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bea175
Board Founder
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Posted: 20 June 2006 07:02 PM |
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I will be one of the testers if i get to do the shooting. If i got shot i would rather for it to be with a 45 ACP Hardball than a 9mm CorBon HP. Give me my choice and it would be a paint ball gun.
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klallen
Administrator
| Joined: | 10 February 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 642 |
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Posted: 20 June 2006 08:31 PM |
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| I honestly don't see owning a .45acp or 9mm. Neither one has ever really called to me when considering concealed carry cartridge selections. With assorted shoulder and belt holsters, my cc cartridges consist of the 7.62x25 Tokarev, .357 Sig, .40 S&W and the 10mm Auto. These cover my personal defense bases pretty well. Wouldn't fault a feller for selecting either the acp or 9 but they just aren't for me. Later. >> klallen
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crazy2medic
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 16 March 2006 |
| Location: | Watauga, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 291 |
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Posted: 21 June 2006 01:52 AM |
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| I have little use for the 9mm, personally I carry a cocked and locked 1911 style .45 14rds in the mag and one in the pipe! for years I was the medic for our cities tactical team, I was there when one of our officers had to shoot a pit bull in self defence, shot the dog four times with the winchester sxt(black talon)in 9mm, two in the chest, one in the neck, one in the shoulder! the animal control officer picked up the dog over an hour later! dog was still on it's feet! relatively healthy and I believe it actually survived the shooting! after this incident our police dept went to .40 and .45s. sorry I have little use for anything under .40cal! when somebodies trying to kill you they can't be too dead!
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Teach the children quietly, for someday sons and daughters will rise up and fight while we stood still!
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bea175
Board Founder
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Posted: 21 June 2006 04:40 AM |
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Using any handgun for self defense has much more to do with the bullet used than the cal of the handgun. If you carry high vel HP AMMO in the 45 , 9mm or 40 the bigger cal should work a little better. I feel just as well armed against human targets with one of my 9 mm's with good ammo as i do with my 40's or 45 's. I would rather have a good 22 lr pistol on me than a heavier 45 in the glove compartment . Most people who don't carry professionally tend to leave their heavy pistols home or in the vehicle when taking short trips to the store or service stations. Lighter pistols may not be as effective but you tend to have them with you more often than the heavier ones.
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Blackhat
HB Life Member
| Joined: | 2 January 2006 |
| Location: | New Braunfels, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 139 |
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Posted: 24 June 2006 01:00 PM |
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| Charley, Just because you is wasted alot of money on 9mm pistols and ammo, thinking it was the answer to concealed carry, don't get mad at me. Oh and by the way the vital organs you spoke of, they are protected by a hard mass known as bone. The point I was trying to make is; a bullet with alot of momentum (velocity and bullet weight) will GO THROUGH BONE AND DAMAGE VITAL ORGANS! Anyone who hunts game or varmints would know this. A bullet that does not have enough energy to make a free standing target fall over will be pretty apt to stop short of THE VITAL ORGANS.
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Charley
Administrator
| Joined: | 9 September 2005 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2207 |
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Posted: 24 June 2006 02:04 PM |
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Blackhat wrote: Charley, Just because you is wasted alot of money on 9mm pistols and ammo, thinking it was the answer to concealed carry, don't get mad at me. Oh and by the way the vital organs you spoke of, they are protected by a hard mass known as bone. The point I was trying to make is; a bullet with alot of momentum (velocity and bullet weight) will GO THROUGH BONE AND DAMAGE VITAL ORGANS! Anyone who hunts game or varmints would know this. A bullet that does not have enough energy to make a free standing target fall over will be pretty apt to stop short of THE VITAL ORGANS.
LOL! 90% of the time, my carry gun is a Para-Ordnance P-12, loaded with Pro-Load's +P 230 grain JHP. When carrying a smaller gun, I do carry a 9x19 loaded with Cor-Bon's +P 115 grain JHP. I don't believe the 115 grain bullet at 1300 FPS or so will bounce off any human bones, and I don't believe the 230 grain is the hammer of Thor, either.
From youir posts, I know you hunt. I've punched thru bones with lot's of different cartridges...a 40 grain .22LR is used by lot's of poachers to take whitetails with head shots. Generally has no problems penetrating the skull. A whitetail's skull is no heavier than a human sternum, which is the bone you will most likely have to penetrate on a human. Ribs (human) are not much of an impediment to any bullet, there just is not enough mass to them.
