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wheezengeezer
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Posted: 5 January 2008 02:19 AM |
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Green Valley Bob wrote: wheezengeezer,
I found the single base and double base powder definitions in the
Speer, Hornady and Sierra manuals. I haven't heard of duplex powder.
Always something new.
GVB
well,what are the definitions? the black powder boys sometimes use the duplex loads
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Green Valley Bob
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Posted: 5 January 2008 02:28 AM |
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Sorry. The definitions are as you say,
single base powder: comprised primarily of nitrocelluose
double base powder: made up of a combination of nitrocellous and nitroglycerine.
GVB
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wheezengeezer
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Posted: 5 January 2008 02:59 PM |
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| thanks ! GVB Last edited on 5 January 2008 03:00 PM by wheezengeezer
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NUshooter
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Posted: 5 January 2008 05:41 PM |
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I don't know this for sure but I would guess that the reason there are not many long barreled 50, 458, 450 uppers is because of the powder capacity of the cases. All the powder will be burnt in a 16 inch barrel and not much of anything is gained with a longer barrel. Just a thought I wanted to throw out there. I don't know a lot about internal ballistics but this made sense to me.
Thanks
Greg
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Force_Recon_Marine
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Posted: 6 January 2008 01:51 AM |
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NUshooter wrote: I don't know this for sure but I would guess that the reason there are not many long barreled 50, 458, 450 uppers is because of the powder capacity of the cases. All the powder will be burnt in a 16 inch barrel and not much of anything is gained with a longer barrel. Just a thought I wanted to throw out there. I don't know a lot about internal ballistics but this made sense to me.
Thanks
Greg
The length of the barrel helps to determine which powder you use depending on the burn rate. The longer the barrel the slower the powder you can use.
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VA Bigbore
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Posted: 6 January 2008 03:18 PM |
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In my experience, when it comes to AR's, people don't purchase 16" uppers because of the burn rate of the powder. Most AR owners could care less what the "burn-rate" is. They want a short, easy to handle platform that can be manuevered and turned easily in whatever situation they may find themselves in. Who cares about an extra 100 fps at a distance of 10 yds? I personally don't use an AR for self/home defence. Not that I wouldn't, but I have other, better options in my opion, to start with first.
The powder issue from previously. Hornady is combining two different powders to load the Bushmaster and most all of their newest cartridges. Ok, my choice of words, "double-based", may not have been entirely correct. But the fact still remains that you are not going to load to their equivalent. Where did I get this info? From Hornady themselves. It was on their website, not sure if it still is. I was also sent a disc last January that went over all the new data and bullets that they were coming out with last year. There was a rather lengthy discussion/article on how they achieved the unbelievable velocity from their round. The 450 Bushmaster is loaded with pistol bullets and not rifle bullets, so expect explosive results on game
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wheezengeezer
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Posted: 7 January 2008 04:43 PM |
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Force_Recon_Marine wrote: NUshooter wrote: I don't know this for sure but I would guess that the reason there are not many long barreled 50, 458, 450 uppers is because of the powder capacity of the cases. All the powder will be burnt in a 16 inch barrel and not much of anything is gained with a longer barrel. Just a thought I wanted to throw out there. I don't know a lot about internal ballistics but this made sense to me.
Thanks
Greg
The length of the barrel helps to determine which powder you use depending on the burn rate. The longer the barrel the slower the powder you can use.
the case capacity,being somewhat small for the bullet dia will require a faster range of powders .the faster of the usable powders will work with the shorter barrels.a long barrel will be able to use the slower of those powders to a velocity advantage.
____________________
I was raised in the 50's on gunpowder and jackrabbits.salt and pepper wooda made'em taste better
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wheezengeezer
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Posted: 7 January 2008 04:59 PM |
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VA Bigbore wrote: In my experience, when it comes to AR's, people don't purchase 16" uppers because of the burn rate of the powder. Most AR owners could care less what the "burn-rate" is. They want a short, easy to handle platform that can be manuevered and turned easily in whatever situation they may find themselves in. Who cares about an extra 100 fps at a distance of 10 yds? I personally don't use an AR for self/home defence. Not that I wouldn't, but I have other, better options in my opion, to start with first.
