| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 01:04 AM |
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sdb777
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To actually be able to call a rifle 1/2MOA, it must always shoot 1/2"(or less) groups at 100 yards. Now I know I've heard the internet tales of 1/2MOA rifles that came from the factory, shooting nothing but junk ammuntion of mixed projectile weights, and doing it with iron sights...but are these real? These are the rifles you hear about on some sniper websites....mostly.
Many of you know(or might know), I like Savage rifles. They seem to be really well built, and the barrels can be swapped by even someone like me! While those factory pipes can produce some fine accuracy with handloads, I generally don't get anything close to a true 1/2MOA rifle. PacNor Super Match barrels can get me close, but I always seem to ruin groups....and the perfect 1/2MOA rifle barrel opens up a 3/4-1MOA grouping.
I'm not saying that the occasional group in the .1's isn't possible with a great load, under perfect conditions....it just doesn't make a 1/2MOA rifle(hey, I've shot a few .1's). But what do the rest of the spots on the target look like? I generally shoot at target paper with at least three aiming points(I like six per page for 100yard shooting) for 200yards. And for anything beyond 200yards, it has to be a single spot...my eyes just aren't what they use to be!
What am I trying to get at? I don't know...just venting, too much sniper####.com I guess? Anyone else want to share a story now?
Scott (dang wannabe armchair snipers) B
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 01:46 AM |
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Rockydog
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Scott, You mean the "Brand new LoudenSpeakenShootzenBoomer in 6.5 BiggenMagnum that I've handloaded with a LeeLoaderHammerPoundenScooperDipper using the NewestBestestEverFastestPowder and HomemadeKitchenMatchHeadPrimers topped with a PlatinumConvexedOgivedStressRelievedProjectile that shoots targets DeadonNoHoldoverto600Yards 1/2MOA rifles? Nah. Don't believe 'em.
OTOH. Yep there are probably a few 1/2 MOA out of the box rifles out there. It's kind of like car engines. Ever hear somebody bitch cause the engine in a car only ran 60,000 miles before it puked while another guy with the same car got 250,000 miles from his? It's all about tolerances. Pistons must weigh from XX.420 oz to XX.660 ounces. Cam shaft tolerences must be from x.002 to x.015. Once in a while all eight pistons pulled from the bin weigh exactly the same. All the lobes on the cam are exactly x.002 etc. It's the law of averages. This engine runs like a sewing machine from day one and is destined to be the 250,000 miler. I imagine rifles are built the same way. Once in a while one pops off the line with rifling precisely right. With lugs that mate as if they were hand lapped with the finest pumice. With headspace that is perfect and a trigger that breaks like glass at the pull that works best for that particular owner. I really believe these exist. Too bad they always end up in the hands of your most obnoxious brother in law or other reprobate. RD
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 10:44 AM |
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klallen
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morning guys. i don't know. i guess i tend to agree that the 1/2moa title is thrown around pretty loosely on these sites, but there's probably more factory rifles out there capable of a consistent 1/2moa showing at the range then there are shooters capable of shooting 1/2" groups with those rifles. when talking rifle accuracy, i believe the three main weaknesses are (in very definite order), the human element #1, the load #2 and external conditions shot in (weather) #3. all things completely independent of the rifle itself and yet all things that factor into it being considered an "accurate" rifle.
i look for tendencies when i wring out a rifle. repeatable performances over time. i surely don't expect a rifle to print 1/2" accuracy every single group that i send downrange, when it's unrealistic to expect the same from myself. however, if a rifle shows a tendency towards those tight groups, i'm comfortable calling it a 1/2moa rifle. my warbird's a rifle that's printed many 1/2" groups over the years that i've shot it. this repeatable tendency shows me that with the load it likes, in prime conditions and more then anything else, with me doing my job, it is indeed worthy of being called a 1/2moa rifle, even though every group shot is not 1/2". again, to expect such is simply unrealistic.
i would agree, if a feller prints a single 1/2" group from his rifle and never repeats the level of accuracy again, then yes, calling that rifle a 1/2moa rifle, based on that one group, would be incorrect, in my opinion. again, true rifle accuracy isn't established with one tight group lucked into. it's repeatable tendencies. it surely doesn't need to be every single time, but if a 1/2" group can be repeated on a regular basis, yeah, i'll give that rifle the 1/2moa title. cause more then likely, once you've established a rifle as 1/2" capable, failing to attain that level of accuracy is more an issue with the guy pulling the trigger or the load or the weather then the rifle the trigger's attached to.
