| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 10:39 PM |
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21st Post |
fryboy
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miestro_jerry wrote:
Fryboy,
I have decelerator grips on my Contenders, when loading hotter, it is the recoil into the hands and arms that is the immediate bother. But for long term use of hot loads, you can get frame stretching, but J.D. Jones used to load some really Dang hot loads in his Contenders for Rhino and Elephant type hunting. Now he bases his hunting barrels on the Encore frames.
The 444 Marlin Contender can take hotter loads than the 45-70, the question is, are you big enough to handle them? Plus my 444M barrel is an SSK barrel, not a T/C one.
A high school student, want to shoot my Super 14 in 444 Matlin, he was shooting 44 Mags that he loaded. Before I could say anything he changed his stance while pulling the trigger and the gun came back on him hard. If he had not been wearing safety glasses, he would have lost an eye.
But back to the subject, the 450 Marlin has some advantages and disadvantages. T/C does Make a 450 Marlin barrel for their Encore line.
Jerry
lacking the funds and machine shop i cant afford to stretch my frames( hard to deny shootin them to death tho but hopefully being prudent it shouldnt happen in my lifetime ) i seen the 450 marlin barrel i pass at least in a pistol ,i already have enough "big " calibers..tho that stainless fluted 308 barrel mite end up at my house soon ...my last purchases were indeed barrels 375 jdj 6.5x284 and a replacement 7-30,on the contenders i love the extra wieght from the pachmayers ,in the encores i replaced the wood with synthetic and filled the stock with packed sand ( lead was a lil too much wieght )on the rifle the pistol still sports the rubber'syn grips ( as an aside the longer synthetic forearm looks awesum on my 10"44 mag barrel-sweet! and gives a great hold as well and it doesnt need the extra wieght like the hotter calibers )i never let someone whom i dont know their shooting habits fire the heavy bangers until they worked their way up (i kinda like recoil freak's nick lolz but it was taken-drats ) glad the kid is ok !call me cautious but i've never been bitten by a scope ( yet)
indeed there are pro's and cons to both the 45/70 and the 450 marlin and the marlin was designed to fill a need ( more power in a safe platform that wouldnt inadvertally find it's way into a weaker action-for those of u who load hot 45/70's i urge u to label in red hi pressure loads u may never accidently load one in a weak action but ur kids mite after we pass ) both can be hot rodded to hades -a practice i cant condone ,in a lever action i'd choose the 375 win ( love it in my contender ! if i could choose but one barrel it'd prolly be that one ) if i could own but one gun and one barrel i'd take my ol 6.5 swede any day of the week and cry as i walked away from the delta elite 
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 10:58 PM |
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22nd Post |
miestro_jerry
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That young man had shot my T/Cs from the 221 Fireball to the 30/30, the 7x30 Waters, the 7 TCU and a few others This was before he got to shoot my 444 Malrin. He had over loaded a 357 MAX and blew out the primer pocket in another trial of his loading skills. But most of his loads were pretty mellow for the rest of the barrels. I did tell him to load the 211 Fireball hotter than he did before, his load was whimpy. But now that young man is away in the Army.
Of course I am hoping that some one will build a lever gun in 357 MAX. That would give me something beteen the 357 Mag and the 35 Rem.
But back to the subject, my only reservation on 450 Marlin is the limited source of brass and ammo. There are many years of experience and much loading data for the Marlins with the 45-70 out there and Ranch Dog bullets has some great molds for casting bullets for the 45-70. I lean more to the roll your own side of things, because ammo is more available for me and I can adjust the load as needed.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 11:10 PM |
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23rd Post |
Ranch 13
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Irish Mike wrote: Fryboy, now who on mothers green earth hunts with a single shot nowdays I ask? Only those who get paid by T/C Arms company to promote that blessed BP gun that Jim Shockey shoots and never has to clean right/
 Uhumaw no not quite
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 11:28 PM |
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24th Post |
fryboy
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miestro_jerry wrote:
That young man had shot my T/Cs from the 221 Fireball to the 30/30, the 7x30 Waters, the 7 TCU and a few others This was before he got to shoot my 444 Malrin. He had over loaded a 357 MAX and blew out the primer pocket in another trial of his loading skills. But most of his loads were pretty mellow for the rest of the barrels. I did tell him to load the 211 Fireball hotter than he did before, his load was whimpy. But now that young man is away in the Army.
