BeaverJack
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HS-6 is a poor choice. It's way too dense to burn clean even in a longer barrel, it also produces much flash. It requires much powder to achieve SD velocities.
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fastlane1986
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Thanks for the advice. I haven't noticed much residue, but yes to flash and more powder per charge. My local gunshop was out of Titegroup last week but had more on order so I'm planning on picking up some soon to try out. Most, if not all, of my prior .45ACP loading has been done with Bullseye. The HS-6 was an experiment suggested by a friend. It does seem to load very consistantly and groups well, however.
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BAT1
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I have a Springer Champ and shorter barrels tends to like a faster powder. For the 230 XTP's I just loaded:
4 grs Clays, 4.8 gr Tite Group, 5 grs Bullseye, and 6 gr Unique. The XTP's are an accurate round. Hope that helps.
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miestro_jerry
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Tip Top,
Thanks for the recommendation on the AutoComp powder. Soon I will load a variety of bullets with AutoComp and try them in my match 1911 and my little Kimber, then I write all of the load down, then have them handy if anyone asks.
Again thanks,
Jerry
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OldStuffer
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If you really want .45acp velocity, here you go.
These 2 are my JHP loads, serious boomers, I have shot over 100 rounds of each tho. in fact, shot up a magazine of the 185 grainers tonight, just because (short, 5-round IDPA stage).
The bullets are both Hornady XTP's
The powder is Dynamit Nobel Vectan sporting line, powder 'SP-2'.
Primer is WLP
Usually use Winchester GI Match cases, just because I have a bunch arround.
Gun was/is my Llama Model XIA 1911A1 clone, 5" barrell.
230gr XTP, 10.8gr SP-2, chronograph, 1044fps avg, 15fps extreme spread, 8 rounds
Avg. deviation, 3.6fps. 556 foot-pounds of energy.
Can't find my chronograph sheet for the other one, sorry.
Found it!! :)
185gr XTP, 12.0gr SP-2, Chronograph, 1154fps avg, 97fps extreme spread, 5 rounds.
Average deviation, 26fps, 547 foot pounds energy.
My 3.6" barreled Witness Compact seems to loose about 75fps on my 950fps target load, even if it lost 100fps, that leaves me with 944/1054fps.
In the 26-oz (empty) Witness Compact, their recoil is "zingy". 
You still know you have ahold of something unfriendly in the "big iron" 1911. 
Use with care, of course. 
Last edited on Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 04:26 AM by OldStuffer
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 09:52 PM |
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26th Post |
fastlane1986
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Sorry, it's been a few weeks, but unfortunately, life sometimes gets in the way of my hobbies. I loaded 10 rds of 185XTP over 5.1gr of Titegroup and took them for a spin. Recoil was not too bad in my Springer compact but there was unburnt powder left in several cases. Not really enough to weigh with my particular scale. Didn't have a chance to to try 5.0 or 4.9, I ran out of daylight. Since we have a long weekend this week, I'll try a few more loads and report back.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 09:57 PM |
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27th Post |
miestro_jerry
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Happy Thanksgiving,
Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 03:06 AM |
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28th Post |
fastlane1986
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Results from today's shoot:
10rds - 185gr HPXTP, 4.9gr Titegroup
- medium recoil in SA Ultra Compact
- good accuracy (for me) at 25'(off hand/no rest)
- no powder residue left in cases
- last 2 shots into a row of 8 - 1 gal milk jugs, the jacket opened up but not the lead. They lodged in jug #6.
- no chrony readings but I estimate 770-780fps based on earlier supplied info.
It looks like this might be the best loading for me and this particular gun. 5.1 left just a trace of powder but 4.9 burned completely. However, I know this isn't an extremely powerful loading. The lack of expansion bothers me also. Shouldn't it still expand at this velocity? I've loaded the 230gr version of this at 725 fps and it expanded much better in the same type of test. I'd be interested in your opinions.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 03:16 AM |
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29th Post |
OldStuffer
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Hornady XTP's I have all had shipped to me with a "designed velocity" paper in with them, I'll go get one, see what it says.
I just know mine are "well above minimum". ;)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 03:27 AM |
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30th Post |
OldStuffer
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According to this, the .45 185grHP/XTP #45100 is supposed to be designed for best performance from 750-1450fps.
The 230 grainer is 800-1250fps.
Without a chronograph, you are guessing.
My loading I use runs 50fps slower than the load developer's did. If you justy happen to be running that much slower, that makes it 720-730, below designed optimum.
Step them up and test again.
Factory for the .45 auto is a 230gr @ 830.
Throwing a 185gr @ below 800, is, IMO, just lobbing it. It should by all rights be on the high side of 900, especially for a JHP "anti-personell" round.
Just to make legal IDPA "Power Floor" in my competition class (Custom Defensive Pistol, which is simply a single action .45acp), I have to throw that bullet (I use a LSWC tho) 892fps or faster.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 03:37 AM |
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31st Post |
OldStuffer
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Hornady's max load of that is 5.5 grains, only a 17,000psi load (SAAMI limit is 20k).
I would be looking at 5.2-5.3, not 4.9.