my opinions, of course.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 11:35 AM |
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swampshooter
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Sdb777, In order to truly qualify as a 1/2 minute rifle IMHO a rifle must average 1/2 moa for 5-5 shot groups fired under near excellent conditions. If a rifle shoots four groups in the low 4's and one group in the low 7's, then that is a 1/2 moa rifle. What most of these guys do while testing their rifles is shoot 10 or 12 three shot groups and if one of them happens to be under 1/2" they claim to have a 1/2 moa rifle. The sad part of this is that they actually believe that they have a 1/2 moa rifle and cease trying to improve . I've seen very few 1 moa rifles produced from the factories with hammer forged barrels, and have never seen a true 1/2 moa factory rifle since they went to hammer forged barrels, other than some of the high end Savage and Remingtons, such as the 40x, and the $1200.00 or $1300.00 dollar varmint rifles, but these don't use those $17.00 hammer forged barrels. PS> I have a good friend who works for Browning. He tells me, the factories pay $17.00 for a hammer forged barrel and $8.00 for a plastic stock such as seen on today's factory hunting rifles. Last edited on Fri Aug 21st, 2009 11:37 AM by swampshooter
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 02:14 PM |
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DesertMarine
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Agree with SwampShooter. I had a 40X with SS 26" barrel(which I was told was a Hart barrel), Precision Shooting stock, tuned 40X trigger and it would average around .5" groups with best group around .269" if I did my part and rifle favorite load. Hunting rifles, normally around 1" with careful loads and new crowns, otherwise 1.5 or greater groups.
Worked on a Rem 700 in 30-06 that went from 2.5" groups to .75" after cutting 2" of barrel and new crown and handloads for that rifle. It is possible for 1/2 min rifles but not that common on regular hunting rifles. The rifle had been abused and had severe pitting first 1.5" at muzzle end of barrel. Have a Rem 721 in 30-06, again abused child, that went from 3"groups to 1" after cutting barrel down, new crown and handloads.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 02:35 PM |
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Bigdog57
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"It's the man, not the machine!" Good quote from a movie I saw some years back!
Best group I ever shot was an honest 3/8" from my Winny 75T at 100 yards (.22LR, CCI Standard) - but this is a "One MOA rifle" in my book -- that is what I normally do with it. In another guy's hands, with better ammo - it might be a "1/2 MOA rifle". But yep, it depends on what can be done CONSISTENTLY. I am NOT a competitive shooter - just do it for funzies. 
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 03:26 PM |
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swampshooter
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DesertMarine wrote: Agree with SwampShooter. I had a 40X with SS 26" barrel(which I was told was a Hart barrel), Precision Shooting stock, tuned 40X trigger and it would average around .5" groups with best group around .269" if I did my part and rifle favorite load. Hunting rifles, normally around 1" with careful loads and new crowns, otherwise 1.5 or greater groups.
Worked on a Rem 700 in 30-06 that went from 2.5" groups to .75" after cutting 2" of barrel and new crown and handloads for that rifle. It is possible for 1/2 min rifles but not that common on regular hunting rifles. The rifle had been abused and had severe pitting first 1.5" at muzzle end of barrel. Have a Rem 721 in 30-06, again abused child, that went from 3"groups to 1" after cutting barrel down, new crown and handloads.
The older Remington rifles indeed had high quality button rifled barrels on them. Mike Walker, design engineer for Remington in the 60's and 70's was a bench rest shooter of the highest level. He is the one who got Clyde Hart started making rifle barrels. At that time Remington owned the most accurate deep hole drilling machine in the world which they used for their barrel drilling ( they also did all of the drilling for NASA projects). I'm not certain about early 721 barrels, but the later ones were all button rifled and of high quality. Mike Walker really cared about accuracy, but didn't care a whole lot about aesthetics. The pressed checkering model 700's were his design. Incidentally, if you can find an old 700 in good condition that has pressed checkering they almost without exception shot equal to today's custom rifles. It was rare for us to get one in a caliber that had quality bullets available that did not shoot extremely well. At that time the only quality bullets available were in .30 and .22 as I recall. Mike Walker retired sometime in the 70's, I'm not really sure, might have been in the late 60's, anyway after that Remington started trying to cut costs and things have gone down hill ever since, but they had to meet competition, price wise or go under. Compared to the cost of living , hunting rifles are cheaper now than they have ever been, and a 2" rifle will take every deer that should be shot at by the average hunter.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 03:38 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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My Remington 40X in .308 Win is a 1/2 MOA rifle, it cost a small fortune. If I use a lead sled, it can do wonders, but me hand holding it shows that I am not as good as I used to be.
These rifles do exist and can be had.
Jerry
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 03:46 PM |
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swampshooter
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To my knowledge they still put Hart bbls. on 40x's.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 05:34 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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You are correct, plus my was tuned up by a retired Marine armorer that worked in the Corps custom shop.
Jerry
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 05:50 PM |
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sako06
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http://www.rwhart.com interesting web site with long range shooting
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 06:09 PM |
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swampshooter
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sako06 wrote: http://www.rwhart.com interesting web site with long range shooting
This is Robert Hart,( a gunsmith) and Clyde Hart's brother ( a barrel smith) although I doubt if either one is still working.
PS. I was an armorer in the U.S. Army.