Of course I am hoping that some one will build a lever gun in 357 MAX. That would give me something beteen the 357 Mag and the 35 Rem.
But back to the subject, my only reservation on 450 Marlin is the limited source of brass and ammo. There are many years of experience and much loading data for the Marlins with the 45-70 out there and Ranch Dog bullets has some great molds for casting bullets for the 45-70. I lean more to the roll your own side of things, because ammo is more available for me and I can adjust the load as needed.
Jerry
glad we agree with workin the way up ! it's just common sense amigo ,as for the lever gun in 357 max..a simple rechamber for a lever gun in 357 mag i'd think ,it isnt that much longer than the 357 and altho it should use small rifle primers ought to work fine ( tho now having said that ...wonder why they dont do it ? ) there is after all plenty of steel left in a 357 mag barrel,tho from the industry standpoint the 357 max was dead because of the original arms chambered in it ( bummer that as is a hot lil round )
on the plus side most the components sans brass work in both the 450 and 45/70 altho in a bolt action i'm sure the 450 would feed better,if it wasnt for reloading i would go with the 450 ( wonder how it does with a case full of ff ?)btw the max pressure listed for the 45/70 trapdoors etc run around15,000-28,000 cpu the lever actions seem to run about 40,000 cpu while the rugers etc run about 50,000
the marlin is listed in psi so i cant correlate it with the copper units of pressure but fps is about the same for lever actions( yes even with less powder and that big case of either holds lots, 45/70 more so )
edit for ranch
nice tree elk amigo i see so few of those but it does have a nice trunk Last edited on Sun Mar 29th, 2009 11:29 PM by fryboy
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 11:41 PM |
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25th Post |
miestro_jerry
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I was thinking of having a 35 Rem barreled and rework the bolt face for the 357 MAX. I know some one that redid a 45LC into a 45 ACP lever gun. I am still working out the cost factors and making the barrel in my shop for this.
For hunting these days, if I use my front stuffers, it is one shoot at best for the kill. due to age, my vision isn't quite as good, the hands aren't as steady, so I have to take my time, but I do carry a medium caliber Contender or my L Frame with me for the second shoot, which I haven't needed to use yet.
If Starline and maybe another company would produce the brass, I would be happier about the 450 Marlin, but then again the 357 MAX brass I have purchased has always been Rem. Even the 45 GAP brass is offered by two companies that I know of.
Just my 3 cents worth.
Jerry
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 05:04 AM |
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26th Post |
Irish Mike
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Ranch 13, just so you know, I own a 45/120 in a Sharps look alike. I don't hunt with this rifle, not yet anyway. Plan to shoot a big buffalo next year perhaps. However, my guided hunts or money hunts put a model 70 Winchester with pre-64 action in my hands. Caliber being a .300 Win mag or .338 Win mag.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 05:16 AM |
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27th Post |
miestro_jerry
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Mike,
You have my respect for shooting that Sharps look alike. Is this the David Pedersoli or a Qingley one? These are nice rifles, a little front heavy for me, but darn nice shootin' irons.
Jerry
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 02:40 PM |
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28th Post |
Ranch 13
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Irish Mike wrote: Ranch 13, just so you know, I own a 45/120 in a Sharps look alike. .
You have my sympathy. The 120 is tough enough to get it to shoot well without all the extra chamber the Italians generously cut.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 06:38 PM |
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29th Post |
Irish Mike
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Jerry, this Sharps look a like Pedersoli is heavy let me tell ya!
I cancelled my gym contract because I was getting enough weight training at the shooting range by golly.
