| Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 12:17 PM |
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Timberghozt
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Copied this from SM.Pretty good read!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.gunweek.com/0410ssue/feature0410.html
A Case for Military’s Return To a .45 ACP Pistol in Future
by R.K. Campbell
Contributing Editor
The 9mm-.45 ACP Debate Continues
In the Feb. 10, 2006 issue of Gun Week, Roving Editor Jim Williamson questioned the wisdom of the US military abandoning the idea of a 9mm pistol in deciding on the next generation of military sidearm to replace the M-9 (Beretta 92 F). In this issue, R.K. Campbell offers another viewpoint, arguing for adoption of a new .45 ACP but retaining some features of the M-9.
I have said it before, but the phrase bears repeating. The 1911 is an enigma. A contemporary of the Edison phonograph and curved dash Oldsmobile, this handgun has survived and remains at the top of the heap. Like the controlled feed Mauser action, the 1911 is recognized as the finest of designs, although much modified from its original production. Improved, yes, but the improvements build upon the excellence of design that marked the original.
Today, the demand for 1911s seems endless. I recall when there were three Colts—the Colt Government Model, the Commander, and the Gold Cup. Then, Colt went to the Series 70, and this liberal tightening of the pistol was gradually accepted. A decade or so later, Springfield introduced a quality clone gun that gave Colt a run for their money. Today, a much longer article would be needed to list all 1911 variants available.
After a 9mm pistol was adopted by the Army in 1981, doomsayer’s predicted the demise of the 1911 in the face of competition from double-action pistols, 9mm pistols, and high-capacity pistols. These handguns have become popular, and significant numbers are serving. However, I respectfully submit that these pistols no more replaced the Colt than the tactical folder has replaced the Ek Commando knife.
The 9mm pistols replaced the Smith & Wesson Model Ten in police issue and various sundry revolvers among civilians. The 1911 was the choice of the trained operator or those in the know and has remained so. It is the preeminent handgun of the modern warrior. Those at risk have spent considerable sums in attaining 1911s, and in some cases deploying them against regulation.
Modern 1911
The military has realized their mistake and issued a call for 645,000 .45-caliber pistols. Any resemblance to our present enemies and the Moros would paint the degenerates we now face in a flattering light, but they are men, and motivated men are difficult to stop with a small-bore pistol. As the 1911 approaches its 100th year of production, it will be back in the holsters of American fighting men where it belongs.
There are arguments pro and con on the 1911, but we must remember we are not going to replace a modern pistol with a relic. The modern 1911 that will be chosen will resemble the original outwardly, but it will be a highly developed pistol worthy of use in this century. The pistol it replaces, conversely, was developed in the early 1970s and is due for replacement.
The maker gave the Army exactly what they asked for. The Army asked the wrong questions. On a personal level, I take handgun choice seriously. For over 20 years, the handgun was more than a lifejacket; it was on my side every day. Handgun reviews are a chance to shoot a pricey toy for some, but you will not see much of that in my early work. I gave house room only to working handguns and the same is true today.
I feel a commitment, even an obligation, to share my experience regarding fighting handguns with the public. For some the words are entertainment, but for others the advice on personal defense has been well taken. More than once I have received letters from someone who used a handgun I recommended in defense of their life. In all cases, the 1911 performed as expected.
Personal Stake
It is interesting to note that men who save their lives with the 1911s often note, “The gun saved my life,” while those using lesser handguns will credit tactical movement or marksmanship. The man or woman behind the handgun counts for the most, but the 1911 is the best handgun for the trained operator to be behind. I have no financial stake in the outcome of the new government order, but I have a personal stake that cannot be overstated.
Several young members of my family are in military service. While I am proud of my police service, there is little comparison to the danger of military service and the discipline and physical conditioning required. A soldier will see more danger in a month than most cops experience in a lifetime. They need to be well armed.