The powder issue from previously. Hornady is combining two different powders to load the Bushmaster and most all of their newest cartridges. Ok, my choice of words, "double-based", may not have been entirely correct. But the fact still remains that you are not going to load to their equivalent. Where did I get this info? From Hornady themselves. It was on their website, not sure if it still is. I was also sent a disc last January that went over all the new data and bullets that they were coming out with last year. There was a rather lengthy discussion/article on how they achieved the unbelievable velocity from their round. The 450 Bushmaster is loaded with pistol bullets and not rifle bullets, so expect explosive results on game
the AR's seem to be popular for what they are,not what they shoot.a popular rifle gets its own developed loads.i dont have one yet but when i get one i plan on having multiple uppers.does anyone make an upper with a 24 inch carbon fiber barrel in 223 and 6.8 ?
do you have a link to the above mentioned information from hornaday?Last edited on 7 January 2008 05:01 PM by wheezengeezer
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Green Valley Bob
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Posted: 8 January 2008 04:45 AM |
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I too have an intrest in owning a Bushmaster Thumper.
Here is a link to a Hornady page with a Thumper video.
https://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=543
I hope this works.
GVB
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wheezengeezer
addicted handloader
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Posted: 9 January 2008 09:38 AM |
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| went to the hornaday website.the 450 is loaded with a MZ bullet,the same one developed for a muzzleloader.
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Force_Recon_Marine
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Posted: 10 January 2008 12:04 AM |
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VA Bigbore wrote: In my experience, when it comes to AR's, people don't purchase 16" uppers because of the burn rate of the powder. Most AR owners could care less what the "burn-rate" is. They want a short, easy to handle platform that can be manuevered and turned easily in whatever situation they may find themselves in. Who cares about an extra 100 fps at a distance of 10 yds? I personally don't use an AR for self/home defence. Not that I wouldn't, but I have other, better options in my opion, to start with first.
The powder issue from previously. Hornady is combining two different powders to load the Bushmaster and most all of their newest cartridges. Ok, my choice of words, "double-based", may not have been entirely correct. But the fact still remains that you are not going to load to their equivalent. Where did I get this info? From Hornady themselves. It was on their website, not sure if it still is. I was also sent a disc last January that went over all the new data and bullets that they were coming out with last year. There was a rather lengthy discussion/article on how they achieved the unbelievable velocity from their round. The 450 Bushmaster is loaded with pistol bullets and not rifle bullets, so expect explosive results on game
That depends on what you want to do with it. I have a DPMS AR in .308 with a 24" heavy bull barrel. The rifle weighs over 10 pounds but it is the most accurate auto rifle I have ever owned.
Double base powders are two different powders. Your context is correct. 
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wheezengeezer
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Posted: 10 January 2008 01:33 AM |
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Force_Recon_Marine wrote: VA Bigbore wrote: In my experience, when it comes to AR's, people don't purchase 16" uppers because of the burn rate of the powder. Most AR owners could care less what the "burn-rate" is. They want a short, easy to handle platform that can be manuevered and turned easily in whatever situation they may find themselves in. Who cares about an extra 100 fps at a distance of 10 yds? I personally don't use an AR for self/home defence. Not that I wouldn't, but I have other, better options in my opion, to start with first.
The powder issue from previously. Hornady is combining two different powders to load the Bushmaster and most all of their newest cartridges. Ok, my choice of words, "double-based", may not have been entirely correct. But the fact still remains that you are not going to load to their equivalent. Where did I get this info? From Hornady themselves. It was on their website, not sure if it still is. I was also sent a disc last January that went over all the new data and bullets that they were coming out with last year. There was a rather lengthy discussion/article on how they achieved the unbelievable velocity from their round. The 450 Bushmaster is loaded with pistol bullets and not rifle bullets, so expect explosive results on game
That depends on what you want to do with it. I have a DPMS AR in .308 with a 24" heavy bull barrel. The rifle weighs over 10 pounds but it is the most accurate auto rifle I have ever owned.
Double base powders are two different powders. Your context is correct.
double base powders ARE NOT 2 DIFFERENT POWDERS!!!! if you want to disagree give me some references.if i am wrong,i will stand corrected.Last edited on 10 January 2008 01:36 AM by wheezengeezer
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wheezengeezer
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Posted: 10 January 2008 09:37 AM |
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| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder Last edited on 10 January 2008 09:39 AM by wheezengeezer
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VA Bigbore
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Posted: 10 January 2008 11:45 PM |
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This whole argument really is just not worth the effort. If you want to buy the .450 Bushmaster, then buy it............if you can find one. If you don't ever intend to buy a large bore AR, then why argue the point?