It is the one that Magnum used in that movie about Austraila "down under" mate. I can hit a bucket with it at 300 yards though using sticks to prop it up with mind you.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 06:43 PM |
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30th Post |
Ranch 13
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The Quigley rifle was a Shiloh chamber in 45-2 7/8's ( 45-110)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 04:42 AM |
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Irish Mike
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Ranch 13, all I can tell you is that I had 4 different calibers to choose from and I picked the 45/120! Now this rifle has the patch box metal on the side of the stock and was called the Quigley model in the book I ordered from over the phone at Taylors. I look up the numbers tomorrow and through those at you just for grins savvy.
I have a friend of mine down in Northern Louzianna that shoots a real Sharps, across his fields at 800 yards and keep them his shots in small groups, his targets are on the internet come to think of it and he was the Texas High Power rifle champ one year. 
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 05:03 AM |
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32nd Post |
Ranch 13
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You wouldn't be talking about my good friend R Mulhern , would you?
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dogbreth
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miestro_jerry wrote: One of the things I like about the 45-70 is that fact brass is easy to find, I think the 450 Marlin is basically using Hornady as a single source. Other companies may pickup on this cartridge, but these days I find that we are trying to find sources and stock up on brass.
I did find that Trident (don't know who they are) sells 450 Marlin commercial reloads, 100 rounds for $125.00, find that quality 45-70 is about the same price range.
To me, the 45-70 gives me a good cartridge to reload and shoot. I do shoot some Leverlution ammo from time to time, but the brass is slightly shorter than the other manufactures out there.
I can buy new brass for about 42 cents each for the 45-70 in 500 quantity, but for a box of 20 it is about $14.00 and the 450 Marlin is a box of 50 for $44.00 or 88 cents each.
It is up to you, I am just expressing what I know and how much this could cost to feed.
Jerry
Brass!? Where!?. I've been looking for brass all over to load some 405 grain cowboy loads for my 45-70 Trapdoor. Whenever I do find any bullets or brass online, they are out of stock. Deer Season opens Saturday in KY and I don't have any loads for my 45-70. My .270 WSM that I bought will not group for crap with factory or any reloads that I've tried. I'm selling that thing with 200 brass and loading dies, or a trade up to a regular 270. Luckily my .308 pump gun is alive and well and kicking. Shot 4 bullets in one raggy hole at 50 yards with it this past week. Can't beat a 760 pump gun in .308. I'll keep looking for this brass that you say is around here in order to try and get some bullets loaded up for opening day of the deer hunt. Can't wait to get in the woods with the trapdoor rifle. Hunting with the bow is beginning to become boaring. Not seeing much at all. Sit all day and only see a red butt when I get home. Mine from sitting for 12 hours.
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miestro_jerry
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Have you checked Gunbroker and Ammo Btass Trader?
Jerry
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MontanaShooter
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ive shot 45-70s for quite a few years now. I tried the safe powerful handloads in marlins and eventually came to the conclusion that a moderate trapdoor load is much more enjoyable to shoot. 35 grains of IMR 4198 will thump you pretty good in a marlin where as it wont hurt at all in a heavy Sharps. The Marlin action is strong and can take alot of pressure, how ever unless your shootin grizzlies those loads are to painful to enjoy at least for me. I dont know anything about the 450 but i know the 45 70 is packs plenty of wallop. I shoot rolling blocks and sharps now so i can shoot the potent strong loads and enjoy them rather than have a bruised shoulder for the next 3 days. A 405 grain 45 cal bullet gets great accuracy at 1300 FPS. I knew a guy that shot 45-120s at near 3,000 FPS....Sounds pretty scary to me though even in a Big Timber Sharps action. I have a 45-110 Sharps to...well sorta its still in pieces I rebarreled it, have to build a forend and finish cutting the extractor groove and brown the barrel with some plum brown. It prob wont be as pretty as a big timber factory gun, but itll do anything that the big timber quigley will do. Those old sharps 45 70s even have no problem hitting a target at 800 yards with creedmore sights. They can kill a buffalo at 700 yards, therefore i have plenty of confidence in the old BP cartridges that they will do anything you want. Last edited on Sun Nov 1st, 2009 04:45 PM by
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miestro_jerry
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MontanaShooter,
I own the Marlin 1895 in 45-70, the 444 Marlin, and two Marlin 336s, one in 30-30 and the other in 35 Rem. I max the loads out sometimes and the rifle doesn't complain, Marlin does make some good shootin' irons.
