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resqdan
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 14 November 2007 |
| Location: | North Dakota USA |
| Posts: | 53 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | rifle |
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Posted: 21 February 2008 05:16 PM |
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| I was just reading through some CC forums and alot say stick with factory ammo for liability reasons.. whats the reason for this.. if i can buy the same ammo that i reload i cant see the problem..
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All you tree hugging liberals ... sleep well under the blanket of freedom the american soldier provides for you!!
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hardjeepguy
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 9 January 2008 |
| Location: | North Brookfield, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 33 |
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Posted: 21 February 2008 07:54 PM |
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Stick with what you're comfortable with. I personally only CC with home rolled ammo, as I know how it will perform. I've heard others say use only factory stuff too, but it seems to be the folks who don't trust their own ability to produce reliable and effective ammunition.
Jamie
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wheezengeezer
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 16 July 2007 |
| Location: | Jeddediah Jones Swamp, Kansas USA |
| Posts: | 609 |
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Posted: 21 February 2008 07:56 PM |
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resqdan wrote: I was just reading through some CC forums and alot say stick with factory ammo for liability reasons.. whats the reason for this.. if i can buy the same ammo that i reload i cant see the problem..
i agree with you.in kansas if the law determines that someone had legal justification they are off the hook.the law blocks a civil lawsuit.
____________________
I was raised in the 50's on gunpowder and jackrabbits.salt and pepper wooda made'em taste better
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Charley
Administrator
| Joined: | 9 September 2005 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2207 |
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Posted: 21 February 2008 10:07 PM |
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Constant argueing on the 'net on this subject. Massad Ayoob seems to be the one who has the strongest arguements for factory loads, including an ocasioal precedent where someone's handloads have caused them trouble in court. Some dismiss Ayoob, ridiculing him as a "part time wannabe cop". I don't, the guy makes his living writing AND as an expert witness regarding firearms use and training. I suspect he's seen some things in court that do ring alarm bells when it comes to ammunition selection.
The laws that limit liability when using deadly force (usually a part of a "castle doctrine" oir "stand your ground" law) seem to limit yiour exposure when using handloads. Remember, Ayoob's traing and background mostly involves northeastern states, hardly a gun friendly area. It makes good sense to folow his recommendations in that area of the country, he seems to be quite familiar with the "mood of the courts", and the probabilty that any jury will be very unfamiliar with firearms anyway, never mind handloading.
I carry factory, even in gun friendly Texas, even with a castle law that shields me (at least partially) from liability, as long as the use of deadly force was justified.
Why? I've spent enough time in court, as a juror, witness, and defendant to know that absolutely NOTHING is written in stone, and absolutely NOTHING is 100%. The fewer openings you leave attorneys to exploit, the more likely you are to prevail.
Folks tend to get very emotional on this subject. Use what you want, it's nothing to me.
____________________
"You all can go to Hell, I'm going to Texas" David Crockett (and probably George Bush)
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sniper-66
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 6 November 2007 |
| Location: | Topeka, Kansas USA |
| Posts: | 89 |
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Posted: 23 February 2008 02:45 AM |
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The problem with home rolled ammo is that a good lawyer will try to show that you are building cop killer bullets, whatever those are. Supposedly, it shows premeditation if you make your own bullets to kill someone.
The other problem is that law enforcement needs a OFB to positively identify a gun. Yes, the primer is new, but that is only part of the recipe for identifying a gun. Brass that has been through a sizing die, couple of weapons casts doubt on ability to identify the gun. I know this beause a good friend had her house shot up by an ex boyfriend, the brass was collected, but they told us that it wouldn't be worth processing.
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wheezengeezer
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 16 July 2007 |
| Location: | Jeddediah Jones Swamp, Kansas USA |
| Posts: | 609 |
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Posted: 23 February 2008 08:15 AM |
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| well i cant argue with Massad,but with my income buying factory stuff is like bying an expensive bottle.if a person was shooting the latest and greatest deadly factory ammo,isnt that premeditation as well? in some states the thought "better judged by 12 than carried by 6" may be the only comfort one has when using a firearm in self defense.i just dont live in one.
____________________
I was raised in the 50's on gunpowder and jackrabbits.salt and pepper wooda made'em taste better
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Charley
Administrator
| Joined: | 9 September 2005 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2207 |
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Posted: 24 February 2008 04:37 AM |
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I don't even want to be judged by 12. I want the local LEOs and DA to influnce the grand jury to return a no true bill decision!
From what I've read, factory ammunition selection, even some of the exotics, isn't a problem, particularly if a law enforcement agency uses it.