I already stated that my terminology regarding the powder used may have been incorrect. The fact still remains that the reloading community will never have the ability to use the powder that the factory loads these rounds with. Also, after several discussions with Hornady, they have no intentions of releasing the bullets used in the Bushmaster (also the same bullet used in the .460 S&W) because of the idiots of the world that may try to reload them in the old 45LC lever action rifles. Yes they may be the same bullets they sell for 45 cal muzzleloaders, and if you want to pay $2 per bullet then you might be able load them in your Bushmaster. Go ahead. I do. I buy and load them and use them for hunting in my .454 Casull Encore. I also pay $1 ea for PowerBelts and use them in my Beowulf. So what????
I have already stated that a reloader cannot match factory ballistics in the .450 Bushmaster. If you can prove me wrong on that, then I will bow down and call you sir. Until then, I stand by my original statements. I can and do match factory ballistics on the Beowulf and I've seen reloading data for the .458 Socom that matches factory ammunition. Double-based powder definitions be-damned!
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wheezengeezer
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Posted: 11 January 2008 12:57 AM |
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| i dont mean to argue,we have a common interest.i DO plan to buy an AR.the 450 would fit the bill wonderfully.i am a deer hunter.there is no "may have been incorrect" to the terminology used.it was a gross misunderstanding.i am a technoid and i cant stand a post that can misinform.i also doubt that hornaday is using a "blend".they do have a patented process to load the light and heavy magnum.they get more velocity from the same pressure than any other manufacturer.it is common for a new bullet to be with held from the reloaders untill the demand can be caught up with.i do acknowledge your expertise with the ar.as far as matching the factory ballistics,only time will tell.most likely not.
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NUshooter
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Posted: 11 January 2008 01:10 AM |
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wheezengeezer wrote: i dont mean to argue,we have a common interest.i DO plan to buy an AR.the 450 would fit the bill wonderfully.i am a deer hunter.there is no "may have been incorrect" to the terminology used.it was a gross misunderstanding.i am a technoid and i cant stand a post that can misinform.i also doubt that hornaday is using a "blend".they do have a patented process to load the light and heavy magnum.they get more velocity from the same pressure than any other manufacturer.it is common for a new bullet to be with held from the reloaders untill the demand can be caught up with.i do acknowledge your expertise with the ar.as far as matching the factory ballistics,only time will tell.most likely not.
I have contacted Hornady many times about many things. They are always very prompt in answering any questions to the best that they can. Great people to deal with. They do use a special powder or blend of powders (they would not go in depth it is a company secret) and they stated that it would be very tough for any handloader to match their performance. They also have told me twice now that they will not be making the soft tip bullets that they load their 450bushmasters with available as a component any time in the near future.
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wheezengeezer
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Posted: 11 January 2008 01:29 AM |
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NUshooter wrote: wheezengeezer wrote: i dont mean to argue,we have a common interest.i DO plan to buy an AR.the 450 would fit the bill wonderfully.i am a deer hunter.there is no "may have been incorrect" to the terminology used.it was a gross misunderstanding.i am a technoid and i cant stand a post that can misinform.i also doubt that hornaday is using a "blend".they do have a patented process to load the light and heavy magnum.they get more velocity from the same pressure than any other manufacturer.it is common for a new bullet to be with held from the reloaders untill the demand can be caught up with.i do acknowledge your expertise with the ar.as far as matching the factory ballistics,only time will tell.most likely not.
I have contacted Hornady many times about many things. They are always very prompt in answering any questions to the best that they can. Great people to deal with. They do use a special powder or blend of powders (they would not go in depth it is a company secret) and they stated that it would be very tough for any handloader to match their performance. They also have told me twice now that they will not be making the soft tip bullets that they load their 450bushmasters with available as a component any time in the near future.