The facts are irrefutable and easily recognized in a fair shoot out. The 1911 rules in competition. Competition is not combat but it is a contest. The geometry of the piece leaves all others behind. A low bore axis allows the 1911 to set low in the hand, limiting muzzle flip. The clean, straight-to-the-rear trigger compression makes for excellent hit probability. The grip fits most hands well, unlike the bulky grip needed to accommodate the double column magazine of the present service pistol.
I simply cannot understand any claim for superior hit probability with the 9mm. The Police Marksman’s Association study published some years ago showed the 9mm pistols in police service producing a hit one time in four. The .45 showed a much higher percentage, a reflection on training, but perhaps on the efficiency of the pistol as well. Remember, police and military focus is reversed in training.
The Cartridge
The police train mainly on the handgun with lesser long gun training. The military, special units aside, train little with the handgun. The 1911’s low bore axis, straight-to-the-rear trigger compression, and excellent ergonomics make for greatly improved handling over any other design save perhaps the Browning High Power. And the High Power is a small bore.
That is a real question: the cartridge. The big bore has proven to be more effective than a small bore pistol cartridge time and again. The Thompson LaGarde test of the early 1900s simply validated what we had seen in the Philippines. While some question combat reports, consider the fact that quite a few of these actions resulted in the awarding of the Congressional Medal of Honor. This medal is given only after an investigation and congressional review.
It is quite interesting that those who doubt, as an example, Sgt. Alvin York’s feat of dropping seven enemy soldiers with seven rounds of .45-caliber hardball, would never have taken the issue to his face when he lived. While exemplary, his action is by no means unique. To the best of my knowledge the single greatest combat feat attributed to the .45 ACP cartridge is the neutralizing of 35 enemy soldiers in Europe in a few minutes, in house to house fighting, but I have to state these rounds were fired from a submachinegun.
Before you send the letters in concerning hardball .45, let me say I have seen the effect of .45 hardball. I have experienced a failure of the .45 ACP brought on due to insufficient penetration of a highly recommend expanding bullet load. I have not shot drugged goats that were wired to a machine and seriously doubt anyone else has either.
Female Recruits
If the handgun is limited to non-expanding ammunition, then the .45 is logical. The load of choice must have good primer seal, a crimped primer, and excellent case mouth seal. Careful powder selection in GI .45 ball gives little to no muzzle flash and a clean powder burn. I think we could do much worse than to adopt the Hornady flat nose jacketed bullet that was originally developed for the US Military.
There have been concerns that female recruits cannot handle the .45. If you feel the distaff side cannot handle a .45 you have not attended the graduation and training exercises I have! My daughter-in-law (US Army) has no problem with the .45, and hopes that if the day comes she will be issued the .45. Her brother-in-law, my other son and a US soldier, feels the same, but neither thinks about the pistol much.
The M4, the SAW, and missiles are more important. My son ran daily for four years in high school and emerged as Soldier of the Cycle from basic training, winning the General’s Medal and other commendations as well. As a former sergeant presently in officer’s training, he has learned to swim underwater with a combat load. Occasionally one of the female recruits becomes concerned with having outpaced him on courses.
As an example, when climbing, the Army has taught female soldiers to use their lower body strength more profitably in climbing, which is proportionately greater than a male soldier’s. I have trained reservists as young as 17 years old to handle the .45. They rack the slide easily, and the comments are universal.
Respect Power
They appreciate and respect the power of the .45. They do not desire to run a combat course and find 50 rounds neatly stitched in a circle; we could do that with a .22. They know that the pistol is a last ditch weapon that is designed to quickly get on target and make a stopping blow. The .45 will do so.
Confusing pistol and rifle tactics has led to the adoption of inappropriate gear. As for manipulation and the manual of arms, I have had recruits of both sexes, still in their teens, quickly and properly manipulating the .45. I don’t think that these young men and women should find the .45’s manual of arms a challenge.
After all, they are in fields requiring the use of computer and missile gear considerably more complicated than a single-action pistol. The 1911’s controls are simpler to manipulate than the double-action pistol’s slide-mounted safety. After all, don’t quite a few agencies specify double-action pistols be carried off safe to simplify training?