____________________
"You all can go to Hell, I'm going to Texas" David Crockett (and probably George Bush)
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wheezengeezer
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 16 July 2007 |
| Location: | Jeddediah Jones Swamp, Kansas USA |
| Posts: | 609 |
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Posted: 25 February 2008 01:03 PM |
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Charley wrote: I don't even want to be judged by 12. I want the local LEOs and DA to influnce the grand jury to return a no true bill decision!
From what I've read, factory ammunition selection, even some of the exotics, isn't a problem, particularly if a law enforcement agency uses it.
AGREED!!! it is just a fact that some states are a lot more hostile when you shoot some poor victim of society when they are trying to make you one as well.as i have said before,KANSAS has a pretty good law.
____________________
I was raised in the 50's on gunpowder and jackrabbits.salt and pepper wooda made'em taste better
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Charley
Administrator
| Joined: | 9 September 2005 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2207 |
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Posted: 25 February 2008 01:45 PM |
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I think the best bet is to learn the laws and statues of your state, and also the mood of the courts. Texas has some pretty good laws regarding the use of deadly force, but any trial is a crap shoot. I want the odds on my side that things will never go beyond the grand jury review, because, frankly, even when you win in court you lose monitarily and mentaly thru stress.
Non factory ammo just gives plaintiff's attorney one more tool. As handloaders, we KNOW the difference between factory and our handloads isn't that great. Jury members don't. Don't believe that bullshit about how council "just wants a fair jury". Both sides want a jury they can manipulate the way they want! If plaintiff's attorney can paint you as a sociopath who wants deadlier ammunition, he will! Nothing personal, you understand, just "doing his job".
____________________
"You all can go to Hell, I'm going to Texas" David Crockett (and probably George Bush)
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sako06
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 22 July 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 494 |
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Posted: 25 February 2008 04:20 PM |
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| Police officers carry new factory ammo and anyone with a ccw should do the same imo backed up by 30+ years of liability classes and working in the court system you need to CYA .You can use your home rolled whiz bangs & be found liable with a judgement of a million dollars awarded to the 'grieving widow 'of the adam henry you removed from the gene pool .You can lose your home ,vehicles,toys & go back to working 2 or 3 jobs to pay off the judgement!
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resqdan
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 14 November 2007 |
| Location: | North Dakota USA |
| Posts: | 53 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | rifle |
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Posted: 25 February 2008 05:18 PM |
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I am sorry i still dont get it.. if i load the exact same bullet with the same powder as factory and the only reason i do it is because i am a reloader and it saves money and i have the tools to do it .. how in the hell can that be held against me... as for the cops the only reason they use factory is take the liabilty off them if a round doesnt go off or something else weird happens.. and probably like the one post previous said that when they clean up the brass they can tell which came from what gun..
as for me i dont think i have a factory load in the house for my pistols.. I am gonna visit with some more peeps about this.. and see what they say.. it just doesnt make sense yet.. i mean whats next if i stab someone with a homeade knife in self defense can that be held against me..
____________________
All you tree hugging liberals ... sleep well under the blanket of freedom the american soldier provides for you!!
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Charley
Administrator
| Joined: | 9 September 2005 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2207 |
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Posted: 25 February 2008 07:22 PM |
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Don't look for the legal system to make much sense. Example:
In October of 2002 or thereabouts, I went bird shooting with a friend. Out all day, some miles away from town. I dropped him off at 9:40 PM or so, and headed home. At 10:00 PM, a 16 year old kid, on an unlighted, non street legal bicycle, wearing dark clothes, ran a red traffic signal and I knocked the little SOB almost 60 feet. God held his hamd over the boy, and he wasn't killed. (actually, he got off damned light, broken leg, wrist, and assorted scrapes and bumps).
They airlifed the kid out. In the SAPD incident report, the cause of accident was listed as "cyclist/ped at fault". Sure he was. Momma let hin ride a non street legal BMX bike, three miles from home at 10:00 PM.
Guess who got sued?
Insurance company settled before we went to trial, for a rediculously small amount. Attorney didn't even make his expenses back. That was the good part!
Trust me, the cost of factory defense loads will be much cheaper than your attorney's fees, even though you might be iin the right. The legal system is what it is, and it will chew you up and spit you out if you don't take precautions.
____________________
"You all can go to Hell, I'm going to Texas" David Crockett (and probably George Bush)
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wheezengeezer
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 16 July 2007 |
| Location: | Jeddediah Jones Swamp, Kansas USA |
| Posts: | 609 |
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Posted: 26 February 2008 01:17 AM |
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resqdan wrote: I am sorry i still dont get it.. if i load the exact same bullet with the same powder as factory and the only reason i do it is because i am a reloader and it saves money and i have the tools to do it .. how in the hell can that be held against me... as for the cops the only reason they use factory is take the liabilty off them if a round doesnt go off or something else weird happens.. and probably like the one post previous said that when they clean up the brass they can tell which came from what gun..
as for me i dont think i have a factory load in the house for my pistols.. I am gonna visit with some more peeps about this.. and see what they say.. it just doesnt make sense yet.. i mean whats next if i stab someone with a homeade knife in self defense can that be held against me..
from one state to another;laws differ !!! one you will be safe,another you will be dammned!!