and that just parallells what i have said
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Wildcater
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Posted: 21 January 2008 10:30 PM |
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Ok, let me be so bold as to think I might be able to offer some help and clear up some well meaning misconceptions concerning the 450 Bushmaster. First off, I have a strong background and experience with this cartridge. Fact-Hornady, does make some of their cartridges with their super powders. The 450 Bushmaster is not one of them. Fact-.451” SST Bullets are going to be hard to get for the near future, as all available bullets are going on loaded factory ammo, this is a hot seller. Ammo is available from Hornady direct or everywhere on the internet and can be shipped to you. Rifles are easy to find in the same mannor, shipping is different. Yes, SST muzzle loading bullets can be had, but this is an expensive option if you plan on shooting allot. Same for brass, but just get some 284WIN or 6.5/284 brass cut them to 1.700” -.003 and bingo, until others come on board, hint-Corbon, maybe. The FL resize can be done with a standard 284 fl-die and bullet seating and taper crimp with 45ACP dies, watch the bullet seater, the wrong one will leave marks on the bullet. Yes, if pistol bullets are used, designed to expand at range and 300fps, they won’t penetrate large game, so use bullets that will for crying out loud, this caliber has been around for 150 years, there are highly available bullets for every and any use, save the HP‘s for home defense, they wont penetrate anything but will leave a real mess if you shoot flesh. Fact-Hornady’s 250gr SST are designed for big game and magnum muzzle loader speeds, 2000-2200fps (Hornady’s 450b 2200fps+). Therefore, that bullet at much higher speeds, +500-700fps, would also under-penetrate big game because of over expansion. Fact-Hornady’s 450B loading, I believe, was held down so as not to over stress that bullet on Big Game. According to my strain gage test the Hornady loading is 38,000psi. The AR is stressed to well over 75,000psi. And the 460S&W factory “PISTOL” ammo is 60,000psi. Fact-200gr to 300gr bullets can be made to speeds of 500fps to 700fps faster than the 38,000psi loads and not exceed 60,000psi, all with our normal powders. Fact- the Barnes 200gr and 275gr bullet, that are made for the 460S&W, will expand and penetrate “EVERYTHING” at the same time and will fly at 2800fps and 55,000psi and a little more psi for the 275gr. If that isn’t good enough and more penetration is needed try the various 230gr FMJ’s at 3000fps. I like the 230gr FP-FMJ’s best of all, the FP disrupts more tissue than expanded bullets, fly straight through the body with no inter-body deflection off bones, which is all to common with expansion bullets and can result in non-recovered animals and best of all, the FP’s will kill “EVERYTHING”-“ANYWHERE”, with truly amazing aplomb. Just a little foot-up for ya all, just to get you started…WC
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VA Bigbore
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Posted: 22 January 2008 02:47 AM |
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Wildcater wrote:
Ok, let me be so bold as to think I might be able to offer some help and clear up some well meaning misconceptions concerning the 450 Bushmaster. First off, I have a strong background and experience with this cartridge. Fact-Hornady, does make some of their cartridges with their super powders. The 450 Bushmaster is not one of them.
If this is true, and it may be, then they changed their powder selection from when they started advertising because I was sent a cd covering all their new offerings for 2007, from Hornady, that stated that they were using "blended" powders and they likened it to the 460 S&W round in that respect. Further, it was also stated in an article that I read in one of the gun rags. I had no intention of purchasing this cartridge, so I don't still have it to quote from. I have no personal experience with this round, only what I have seen and read.
Fact-.451” SST Bullets are going to be hard to get for the near future, as all available bullets are going on loaded factory ammo, this is a hot seller. Ammo is available from Hornady direct or everywhere on the internet and can be shipped to you.
Fact - Straight from Hornady. They will not market the bullets loaded in the 450 Bushmaster / 460 S&W to reloaders for fear of the reloader using these bullets in a .45LC lever action and killing themselves or someone else. That was told to me straight from the load development personnel at Hornady. You can purchase these as muzzleloader bullets, and I have already noted that above.
You offer a lot of information and food for thought for those who intend to reload for this cartridge. I don't have the AR stress pressures here in front of me now, but I will take your word on that, although they seem a little high from my literature.
No intention to flame your post. You seem very knowledgable with this round. I only reiterate what I have been told by those who are supposed to know, being Hornady themselves. Of course they can always change their mind, on both the powder and bullet selections, and maybe they have.
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Wildcater
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Posted: 22 January 2008 03:28 AM |
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Thanks for your vote of confidence VA-BB. Your knowledge base also shines threw the ether. I can see this isn’t your first Rodeo. A lot of what H told you they told me too, but who knows what the real deal is, because they also told me the things I quoted. Middlestate, if this is spelled correctly, also said the powder was a “WW-296 product“. Now, you can take that a hundred different ways. Bottom line, the SAMMI Spec Blue Pills for the 223 are 75,000psi, if my memory serves me, guess I’m to lazy to get up and look, because I seem to remember 79,000psi as well. But either way 60,000psi is very safe in the AR using the 450B and can give speeds well into 3000 fps, with the right combos, but not with 296 and with some of the bullets available and there are to many to count, it can kill everything on the planet. I know a gentleman that has chalked-up two Cape Buffs and an Elephant already, with the 450B, pretty good considering the trouble to get an AR into Africa, it’s an interesting story all by itself. I get much lower pressures and higher speeds with AA-1680, 296 seals better and I love it, but.
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