sako06
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Ca black bear hunters used to tree a bear then use a high standard 22 cal pistol to shoot it in the heart & wait for it to drop from the tree dead,it wasn't legal but it worked.
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sako06
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With the casull you can use 45 colt ammo and have a comfortable deadly load.
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sako06
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missoula,mt per friends who reside there cattle shelters aren't closed in due to mild winters
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KB88
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miestro_jerry wrote: I remember the 454 Casull ammo that was out, maybe it still is, it was a 3 layer powder load and was very hot, but "did not blow up" the pistol.
I think I would use a 300 grain bullet with 27.5 grains of 296 powder this should be pushing 1,500 fps.
Jerry
How do you do a three layer powder load, and what kind of velocity did it make?
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 01:41 AM |
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3006 user
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KB88 wrote: miestro_jerry wrote: I remember the 454 Casull ammo that was out, maybe it still is, it was a 3 layer powder load and was very hot, but "did not blow up" the pistol.
I think I would use a 300 grain bullet with 27.5 grains of 296 powder this should be pushing 1,500 fps.
Jerry
How do you do a three layer powder load, and what kind of velocity did it make?
P.O. Ackley, in his "Supplement to to the Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders"-1959, describes the ".454 Magnum" as follows "This is one of the most powerful revolver cartridges ever developed." Built on a Colt SA, modified with a special high tensile heat treated five shot cylinders. Using .45 Colt cases modified to accept Remington 9 1/2 primers, the powder charges were triplex and duplex,using compression to keep the layers from mixing.
He used Unique, 2400, and Bullseye in that order to get 2000fps with a 230gr bullet. With a 250 he used Unique, 2400, and Unique for 1890fps. 300gr w/2400 and Unique for 1710fps.
A converted Winchester 92 jacked the velocity with 230gr bullet to 2315fps, and the 250 to 2185.
I don't think I should print the powder weights for fear somebody might try them. I believe that a .454 Casull revolver wouldn't like them!!
This cartridge was developed by Jack Fullmer and Dick Casull of Salt Lake City back in the 50s.
I wonder how many good old Colts were sacrificed in the development of this round...
Last edited on Thu Sep 10th, 2009 01:48 AM by 3006 user
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 12:28 PM |
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klallen
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KB88 wrote: Are there circumstances where a lower energy, but heavier bullet will penetrate better than a higher energy, lightweight bullet?
morning, kb88. bullet design will probably be the primary factor in a penetration question like this. obviously, you take a slow (relatively speaking) 400 gr. cast solid from cast performance rolling along around 1400 fps from a .454 and put it up against a jacketed 230 - 240 gr. bullet going 2000 fps, i believe the cast would indeed out penetrate the expanding bullet. the second inpact happens and expansion starts, velocity and energy are being dumped as well as weight, if the bullet sheds mass. not necessarily a bad thing, depending on the animal you're hitting but it's a combination of things that will effect a cartridges penetration ability. compared with a cast, that will have very little (to no) deformity upon impact and retain its entire weight at it proceeds through the target, there is indeed a circumstance with slow, heavy will certainly out penetrate fast, light.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10th, 2009 12:32 PM |
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klallen
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KB88 wrote: miestro_jerry wrote: I remember the 454 Casull ammo that was out, maybe it still is, it was a 3 layer powder load and was very hot, but "did not blow up" the pistol.
I think I would use a 300 grain bullet with 27.5 grains of 296 powder this should be pushing 1,500 fps.
Jerry
How do you do a three layer powder load, and what kind of velocity did it make?
don't consider it, kb88. the return isn't worth the risk. if you consider 3006user's data posted, there are a couple single powder loads that achieve velocities posted from the revolver for the 230 - 240 weight class. you'll get close matching the proper powder to the heavies, as well. with modern powders, double or triple powder stacking is a process that simply serves no purpose, in my opinion.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20th, 2009 03:52 PM |
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KB88
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Forgive my igorance - what is the risk associated with loading three layers of powder?
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21st, 2009 02:37 PM |
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klallen
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nothing ignorant about it, kb. good question, actually. and one i can't really give a good answer to. it's just something that doesn't feel right. in my opinion, there's an inherent risk to combining powders. different burn rates and such. kinda like how you'll here on these handloading sites folks take great care so that different powders aren't mixed at the bench for storage (i.e. only having one powder on the bench or open on the bench at a time). measures to ensure mixing doesn't happen makes sense to me. intentionally mixing powders in a case atop a fresh primer doesn't make sense. all in attempts (possibly failed attempts) just to squeek out a few more fps. with what can be accomplished with single powders these days, it's just an unnecessary risk. not a good answer i know, but it's all i have. later. k
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19th, 2009 01:35 AM |
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TnTom
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KB88 wrote: What's the safest maximum loading that can be used for the .454 casull?