____________________
I was raised in the 50's on gunpowder and jackrabbits.salt and pepper wooda made'em taste better
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sako06
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 22 July 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 494 |
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Posted: 26 February 2008 04:26 PM |
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| Do what you want but I'll never carry handloads in my ccw listed weapons I had liability classes for 32 years as a peace officer. If you shoot a perp in self defense & he gets an atty or the survivors get one your ammo will be tested by the defense & prosecution.New factory ammo uses a different powder than a handloader can acquire & it has tags in it so it can be identified.We were told to CYA using factory ammo it's one less obstacle you won't have to deal with if the perp & family take the case to court.
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sako06
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 22 July 2007 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 494 |
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Posted: 26 February 2008 04:26 PM |
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| Do what you want but I'll never carry handloads in my ccw listed weapons I had liability classes for 32 years as a peace officer. If you shoot a perp in self defense & he gets an atty or the survivors get one your ammo will be tested by the defense & prosecution.New factory ammo uses a different powder than a handloader can acquire & it has tags in it so it can be identified.We were told to CYA using factory ammo it's one less obstacle you won't have to deal with if the perp & family take the case to court.
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wheezengeezer
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 16 July 2007 |
| Location: | Jeddediah Jones Swamp, Kansas USA |
| Posts: | 609 |
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Posted: 29 February 2008 06:10 PM |
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| when did factory ammo start using taggants?
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I was raised in the 50's on gunpowder and jackrabbits.salt and pepper wooda made'em taste better
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jjb2
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 5 July 2007 |
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| Posts: | 341 |
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Posted: 29 February 2008 07:14 PM |
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wheezengeezer wrote: when did factory ammo start using taggants?
ya when??
altho i never anticipate having to shoot anyone i have thought of another aspect.. if i do the offender WILL die at the scene... it's hard to tell how screwed you might be if a shot up or crippled POOR LOST SOUL goes to court against you................
LIFE IS SHORT................................................
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Charley
Administrator
| Joined: | 9 September 2005 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2207 |
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Posted: 29 February 2008 09:58 PM |
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jjb2 wrote: wheezengeezer wrote: when did factory ammo start using taggants?
ya when??
altho i never anticipate having to shoot anyone i have thought of another aspect.. if i do the offender WILL die at the scene... it's hard to tell how screwed you might be if a shot up or crippled POOR LOST SOUL goes to court against you................
LIFE IS SHORT................................................
To my knowledge, there are no taggants in propellants. The Feds tried to mandate taggants several years back, but they badly affected the safety and ballistics of ammunition. What factory loads DO have is a consistent residue signature from lot to lot. That might have been what was said originally.
I wouldn't rapsodize about shooting someone in an open forum,and talking about their death. I'm sure you MEANT to say you would shoot to stop the aggressor's actions. If he dies, that is a shame...
Last edited on 29 February 2008 09:59 PM by Charley
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"You all can go to Hell, I'm going to Texas" David Crockett (and probably George Bush)
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resqdan
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 14 November 2007 |
| Location: | North Dakota USA |
| Posts: | 53 |
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Posted: 1 March 2008 01:09 PM |
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Thanks for all the input guys... Its not that i wound not carry a factoy load i just wanted to make sure there was a reason for it and not just some myth pass along. I still dont understand how in a court of law i would be view as someone out looking for a fight just because i reload my own ammo when i can go to my loacal sporting goods store and buy ammo that is specifically designed for home defense (shooting someone) and that is ok.. sounds to me like anyone who lost in that situation maybe had a bad lawer, but i agree if its just one less thing they can try to get an angle on you with, than better safe than sorry..
thanks again... i am off to buy some factory for my .45 i guess.. lol
____________________
All you tree hugging liberals ... sleep well under the blanket of freedom the american soldier provides for you!!
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engine4on
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 27 February 2008 |
| Location: | Kaufman, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 13 |
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Posted: 1 March 2008 03:42 PM |
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Hey resqdan, another thing to think about is to rotate your carry ammo. As a Reserve LEO I qualify every year and I shoot up the ammo that I carried on duty and replace it with fresh ammo.
Just my $.02
Timbo
Last edited on 1 March 2008 03:42 PM by engine4on
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