Should put you somewhere arround 910-920, if your velocity matches theirs.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 04:30 AM |
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32nd Post |
fastlane1986
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Thanks for the suggestions. An earlier post suggested 4.5 to 5.6 for Titegroup, so I started in the middle. However, don't forget this is only a 3 1/2" barrel here. If I'm not burning all the powder, what's the point of going beyond 5.1 or 5.2? I'll try a few at your suggested 5.3 and see how much residue is left. Maybe I had a few of my spent HS-6 cases mixed in by accident. They also left unburnt powder so maybe I saw something that didn't really apply. Stay tuned.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 05:14 AM |
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33rd Post |
miestro_jerry
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The beauty of the 45 ACP is that if you hit a living target, you will do a lot of damage, whether it be a hollow point or a "Ball" round.
With my little Kimber Ultra Carry II, when I can achieve meaningful expansion of hollow points, I generally have an uncomfortable amount of recoil and the slide locking open once in a while.
But I load the Hornady 185g JHP, with 6 grains of 231, I get about 900 fps out of it with decent expansion using my full size 1911. Using the Ultra Carry, the expansion isn't that good and I am not sure of what the velocity really is. But I haven't had to do any match shooting with at 3 inch barreled 1911.
I am interested in what load will make these little 1911s shoot well for defensive use. As I started this posting with, the beauty of the 45 ACP is that if you hit a living target, you will do a lot of damage.
The foot pounds of energy is what interests me about this load. A 38 Spl +P 158 grain bullet at 720 fps gives about 180 pounds of energy, I use this example because I carry a S&W 340 PD using 38 Spl +P ammo in it. If I use the old Ohio Highway Patrol 357 Mag load, which is 125 grain bullet at 1,200 fps in my pistol, it gives me about 400 pounds of energy. Both of these loads are unpleasant to shoot due to the light weight of the pistol. Now I am doing an educated guess, but a 45 ACP with 185 grain bullet at 800 fps, gives about 260 pounds of energy, I am guessing at the velocity because of the short barrel. Next time I get a chance to use a Chrony, or get one for Christmas, I will check that figure.
When using hollow points, to get proper or expected expansion, it is a combination of velocity and energy.
I have been using Speer Gold Dot ammo for self defense in my little Kimber, it's spec for a 5 inch barrel is 1050 fps and 435 pounds of energy. I know that this ammo is rated the same as the lawman version, but I don't know what the difference is. I would like to get some Winchester Ranger ammo to try in the 3 inch barrel, it maybe restricted to LEO only, but every where is back ordered at the moment, so having my son buy me some is out of the picture.
Any of our highly respected LEOs have the specs for the 45 ACP Ranger ammo?
Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 12:00 PM |
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34th Post |
OldStuffer
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I had forgotten you are throwing out of a short barrel. All data that I have ever seen for .45auto is from the standard 5" barrell. I have never chronographed my JHP loads out of my Witness' 3.6" barrel, never really thought to, maybe I should get sufficiently bored today Hmmmmmmmmmm (after putting the tree up).
My target wadcutter load is the one I have compared, and I loose 75fps out of the 1.4" barrel loss, Witness to 1911A1 clone, using Red Dot. THe 1150 and 1044fps velocities of mine, are from the Llama.
Even if your velocity does match the test rating, then shorten the barrel, you get to be in the 820-850fps ballpark IMO.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 12:17 PM |
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35th Post |
OldStuffer
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Winchester happens to publish the specs in their LE Catalog, downloadable online from them. ;)
.45acp is available in the Bonded series, the T-series (those re-named "Black Talons" that are so evil the public must be kept away), and the Frangible, all "Ranger" L.E. ammo.
Bonded and T-series in 230Gr only, Bonded in standard pressure only.
Bonded - MV- 905, Vel@ 5' - 900, 25 yards - 885, ME -418, 25 yards - 399
"T"-series - MV - - 905, Vel@ 5' - 900, 25 yards - 885, ME -418, 25 yards - 399
"T"-series +P - MV - 990, Vel@ 5' - 985, 25 yards - 966, ME - 501, 25 yards - 475
Frangible runs a 175gr @ 1000 MV.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 12:21 PM |
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36th Post |
woodsman777
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In my kimber ultra CDP (3" barrel)I've had good results using 230 saber and the 230 XTP with 6.0 gr of universal ,good accuracy and clean burning.have not chrono'd it yet
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WOODSMAN777
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29th, 2009 03:48 AM |
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37th Post |
fastlane1986
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OK, another 10 rds of 185gr HPXTP today, this time with 5.3gr of Titegroup. I must say I'm starting to like this powder more and more. No problems, no powder residue, very manageable recoil and accurate. I now believe I must have picked up some cases off the ground that had come from my previous trials with HS6 and had unburnt powder left in them becasue these cases were clean. I'll try 5.5 and see what I get.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29th, 2009 04:42 AM |
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38th Post |
miestro_jerry
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Good Luck,
Jerry
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fastlane1986
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miestro_jerry,
In an earlier post, you gave me loading ranges for the 185 gr HPXTP and Titegroup. Do you also have the suggested range for the 230gr version? I've gone back through this discussion string and found a couple of references, but not a min/max range. Since the original question was for the 230gr XTP, I'd like to experiment with that one as well. As I mentioned, I had been playing with HS6, but I like how Titegroup is performing.
Thanks for checking.
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OldStuffer
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Hodgdon's current online manual specs 4.8 grains Titegroup, 230 gr Hornady HP/XTP, 818 fps, 16,700 CUP.
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