KB,
I shoot the .454 and really have to say the recoil is intense.
More importantly if your looking for the max load as said earlier in this post it's important that you choose your firearm maker with that in mind.
The cylinder is the Taurus does not handle loads with powders like Win231 well at all. Ruger and Freedom Arms have the strength to withstand any of the recommended loads (stick closely to the manual loads when shooting this caliper). Taurus has not resolved the cylinder expansion problem yet and you will experience a lot of difficulty ejecting the empties. The cylinder expands when fired and contract on a fat case. PAIN IN THE ASS.
Consider the .470 Limbaugh in Freedom Arms for a really special weapon that can handle it all. In my opinion its the finest hand gun made. Well worth the wait,
The .500 S/W if you shoot it a lot can injure your wrist, elbow and shoulder. You will feel discomfort days later and that's a sign to watch yourself and recognize when its time to put it down.
I like the Casull and with a good glove you can burn a lot of rounds and not get jumpy
The max load is the one the manual says is max.
Tom
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19th, 2009 06:44 AM |
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miestro_jerry
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I shoot the 444 Marlin in a Contender Super 14, but I have other barrels and guns.
Compare this Data:
Super 14 444 Marlin 250 grain bullet 1600 fps energy at muzzle 1420 pounds
Super 14 44 Mag 250 grain bullet 1475 fps energy at muzzle 1200 pounds
Super 14 454 Casull 255 gain bullet 1750 fps energy at the muzzle 1733 pounds
Encore 15 500 S&W Mag 375 grain bullet 1733 fps energy at the muzzle 2500 pounds
These are all cast bullets with GCs.
It all depends on your uses and desires. I am over having the largest mule kickin pistol on the block. My Super 14 in 444 Marlin has Pachmyr Decelerators on it. If I need more than one shot and don't have time to reload, I do carry a 44 Mag Blackhawk on my hip or sometimes 1 carry my 357 Mag L Frame.
It depends on what you want to do and what investment you want to make and much kick you want to absorb, but before you take something like the 500 Mag out hunting, invest in a box of ammo, factory or reloads go to the range to get use to the recoil and the report.
Good Luck,
Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19th, 2009 02:59 PM |
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52nd Post |
sako06
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A couple of years ago while talking with the owner of bullberry barrels he told me about a friend who was firing his 500 and all was proceeding fine until he fired one round that seemed a bit more powerful it was it broke his wrist.I'm not interested in loads or handguns that can create injuries to me!I ceased firing Winchester Partition Gold ammo in my 15 inch encore pistol it created too much torque to my hands and wrist and for sure I'll never fire any of the magtech 260gr jacketed flat point ammo in the 15 inch pistol after experiences I've had with it using the 20" bullberry rifle barrel it has really heavy recoil.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19th, 2009 03:19 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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Sako,
I limit my Contenders & Encores to some realistic loads and the one I use for hunting is my 444 Marlin, normally using 44 Mag in it.
The biggest bang doesn't mean the best hunting and after one shot I may not want to take the second with some calibers. That is why I recommend to people to go out and practice. At least 50 rounds in 5 shot strings, at a deer size target at 50 yards. If the shooters accuracy decreases after the first shot, then go to a lower charge in the load.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19th, 2009 04:15 PM |
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TnTom
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Another great cartridge is the .480 Ruger in a Super Redhawk (after you send the gun to Magnaport).
If your plan is to hunt with the gun the recoil becomes a little less of an issue as its not like your firing round after round. Develop a sense of confidence that you aren't going to flinch and the big bores are great.
If your going to use it for target punching, or bowling pin type of events the .44 mag is a lot of fun.
Your hear folks say like with the Casull that you can shoot .45LC to keep the recoil down which in my opinion makes the purchase really counter productive.
If money is no object and you don't mind having to wait a while seriously consider the Freedom Arms .475 Limbaugh. It is far more superior in quality than any over the counter handgun offered and the craftsmanship is unparalleled. With the economy in the crapper they are even coming available used and you can get one for a pretty good price.