My 45-70 is used to dispatch coyotes around my place, except we are getting thin on coyotes at the moment. Now I have find out what other varmits are around here.
I shoot the 405gr Cowboy bullets, and also the Ranch Dogs. I prefer the Ranch Dogs for more serious hunting.
Jerry
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MontanaShooter
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I did some studying today on the 450 out of curiosity. I can see little advantage over a 45-70 from comparing loading data in the Lyman book. I found that the 450 does put out slight more velocity at Max loads with a grain in a half less powder. According to the book mind you. Im sure the brass is harder to find and probably more expensive. The 45 70 is still alive after well over 100 years for a reason, its like the 30 06 its still with us cause its still appropriate. I wasnt debating whether the Marlin could handle a powerful load in my previous or sayin Marlins were bad, they are the best lever action still made to my mind and they are a strong action. As for the recoil to me it can be brutal for plinking so to speak out of that light of a rifle, if your takin one shot at a bear or coyote or whatever thats not a big deal. If your shooting 20-40 rounds it certainly tenderizes my shoulder. I have a friend that has a real nice remake of a High Wall 45-70, it is a sweet little gun, but recoil is quite nasty with it to due to its weight. I personally own a Model 1895 CB 45-70, and have owned 2 model 336s in 30 30. I have no complaints with the Marlin guns.
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miestro_jerry
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The 450 brass is hard to come by at the moment, or maybe for the year. The only thing I watch for when I get "box lot" deals on 45-70 once fired is to make sure there are not any balloon head cases. A Balloon head case is one that the rim is not solid, it is section of the case that is mashed together. You have 2 pieces of metal folded to make the rim. They are bad news when you use heravy loads in modern rifles.
When I find these cases, I sell them to collectors.
Jerry
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MontanaShooter
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I grew up next to a old indian war era fort. I knew a guy that gave some 1870s casings to me when i was prob 12 or so. He grew up there in the 1920s he picked up many old 45-70 army cases and spent slugs, amongst them was a 50-70 case even. The first cases were central fire but one time use copper cases with the primer on the inside of of the case head similar to a rimfire. If anyone wants to be technical they were prob 45-55s :) Same case with a reduced charge for carbines that was often issued in rifles as well if it were available. A little history is all. The copper cases were bad for getting siezed in hot chambers. Which greatly hendered the soldiers at the Battle of the Littlebighorn so much in fact it was blamed as a contributing factor in the massacre. After the Little Bighorn the military got away from copper cases in exchange for brass and mandated more frequent target practice, (weekly i believe). The Trapdoors were replaced by the Krag rifles in the 1890s. From 1866 (could a been 65 sure 66 though) to 1873 trapdoors were 50 70's and early rifles were converted civil war era springfielf muskets with cut away breaches and lined barrels to reduce bore size. The Rolling Blocks were probably a better rifle but the Army chose the trapdoor due surplus of convertable muskets. Wasnt the first time or the last time such type of reasons were used in making decisions. The M1 garand was at first supposed to fire a 270 caliber cartridge, but due to surplus WW1 production of 30 06 ammo they changed requirement to be the 30 06, which is a cartridge i love so i wont bad mouth it :) Attachment: Untitled.jpg (Downloaded 11 times) Last edited on Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 02:20 AM by
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miestro_jerry
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I have actually seen some that were still loaded, but they all seem to look like the ones in your picture due to age and how they were stored.
Many people have never heard of or seen a balloon head case. They are history, but something we should not be loading in our guns.
Thanks for posting that.
Jerry
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