When addressing the issue of the new .45, it is obvious the pistol will not be a GI-type .45. The new choice will have improved sights and some type of modern finish. I seriously doubt we will see a fully developed tactical pistol on the line of the Springfield Bureau Model. These pistols are expensive and the accuracy demanded is not necessary for general issue.
We can make an accurate pistol or a service pistol. The service pistol should not incorporate a full-length guide rod. The pistol should have a barrel bushing that is only finger tight. The pistol should have the ability to be field-stripped quickly.
Grips/Sights
This can be easily accomplished in a handgun that retains the ability to group five rounds into 4 inches at 25 yards, adequate for the task at hand. The grips will probably be of a space-age material, either Micarta such as the CZ Gator grips or perhaps simpler rubber grips such as the Hogue. The sights will be high visibility units. If Smith & Wesson is a player, the sights will be Novak; if Kimber, they will be McCormick. The finish will probably be a modern Teflon-based self-lubricating finish such as Bear Coat.
There are things about the present service handgun that are good and we do not wish to go backwards in that regard. We should not make the same mistake the military did with the Beretta in accepting substandard magazines for military service. No fault of the pistol, these magazines were not worthy of combat. I believe the Metalform magazine is well-suited to quality mass production and would be a strong choice for the new service pistol.
The present service pistol has shown an ability to resist corrosion due to its finish. A stainless 1911 with a darkened finish or a special coating would be ideal. In police and military service, the Beretta 92 has a good reputation for low rates of accidental discharge (AD). While safety is between the ears, some pistols have a frightening reputation for ADs.
A semi-automatic pistol with no safety, regardless of the trigger action, abrogates many of the advantages of the type. The new pistol should maximize the benefits of modern safety technology. There are basically two types of firing pin locks for the 1911. The Colt Series 80 pistol features a plunger that is activated by trigger compression. The firing pin cannot move forward unless the trigger is pressed completely to the rear.
Second System
Despite naysayers, this system has proven effective and reliable. It is patented and whoever adopts this system must license it from Colt. The second system, used by Kimber and Smith & Wesson, features a firing pin block that operates off of the grip safety. This safety has the advantage of allowing trigger work to be accomplished with no regard to the firing pin block.
The drawback is that if the grip safety is not fully depressed the hammer will fall, but the pistol will not fire. A large grip safety with the proper index will go a long way towards solving that problem. Another option, pursued by several top-end makers, is to adopt a lightweight firing pin with a heavy firing pin spring. This will prevent the firing pin from taking a run forward from inertia if the piece is dropped.
Finally, the piece will not have an adjustable trigger, even if the adjustment screw is epoxied closed at the factory. No, we will not be adopting a GI .45 nor a full-blown custom-quality .45, at least in my opinion, but we will be arming our young warriors with a hell of a pistol. One they deserve.
At present, who are the frontrunners? First, we have to consider production capacity. Some of the custom shops make very nice pistols, and they are highly regarded. But the actual numbers produced are small. At present, both Kimber and Smith & Wesson have the capacity to produce pistols in considerable quantity and they have suitable pistols in production. It may seem strange that Smith & Wesson’s 1911 is considered, but life is nothing but exciting!
The SW1911 and the Kimber Custom II are similar pistols with excellent performance predicted. Each has proven consistent in manufacture, with the repeatability of quality demanded in modern manufacture. Kimber has the inside track, having received military orders from special units.
In history, a few men stand out in the development of the 1911. John Moses Browning designed the piece but Col. John T. Thompson aided in testing the cartridge against living animals and in developing the .45 ACP cartridge. (Thompson also was instrumental in assuring large-scale war production in American plants, notably Remington, during World War I and he is the inventor of the Thompson submachinegun.) Later, Col. Jeff Cooper’s clear incisive writing convinced us of what we already knew; the 1911 .45 is the preeminent combat pistol.