Attachment: scope-sling.gif (Downloaded 22 times) Last edited on Sat Dec 19th, 2009 04:27 PM by TnTom
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19th, 2009 04:27 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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With many of these big boomer, I would have them ported and also mill the front sight off, then thread the barrel, and put a compensator on the gun.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19th, 2009 04:48 PM |
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TnTom
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miestro_jerry wrote: With many of these big boomer, I would have them ported and also mill the front sight off, then thread the barrel, and put a compensator on the gun.
Jerry I see no reason to mill of the front sight. Magnaport has options that provide the recoil reduction one hopes to achieve without doing that. The porting job they did on my Alaskan (it couldn't be dual ported because of the barrel liner) reduced the recoil by at least 40 percent.
I think Smith offers their .500 with an option that lets you add or remove the compensator and not have to mess it up with any milling. At a $1000.00 a pop (no pun intended) that would be a hard sell. It comes with a front sight and compensator.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19th, 2009 07:12 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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If you can afford to play with the big boomers, then you have to go all out. Smith does have a compensator on their 500 Mag, but there are already better compensators in the aftermarket companies.
My 340 PD cost about what the 500 Mag pistol so price is not a relevant issue, one of the best handgun hunters in the world has come up with several better and much more powerful rounds and his pistols cost a lot more than the S&W 500 Mag in some cases. My hands don't hurt as bad after shooting his guns. J.D. Jones has Safaried with a Contender taking very large game over many years.
For the S&W 500 Mag, I would put the new Barrett compensator on it, which would require some machining. For this size of pistol a scope or a holographic sight would muct better than old style pistol sight. I would have the T'SOB scope mount system put on the S&W pistol.
I have put thousands in to Rifles to make them better shooters, as well as a ton of money into Contenders to make those big boomers much more useful. A grand a pop, isn't that much in the world of big boomers.
Myself, a Super Redhawk in 44 Mag that is properly tricked out and has a 2 power scope on it is all that I would need for most game hunting. As that Ruger offers the Super Redhawk in 454 Casulls, I would entertain using that caliber. But you have a grand tied up in that pistol also.
This is an expensive proposition, plus you need really good leather to carry such a pistol. I think a chest type of holster would be best, especially if you going to carry this any distances. Or may have a custom comfortable sling made for this pistol.
Except the possibility of a Grizzly Bear or some other powerful, large and really upset critter, the 44 Mag can do a lot of good hunting.
Why does any one need a revolver? What do you use the extra bullets for? One shoot is all you really need.
I am not saying don't buy one of these Thunder Boomers, but look at the need for it, what you can do to it to make it more accurate and what accessories that are required to support the weapon. Plus the reloading needs for such pistols. If you are deer hunting with a 500 Mag, what is the cost per shot versus other calibers. Even moose hunting, I would look at the cost factors of the ammo for the gains over other calibers.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19th, 2009 10:28 PM |
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58th Post |
TnTom
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For myself a thousand dollar is a significant investment (my wife has another name for it ) and I cant imagine what could be done to a Performance Center product that would begin to warrant an "aftermarket" add on, that might enhance accuracy or reduce re-coil or about anything else that S/W hasn't already done.
Rugers .480 came to the market in 2003 with no porting which seemed a little short sighted so it went out to Magnaport after I shot it the first time. That was an extra $120.
Modifying for example a F/A .500 Wyoming Express would be like sending the Mona Lisa out for a touch up. Maybe adding a quality scope. They will build it for you with or without some type of compensation.
As far as cost per round goes does it really enter into the equation when investing a $1K or more to begin with? It really seems like a mute issue if a person is going to spend top dollar for a firearm.
As for revolvers, years ago I was hunting boar in northern Ca. I fired a round of .44 mag hitting him good but he didn't go down. I lost my footing and slide down a 20' embankment as he was coming on with a full head of steam. I fired my second shot sitting on my backside legs wide open and fortunately dropped him dead..about 2' in front of me. It all took place in about 20 seconds. Without a second shot my wife would have really been pissed.
I agree it only takes one shot (most of the time) but its sure nice to have an extra round on hand when you need it (especially when the family jewels are on the line.  )
Last edited on Sat Dec 19th, 2009 10:48 PM by TnTom
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20th, 2009 12:26 AM |
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miestro_jerry
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TnTom,
You have to look at things from this point of view, no matter what the factory does, it wouldn't fit every one equally.
My first home, 2,100 sq ft in Savannah cost me $7,300, that was way back when, I am not sure of what it would go fo today, but probably in the higher end of the 6 figure market. My first new car didn't cost that much, and it had a lot more HP than the ones made today, no matter what the rating system you use for HP.
My first rifle was $29 new. my first shootgun was $39. Yes I am giving my age away.