I suggest people use whatever ammunition they feel comfortable with. If I lived in a People's Republic state, like New Jersey, that prohibits HP ammunition for its citizens, I would absolutely trust nothing but .45 ACP. .45 ball beats every other ball ammunition, which was the original idea. .45 ball beats most of the 1st generation JHPs and HPs. It's been almost 40 years since Lee Juras showed the way with Super-Vel. Since that time, technology has moved ahead considerably in ammunition and bullet design.
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Timberghozt
Board Founder
| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Plaza De Los Armas, Mexico |
| Posts: | 5286 |
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Posted: 24 June 2006 02:16 PM |
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lol..I see the ole 9mm Parabellum versus 45 ACP has sparked a lively debate here...Good stuff gents,I like to see differing opinions.If we all agreed, this would be one hell of a boring world..
I am goin to shoot my 40 S@W this mornin..I am being neutral//lol
Gene
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caz223
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 29 May 2005 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 343 |
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Posted: 27 June 2006 06:17 AM |
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I'm back after a month long hiatus.
Anyway, my short answer is to carry the biggest, most powerful piece you can carry and conceal, and let others worry about the 'magic bullet'.
There is no such thing. All pistol rounds are a compromise. Pick the best compromise for you and don't give anybody a hard time about what they carry. They have to live with it if they can't defend themselves/ their loved ones when SHTF.
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Timberghozt
Board Founder
| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Plaza De Los Armas, Mexico |
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Posted: 27 June 2006 12:15 PM |
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Hey caz..Welcome back,been missing your pistolero commentary..
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427windsorman
Administrator
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Posted: 27 June 2006 04:53 PM |
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.45ACP all the way. There are a lot of good pistols out there to choose from. I like the Glock 21, but not sure if 80% of active / reserve personnel are ready for something like that without a lot of training, lol. There were plenty of "accidental" discharges back when I was in and the 1911 was the issued sidearm. Too many morons who forgot they had one in the chamber when they were at the clearing barrel.
My unit received several of the Beretta in the late 80's to test so I got a lot of firing time with it, as well as the 1911 I was issued. I would be lying if I said there was anything I liked about the Beretta back then. When I was deployed to the sand box in 1991 I had a choice between the 1911, and the Beretta. To me, it was a no brainer..... .45ACP all the way.
The switch from .45ACP to 9MM was done for political reasons, not out of necessity, IMHO.
.45ACP = Good
9MM = Not good
Just my opinion.
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Riposte1
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 10 July 2006 |
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Posted: 11 July 2006 01:45 AM |
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There seems to always be more heat than light in this never ending saga.
Perhaps it is best to remember that people are not often bowled over by 12 gauge buckshot or slugs (though both are fairly effective at bringing about incapactiation in 3-15 seconds - 15 seconds can be a long time in a gunfight).
I have talked to two officers who shot subjects 12 times ea. with .223 Remington (these were close range Law Enforcement shootings using soft point ammo) before they went down. They were chest cavity hits. Is that normal, no - Thank God! But it is also not too rare, and 3-6 or 7 hits is pretty common.
To be sure, a marginal hit with a good caliber is not nearly as effective as a good hit with a marginal caliber, but it is important to know that even good hits sometimes fail to get the job done *in time* (they normally get the job done, and we simply don't really have the means to measure the time so it becomes an issue of effective the subject is while the rounds take effect).
That said, a 9mm might expand but a .45 sure won't shrink 
Personally, I will carry the most effective round I can which I can shoot well. For me that is a .45 but if yours is a 9mm that is OK.
Riposte
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birddogger
HB Full Member
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Posted: 11 July 2006 10:30 PM |
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I LOVE this debate, it'll never end but it can be a lot of fun! I'll admit right now that I'm a fan of the .45 ACP; however alot of friends and coworkers carry the .9MM. I have always maintained that the sidearm you have with you is worth 1000 at home in a drawer. In the late 1980's after losing several agents in shootouts the FBI conducted tests to determine the most effective caliber for a sidearm. Their tests covered the 9MM ;.45ACP; .40 S&W.; 10MM and the .357 SIG. The two best calibers were reported as the .40S&W and the .45ACP in that order. { if it means that much to you the rest of the rankings were .357SIG; 10MM and 9MM} The key conclusion was that proficancy with whatever firearm almost TRIPLED the percentage of "highly effective shots" . Personally, I determine which sidearm I carry be based on the conditions I expect to encounter; concealment is key here in PA. So; depending on the weather, I opt for either a .45 ACP 1911 in a pancake or inside the pants holster or my 6" model 29 in shoulder holster. The best caliber? it's the one you shoot and practice with the most.