Another colonel, Robert Young, USMC, delivered a pistol to the USMC’s Precision Weapons Section at Quantico, VA, that may define the future of military 1911s. The Marines quite simply demanded the .45 be kept in service for special units, those relying upon the pistol for critical operations.
Young’s pistol featured a standard extractor, a standard recoil plug and guide, Novak sights, a beavertail grip safety, and a trigger compression of 4-5 pounds, clean. Wilson Combat magazines would be used with what became the Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) pistol. Col. Robert Coates later was involved in upgrading the 1911 as well. This pistol is commercially available as the Kimber Warrior, a close approximation of the MEU pistol.
Both Reliable
I have fired both the Kimber and the SW1911 extensively. Each has proven completely reliable given a minimum of maintenance. I have replaced the factory guide rods and recoil springs with a standard guide rod and WC Wolff premium springs. I have experienced no problems with the grip safety activated firing pin block, with one of the Kimber pistols approaching 11,000 rounds of ammunition.
The SW1911 features an external extractor. Not specified in previous military purchases, this extractor may have an advantage in long-term wear and in ease of replacement. It is a simple pin-in unit while standard extractors must be fitted. I believe either company would be wise to consider alternate finishes and features in the upcoming competition.
Of course, there may be a surprise. The Marines, as an example, have considered building their own .45s from quality parts. While largely unheralded and little recognized for their achievements, military pistolsmiths are responsible for originating the great majority of innovations and improvements concerning the 1911, including the successful development of Officer’s Model pistols.
I think the upcoming tests and acquisitions will be interesting. Technically, the armed forces may or may not conduct a test but may simply purchase what they desire out of hand. The top runners will be companies with a proven product and the requisite production capability to meet the armed services demands. The coming months will be interesting.
Support Gear
There are too many good pistol magazines to purchase substandard gear, so we will let that lie. But a number of holsters have gotten my attention that may prove frontrunners for serious use. We are aware various Safariland security holsters are in use by special units. These are good holsters but perhaps a bit expensive for general issue. Two standouts come to mind that are advanced examples of the full flap holsters.
Soldiers on the move, with a long-term front line commitment, require load-bearing gear that protects the weapon. There is nothing to compare to a full flap holster in this regard. London Bridge Trading Company offers a full flap fabric holster of excellent design. The holster features not only a protecting flap but a thumb break release as well. For general use, the flap may be closed.
Paratroops especially have come to appreciate security holsters, as a single retention holster has proven inadequate at times in resisting the shock of a parachute deployment. The London Bridge Trading Company holster features dual retention. Yet, on guard or point duty, the holster flap may be folded back and the result is a modern thumb break holster offering a degree of security and real speed.
DeSantis Leathergoods also offers a flap holster with an inside thumb break. This holster was originally designed to offer rangers and mounted officers full protection to the sidearm. However, when the flap is removed—the flap actually snaps onto the holster—the result is a more or less standard-appearing duty holster with thumb break. I believe that a full flap holster with dual retention would be ideal for all around service.
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"He who fights with monsters might take care, lest he thereby become a monster; For if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - F.Nietzche
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| Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 03:26 PM |
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armoredman
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Hmmm, I would say an expanding 9mm would cause more trauma than a FMJ 45..but, I will never resurrect this dead horse again. I will merely say that I can agree, with FMJ ammo, the 45 is more effective than the 9mm. With modern JHP, the 9mm and 45ACP have very close numbers in relative stopping power. I had 1911s on my ship that rattled like castanets, worked 100% of the time, but couldn't hit the barn from the inside.
I'll stick with my PO1, with good quality JHP ammo. If I had to carry a 45, it's be a SiG P220.
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| Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 03:42 PM |
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| Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 03:43 PM |
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saddlesore
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Assuming the same type of bullet used. One only has to look at the energy delivered between the two to see the vast difference.
I believe " Stopping Power" is purely a subjective topic.
About the same discussions to why a .338 mag will not stop and elk if placed wrong and a .243 will if placed right.
