the projectile in the case straight(runout needs to be under .0015" to meet my standards), can just imagine all the work that would be involved getting it back the way in was......
Scott (think they are about this topic) B
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rat31465
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Crying wolf...M4 Carbine is a good site..I post over there as well. That paticular discussion is part of the reason why I wrote these companies. After I have more information available I plan on writing it up and starting another thread. Until then..Keep your Powder dry.
As for sanity...One mans perception of sanity is anothers fantasy.
Sometimes I wonder if Dr. Tarr or Professor Feather is in charge!
(Lets see who gets that reference.)
Last edited on Sat Aug 8th, 2009 11:30 AM by rat31465
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CryingWolf
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Thanks Scott for the warm welcome.
Rat, I wish you luck and looking forward to your post on M4.
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smacks
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My Question is, why load your ammo before tumbling the brass.
If you have any ammo that the brass needs cleaning why not just wait till next time it is fired and go from there.
This thing could be kicked around on more than one forum like some other other things I have seen done and still come to nothing.
I would think the Powder Companies has no control over what goes on/or wrong in your loading quarters.
I would handle the powder and primers with the same caution from loading to firing
re guard less of what the powder Companies say.
Remember, this is not "play doe" we are working with.
smacks
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miestro_jerry
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I know of one reloading shop that tumbles they rifle ammo after it is loaded to get rid of any lube that is remaining on the cases.
Jerry
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