But how much did you pay for your last car, how much is your house worth? If you depend on a gun either for harvesting of food or self protection, what is that worth.
The bulk of my recently purchased handguns, these were well before Obama, were about a grand each, I have Kimbers, Sigs and a whole long list of pistols. Many of the rifles that I own are pricey, some are not so pricey. But I buy mine for life. My Belgium made Browning A5 12 gauge cost me about a quarter of what the current price on the better grade A5.
My M1As are not cheap, two are National Match, One is an Ultra Match and my favorite for sniping at ground hogs is what they call a loaded version. I have not kept up with EBR in todays world, but mine is a National Match HBAR, I bought before the Klinton ban.
The better part of my collection is for life, I take care of them and have them serviced every so often. Yes it did take years to get this amount of rifles and pistols, but I have always tried to buy quality. I do have plinkers and surplus shooters, some I keep, some I trade around.
My reloading equipment has been updated, but my Rockchucker is an old one. My first progressive was a Dillon 450. That Dillon were up graded to a 550, then I bought another Dillon 550, then a Dillon Square Deal B, and I was blessed with another Dillon 550 from an estate sale. I sold off one of my Dillon 550s, made one young reloading one heck of a deal. When I went with a Star Sizer, I sold my RCBS sizer off to yet another young person who was getting started.
I was not born into money, I married my high school sweet heart, went into the Army, did 8 years during an unpopular war, went to school while in the army, and used my G.I. Bill money after I got out of the army. I used my re-enlistment bonus to buy my first house and my first new car.
When I was working while I was in college, I dug ditches, climbed telephone poles and many other hard labor jobs. At one job site, we were working a nice deer popped up, I got my rifle and had dinner for my house hold for a few weeks.
My now Ex Wife, I put her thru her masters degree, she has a decent income and will be able to retired in a few more years, when she is 72. I helped two of my sons thru college and the third one went into the Marines. They all have a decent jobs, and times are tough for them, but they will make it thru this economic turmoil, because they learned some basic things in their younger years.
Back to guns, now is the time to get good deals from people who absolutely have to sell their better guns. I have a Kimber Raptor II that I bought new and it has gone back to Kimber to get the balanced changed a little and keep it under waranty. When people say they should a "whatever Brand" 1911 pistol and it shoots like a champ, but have they ever shoot a champ?
There was a guy in his early 40s that told me that his triple deuce was the best ground hog rifle ever made. He changed his tune when he fired my AR15 HBAR NM and got three G'Hogs one afternoon.
I have three working carry pistols, these need cleaning regularly, have form fitted holsters, in short my conceal carry pistols, Number 1 that gets carried the most is my S&W 340 PD, Number 2 is my SIG P220 and Number 3 is a Glock M37. Clothing, weather and location determine what I carry. I can bet my life on these pistols. The Glock was the cheap one.
My hunting rifles are all other spectrum, from 17HMR to 600 Double NE. My hunting pistols are from very light calibers to heavy duty 45s. I haven't had these all of my life, some are from years of collecting, some are move recent because of my retirement timing.
My other half supports what I do in the shooting world, as well as being a part of that world. Two years ago, she had never handled, let alone shot a gun. Now I am buying her 16 gauge stuff and a 308 rifle.
Between the two of us, we make one decent hunter these days, because I am slowing down and she is just getting started. Some where around we will equalize.
Every rifle, pistol or what ever firearms can be approved on, that is the way new generation of weapons are developed. If this was not the way things worked, we'd still be throwing stone at each other, but that may have some merit.
I don't give anyone the Bros before Hoes line, but when buying a gun, what are you going to do with it and how long do you plan on keeping it? If you are going to put your life on the line whether it be bad guys or a bear, isn't it worth the money to have a really high quality fire arms?
Jerry
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20th, 2009 05:01 AM |
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60th Post |
TnTom
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My point being that the initial investment in a quality firearm is typically less than the cost incurred trying to improve performance of weapons of lesser quality.
Attempts to improve performance of a quality firearm with aftermarket components only reduces its value and very seldom improves performance.
I'll never argue that the money spent on a quality firearm wouldn't be a wise investment. The fact is in the firearms game its the ONLY wise investment. Investing in anything less is just throwing good money after bad.
"You have to look at things from this point of view, no matter what the factory does, it wouldn't fit every one equally." I agree. I'm thinking more along the lines of custom or enhanced factory firearms not so much the T/C type of box guns
Last edited on Sun Dec 20th, 2009 05:24 AM by TnTom
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