I have 38's , 9mm, .357 mags, 44 mags, and 45's. In a confrontation, which I hope never to have, I would definitely feel more comforatble with the .357 or 45.
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| Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 04:34 PM |
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Gunrunner
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Whatever pistol or caliber the military issues, the troops better be taught how to use it proficiently. No bullet is worth squat if it doesn't hit it's target.
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| Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 05:57 PM |
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billt
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I don't own or shoot 9MM, but I wouldn't want to take one in the chest either! The 9 MM loaded with modern Jacketed Hollow Point ammunition is a very effective stopper. But that being said the .45 wins out because the same high quality ammo is made for it as well. Federal "Hydra-Shok" .45 ACP ammo has been rated for 96% 1 shot stops. Thats pretty tough to beat. Only the .357 Magnum with 125 Gr. Jacketed Hollow Points is right up there with it. Bill T.
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| Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 09:08 PM |
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caz223
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If limited to a FMJ projectile the 9mm may be an effective at wounding/killing, but the .45 would be a more effective stopper...
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| Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 10:20 PM |
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Charley
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The big bore has proven to be more effective than a small bore pistol cartridge time and again. The Thompson LaGarde test of the early 1900s simply validated what we had seen in the Philippines. While some question combat reports, consider the fact that quite a few of these actions resulted in the awarding of the Congressional Medal of Honor.
God, somebody quoting the Holy Tests again. Somehow, shooting less than a dozen beef animals with six different cartridges doesn't inpress me. The cadaver tests were purely subjective, based on "How much do you THINK they moved when hit.
For the Phillipines, we all remember how the .38 Long Colt failed to stop the juramentado Moros. we don't remember how those same combat reports also often show the .30 USA (AKA .30/40 Krag) failed to stop them as a did 12 bore shotguns loaded with buckshot.
IF I weer restricted to ball ammunition, I would carry nothing but a .45 ACP, I'm not, and I don't.
In ball,..45 ACP beats the 9x19. With modern, well designed expanding bullets, I have no problem trusting my life to the 9x19.
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| Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 10:48 PM |
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billt
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If the 9 MM has it over the .45 ACP it's in the area of ammo cost. 9 MM can be bought in bulk quite cheaply. About the cheapest I've gotten .45 ACP for was $8.35 a box from Natchez, (Blazer Brass which is boxer primed and fully reloadable). That comes out to $167.00 a thousand + shipping. Just under $200.00 a thousand total. 9 MM can be had for considerably less. That means you can practice more with a 9 MM if your on a tight budget. More practice equals out to a better, more accurate shooter. Those are usually the guys who survive in a gun fight, not necessarly the guy with the biggest piece. Bill T.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18th, 2006 10:21 AM |
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Blackhat
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Have any of you 9mm people ever tried shooting a 3/4" thick, free standing, metal silhouette? (Ram) I have from about 25 yards. A 9mm will not even knock the damn thing over consistantly! A 45ACP will do it every time. At least the silhouette I use. The bottom line is a pistol simply does not develope enough velocity to be reliable in self defense, unless you want to carry a loooooong barrel. So you have to make up for it with a larger diameter or longer case/more powder ie. 45 or 357. Having said that, if all I had was a 9mm to fend off an attacker, I would gladly pull it and aim. But I would do the same with a BB gun!
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18th, 2006 01:04 PM |
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Timberghozt
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I have used both when I was an active duty soldier.We still had 1911`s when I was in Germany and our gunners and bc`s carried them during Desert Storm.
I seen the 9mm`s come in and personally I liked the accuracy of the M9 but I still felt more confident in a one shot down with a 45.Both of em will do the job but given the restriction of ball ammo by the Geneva Convention,my money goes to the 45 ACP hands down...
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18th, 2006 04:12 PM |
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BigBill
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Well were finding out right now with the latest on going war the 9mm isn't working, its not stopping the bad guys as fast as the 45acp has in the past. We went to the 9mm mainly because with nato it was there common pistol caliber so we can use each others ammo. Now it sounds like were reissuing the 45acp again slowly but surely are special ops and forces are using it right now. I think in the near future everyone will be using the 45acp again in our armed forces anyway.