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robk
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 25 October 2005 |
| Location: | Yukon, Oklahoma USA |
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Posted: 26 July 2006 08:23 AM |
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for myself iliked the 45 to a degree but i like the accuracy and the ease of working in small places. also they carry more ammo and with a good 147 grain hollow point and knowing where to place it helps a lot. i realizse that the 45 has knock down power but it is the shooter that makes a difference in my mind. i have had 45's and they were good but 7 shots and your reloading or popping another 7 bullet magazine. my new taurus magazines hold 17 and one in the pipe.much better speeds and flatter trajectory and just as good knock down with the 147 grain hollow point they make for home protection. i have owned both and i taught my kids to shoot and they all love the 9mm over the 45. i can control the recoil but my boys didn't like the recoil at all and come down to it the money spent on 9mm vs;s 45 acp rounds the 9;s are much less money wise and you can shoot much more. just my 2 cents worth
rob k
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saddlesore
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 6 February 2005 |
| Location: | Colorado Springs, Colorado USA |
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Posted: 26 July 2006 05:32 PM |
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It's the 1st one or two rounds that are going to save your butt in a gunfight, put in the right place. So the 7 or 17 don't make lot of differnce. The spray and pray method isn't condusive to long life.
I don't think flatter trajectory has any bearing in gun fights since most occur 5 yds or less. If you have to worry about trajectory, you had better be getting your butt outta there instead. MOst lawsa concerning us eof lethal force say that if possible you should extracate fromthe local oif possible . You don't have to back up with some of these new lwas that Florida and other states have pssed, but it might be more prudent.
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bea175
Board Founder
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Posted: 29 July 2006 03:45 PM |
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| I'm personally carry what is the easies to carry concealed at the time , depending on the clothes i'm wearing . I own pistols in 45 acp , 40 S&W , 357 Sig, 9MM ,357 mag and other cal such as the 44 mag, 22 lr and 454 Cas. I guess you could carry my 4 inch 629 Smith and I have at times but it is a little on the heavy side. I'm not saying the 9mm is a better stopper than the 45 acp but i am saying i don't feel under gunned with a good 9mm and good HP ammo. Of all the cal i own i consider the 357 mag the best man stopper of all of them. Whatever cal you carry, where you shoot them is much more important than what cal you shoot them with.
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armoredman
Handloading Master
| Joined: | 8 April 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
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Posted: 18 October 2006 07:57 PM |
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Blackhat wrote: ...But if the cops would have been using a 30-06 with military FMJ bullets, it would have been another matter. The bullets would not have penetrated the Kevlar, but the shock from the impact would have knocked the <#%@#$! out of them!
How? Unless Newton has been repealed, equal and opposite applies, just like the guy I saw shot with an FAL, standing on one foot, at point blank range. Didn't knock him over.
As it was, the NH shooters were wearing soft armor cut up into arm and leg protectors, not rifle proof stuff, so any rifle cartridge would have done it, even the poodle shooter.
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Riposte1
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 10 July 2006 |
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Posted: 18 October 2006 09:10 PM |
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Charley;
I agree completely. I count Evan Marshall as a dear friend, and take great exception to the folks who besmirch his character by implying that the stats are somehow "doctored".
However, I dont put too much stock in the numbers as I know what what makes them up. To be useful Evan had to filter out multiple shot failures (which happen a lot!) and include all hits in the torso as equal.
While an interesting piece of data, it does not tell the whole tale but then there is not much else out there that will.
As a quick snapshot (hardly scientific and certainly it will change) the last 5 cases I reviewed the details of when a .40 S&W was used (one case involved 2 subjects) there were an average of 9.5 heart or lung shots involved before the subject ceased being a threat. Small samples sometime lead to shocking results but statistics were of no help to the 3 guys who had to take 11, 12, and 13 shots before ending their fight.
I have never interviewed anyone who got more than 4 heart/lung hits with a .45 who did not get the job done and the average for the last 5 is 1.5 hits per fight.
Dont ask what the 9mm is, even I would not beleive it if I did not have the details right here.
Riposte
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Timberghozt
Board Founder
| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Plaza De Los Armas, Mexico |
| Posts: | 5286 |
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Posted: 3 November 2006 01:05 AM |
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ahhh...to see if anyone else wants to comment on this..
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"He who fights with monsters might take care, lest he thereby become a monster; For if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - F.Nietzche
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bea175
Board Founder
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Posted: 3 November 2006 01:35 AM |
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| Hey Timber i have my Kahr 9mm on my side as i write this, loaded with 124 gr Speers Gold Dots. The Kahr is my favorite carry weapon due to it size and weight plus i like the 9 mm with good Hollow Point Ammo.
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Timberghozt
Board Founder
| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Plaza De Los Armas, Mexico |
| Posts: | 5286 |
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Posted: 24 November 2006 02:40 AM |
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hahahahah..jk 9mm owners
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