Last edited on Fri Aug 21st, 2009 06:11 PM by swampshooter
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 06:33 PM |
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sako06
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I called and spoke to them after listening to their long range shooting video to find out the make of the 20x80 binos, I was told they're Barska .A friend of ours in Pa who was a usmc sniper in vn told us he has test fired some of the sniper rifles made by hart. Last edited on Fri Aug 21st, 2009 06:33 PM by sako06
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 10:01 PM |
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DesertMarine
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The Rem 700 that I worked on was built in the early 70's. Tried to buy it but my friend gave it to his son. It'll probably go back in a closet or under the bed, in a case, just like before.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 10:27 PM |
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Timberghozt
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I have 43 rifles.. of those THREE are 1/2 moa rifles...Got some that are close but I can`t break below .5 with them..
tells ya somethin,The three that are truly 1/2 moa cost a chunk of money and it wasn`t until I matched them with match grade handloads that they showed the reward of the price involved with them.
I personally don`t care if folks say they have a true 1/2 minute of rifle..They`re shootin it.I shoot mine.I care less really about what someone elses rifle does.the biggest reward for me is walking up to my target and seeing what my rifle did and if its not a one hole rifle,then it drives me to make it that way..By the way,never have I shot a one hole group..Best I ever made was .18 but I am damned proud of that,took me two years to do with that rifle but when it snapped and I found what she wanted,I got a winner from her,.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 10:40 PM |
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sako06
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My best 5 shot 100 yard group from my 30-06 Sako Finnbear that had been bedded,tuned & scoped with a Leupold 3x9x40 VariX2c with a CPC Recticle was just under 7/16 inch.A friend I referred to the same GS to get his Sako 300wm bedded put his first 3 shots from 100 yards into .308 diameter hole.The GS we used did custom rebuilds,stock refinishing ,bedding,bluing,scoping,etc on pre 64 Wim Mod 70's,Sakos, Sako receivers & douglas air gaged barrels with Fajen triple A select walnut stocks also Win Mod 12's,Mod 21's ,etc.,.Our GS passed in 1990 and I've never been able to find anyone with the skills he had so I've refrained from purchasing any weapons requiring gunsmithing work. Last edited on Fri Aug 21st, 2009 10:46 PM by sako06
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| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 11:10 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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I still like my suggestion, minute of ground hog, I have a hand full of rifles that can shoot a hair off of a ...... Most of the time I am doing varmit control and hunting. So most of my rifles don't have to be 1/2 MOA. I did find that I have a couple of places where I can do 200 yard shots, but that would be for deer.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 12:55 AM |
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swampshooter
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miestro_jerry wrote: I still like my suggestion, minute of ground hog, I have a hand full of rifles that can shoot a hair off of a ...... Most of the time I am doing varmit control and hunting. So most of my rifles don't have to be 1/2 MOA. I did find that I have a couple of places where I can do 200 yard shots, but that would be for deer.
Jerry
I agree with your minute of ground hog. I normally shoot prairie dogs, and in the spring most of the shots are at young pd's, about the same size as a ground squirrel. At 300 or 400yds. (normal) in a 15 mph wind (normal ) with mirage thrown in (normal ), at unknown range (normal), I need all the accuracy I can get. Sure you can kill some at rim-fire ranges, but for every one at that range there are 12 out of range of your rim-fire. They are a real test of the shooter, his equipment and his hand-loading skill. Great targets, and if we don't control them, the ranchers will poison them, killing a bunch of other animals and birds of prey along with them. Such as hawks, eagles, burrowing owls and the endangered black footed ferret, which only lives in prairie dog towns. But, if given the opportunity, I would still enjoy ground hog hunting very much. It's great sport also.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 04:23 AM |
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miestro_jerry
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It takes a lot of skill to off a small animal that moves and then stands still. I have the ground hog hole marked with a tomato stake and the distances have been walked off.
As that on two sides of the valley I live in, there is heavy duty construction going on, a 42" High Pressure NG pipeline is being built, a whole host of other critters are showing up on my land. So far, besides more than normal amounts of deer, G' Hogs, Coyotes, I have seen Fox, Turkey and a Bobcat. I see the turkey flock in the spring and the fall normally, Never seen a fox or a bobcat on my land before.
Humanity is destroying the natural habitat of these animals, again.
Civilization really does s$#k sometimes.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 10:16 AM |
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sdb777
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All above give really good examples of how difficult it truly is to shoot a 1/2MOA group.
What I was getting at was some of the outrageous claims that a standard Remington/Winchester/Savage firearm that is picked up off the shelf, had a scope mounted and bore sighted, and a box of generic factory loaded ammunition, is bought by super-sniper. No break in, or cleaning...and consistently shoots under .25" all day at 600yards! These are the same guys that wear black commando clothing at the local mall(JMHO).
To be fair, I've gone to benchrest competitions and watched six shooters on the line all shoot factory class rifles. And let me tell you, for factory rifles they sure were tricked out! These six guys weren't newbies, they knew what to do and when to do it. Out of the six of them, only one shot a group(for score) that was above .3MOA!!(groups were shot at 200yards from the bench) Now the heavy gun class, no one shot anything above a little cloverleaf looking ragged hole....what else would you expect from a rifle that weights close to 35lbs and cost more then a new car!
Yes, rifles tend to be more accurate then the nut behind the wheel. Never thought that wasn't the case. And range conditions are always a part of the equation. But still, the fantasy of some 10 year old wannabe at the local supersniper.com has to be squashed!
Scott (keep 'em coming) B
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