I think the 357mag is as good as it gets in stopping the bad guys in there tracks.
Were also having stopping problems with the 223/5,56 in the war but thats another discussion.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18th, 2006 05:57 PM |
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Charley
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If restricted to non-expanding ball, I can't see the .357 as much more effective than the 9x19 ball. .38 Super, which was one of the last major autopistol cartridges to be mainstreamed with expanding bullets always had a terrible reputation for over penetration and poor stopping ability.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18th, 2006 08:17 PM |
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BigBill
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I think the 357mag/sig rounds are better than the 9mm because of its speed, its penetration and effectiveness. The 9mm was chosen for law enforcement here because of its magazine capacity/firepower but it fell short on effectiveness. This is where the 40cal and 45acp is a much better round at stopping the bad guys. Now the 357SIG came along and we have the ballastics of the 357mag in an auto pistol with the 125gr JHP bullets. Again hitting your target in the correct place with any caliber handgun does matter too.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18th, 2006 08:31 PM |
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Blackhat
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Hey Timberghost, I love the old 1911 too, but it's a little too heavy for me. My money is on a Glock or one of the new synthetics ie. a Springfield, etc. And of coarse a 45ACP or even a 40 S&W. Although I haven't heard much from law enforcment on the 40 S&W stopping power. Have you?
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19th, 2006 12:55 AM |
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Timberghozt
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Hey BlackHat..I have a .40 I carry.I can`t say how much knockdown power it would have over the 9mm but I would think it would be a bit better.Haven`t spoken with any LEO`s that have had to us it in self defense to say.I did use it on a doe and it smacked the hell out of her.Lots of difference between a 100 pound doe and a 250 pound meth head when he is hopped up too though.With 165 CORBON hp`s in it,I feel pretty confident carrying it,but like you,when everything goes south and as a last resort I have to shoot,I`d rather have that big 1911 in my hand ...
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"He who fights with monsters might take care, lest he thereby become a monster; For if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - F.Nietzche
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19th, 2006 12:39 PM |
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Charley
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SAPD has been carrying Glocks in .40 S&W for a quite a few years now. Have not heard of any failures to stop. According to the reports I have seen, one or two rounds is stopping almost everything that needs stopping.
Percentage of hits seems t be way up over the old days when .41s and .357s were issue. Wether better training, or better ergonomics, I can't say.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19th, 2006 05:10 PM |
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18th Post |
BigBill
Master Ballistician and Handloader
| Joined: | Fri Apr 22nd, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 932 |
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Isn't the 357SIG slowly becomming popular with the LEO's lately? I have read about the performance of the 357SIG being unmatched today against all the other auto calibers the LEO's have used in the past. On the net there are a few different articles on the 357SIG's performance with the LEO's talking about it, its a real world field test against the bad guys. In Texas its been a 100% performer against stopping the violent bad guys and a 99% performer in Delaware too all by LEO's with on the job experience with it. They have actually said that nothing worked this good in the past too. I'm not so sure but the new buzz word just maybe 357SIG?
These little bottle necked cases seem to evolve in Europe thru the many years starting with the 7,62Tokarev, 30 mauser, 30 luger and 7,65 mauser. I think the 357SIG is a 7,62 Tokarev round on steroids. Here in the US the little commie round of 7,62x25 is just gaining popularity now. Do most of us shun the commie rounds? You bet we do and why i don't have a clue. Just look at the 100 year old 9,3 X 62 and 9,3 x 64 rifle calibers they have been preforming great in africa and austrailia for 100 years now with big game hunters and there just getting noticed here in the US now. Could it be we don't like to see change comming or anything different comming from Europe and the other countries that are across the pond. I know the americans have been very slow to accept millimeters too its that bad "MM"'s that stops us in our tracks everytime too. Sorry but thats another story/post too.
I don't have any experience with the new calibers like the 10mm, 40mm and the 357SIG. Many years ago i seen the ballastic charts and comparing the 3 auto's of 45acp, 10mm, and 40mm the old reliabile 1911a1 in 45acp with +p ammo still had a tad more in ballastics than everything else had. Today everything could be different too but i can remember that when they offered these new calibers years ago.
Now picking a 45acp or 9mm to carry for personal protection. In a war situation where your life is on the line every minute I perfer the 1911a1 in 45acp. Don't forget its a different war too these brave guys are going house to house in searches for the bad guys where the risk is very high its do or die at any second. Plus these bad guys are so bent and pumped up on killing americans they just don't give up until there completely dead. I think a 1911a1 45acp with a double stack mag would do fine that gives them 14rds of 45acp. Sometimes i wonder why we give up something thats been battle proven for many years. We seem to test and design our armored vechicles much better than the weapons we give our soldiers.
To be honest i can't pick one caliber to carry all the time. I go from a 9mm, to a 357mg to a 45acp constantly and end up packin the 44mg inbetween. But lately you guys are getting me more into auto's. In the end i hope i never need to make a split second decision to use it if my family or i am in danger.
Last edited on Mon Jun 19th, 2006 05:31 PM by BigBill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2006 11:39 AM |
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19th Post |
Blackhat
HB Life Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | New Braunfels, Texas USA |
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Hey Bigbill, we have a saying where I work ; There is a right way, a wrong way, and then there is my way. I think this pertains to your statement about American vs the commie calibers. I think we all forget the comparison between rifle cartriges and pistol cartriges. Bullet weight multiplied by velocity equals stopping power. A 22-250 would be a dud if the 55 gr. bullet wasn't cruising at 3600 fps. And likewise a .458 Win. Mag. would be a dud, at 100 yds., if the 500 gr. bullet was only traveling at 700fps. ,although I still wouldn't want to be hit by it. That is why the 44 & 41 mags. outshine most pistol calibers as far as stopping power. But who wants to carry one on them all day long. That is why I think the 9mm stinks, it doesn't have much of either, velocity or bullet weight. This all has something to do with they call inertia. This is also why I personally don't care for hollow point bullets in any of the auto's. I suppose thay are OK if you had to only penetrate a few layers of cotton cloth, but penetrating a leather jacket and baggie of some crack heads' dope in their pocket first, is another thing. The hollow points in pistol bullets expand too fast and thus loose their "momentum". Remember the North Hollywood bank robbers. In the film clips, the cops pistol bullets weren't phasing them. But if the cops would have been using a 30-06 with military FMJ bullets, it would have been another matter. The bullets would not have penetrated the Kevlar, but the shock from the impact would have knocked the <#%@#$! out of them!
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20th, 2006 01:25 PM |
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20th Post |
Charley
Board Founder
| Joined: | Fri Sep 9th, 2005 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 6136 |
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Have any of you 9mm people ever tried shooting a 3/4" thick, free standing, metal silhouette? (Ram) I have from about 25 yards. A 9mm will not even knock the damn thing over consistantly! A 45ACP will do it every time.
Thank God those roving bands of silhoutte targets are not the problem they once were. I'll remember to carry a .45 ACP if they become troublesome again.
People are not hard plates of steel, and "momentum", "inertia" ,"footpounds of energy" or even "relative incapacitation index" are not reliable indicators of how a bullet/cartridge combination will affect a human. Anybody that relies on "stopping power" from a handgun cartridge is a fool. Handgun bullets stop people by damaging tissue, period. The bullet can be light and fast (9x19) or heavy and slower (.45 ACP). If it doesn't do massive damage to vital organs, it will not stop a determined attacker, no matter what.
About the only measure you can reliably count on is the results of ACTUAL shootings, which are hardly labratory controled. Hard to find 10 people willing to be shot as a control group, and 10 people willing to be shot to test a load. Marshall and Sanow seem to have the best comparisons between bullet/cartridge combinations, but even their data cannot be taken as a 100% truthful picture of what WILL happen.
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