| Posted: Sat Oct 24th, 2009 03:40 PM |
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Thecyberguy
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A while back I bought a hundred 55gr. .224 tracer bullets.
Any advise on a load to use to make them light up? I have heard that they won't light with certain loads and need to be min of 100 yds.
Rainy day here , so I thought I would try loading a few.
Thanks for the help and have a good one, Guy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 03:23 AM |
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Dragon88
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I do not have load data for you but being a bland Saturday night I did some google searching out of interest.
Here you can download a copy of TM-43-0001-27, Army small arms data sheets. It has a load listed but do not use it as factory ammo will have the charge calibrated based on burn rate of the powder lot.
http://www.ammoinfo.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=10
Has some general info on the M196 and M856 tracer rounds.
The powder it lists is WC844, which I'm told is the rough equivalent of H335. Another common powder is WC846, which is similar but not the exact same as BLC-2. That should get you going on your research.
I'm sure you already know this but I'll put it out there. Tracers start brush fires very easily, I've seen many Army ranges set ablaze from people putting tracers in their mags while qualifying. There may also be some local laws on shooting them. They become visible about 75 yards out and burn until 500 or so, it can vary.
Have fun.
Last edited on Sun Oct 25th, 2009 03:27 AM by Dragon88
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 12:34 PM |
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Thecyberguy
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Hey Dragon88,
Thanks , good info.
I loaded 20 yesterday, being a rainy (down pours) day nearly all day. I used 24.5 gr of H335. Graf and sons (where I bought them) suggested H335. They claim 55gr. on the bullets , but the 7-8 I weighed only weighed in at 52.5gr. They were very consistent at that weight.
The only restrictions I find here is that you can not hunt with them. As for fires I was concerned with that. Our range has a nearly vegetation free berm face. but we also have our benches under cover and thought another rainy day would be a good time to try them.
Being a kid inside, the only thing better than having a bang and seeing something blow up would be to see the round going to it. lol
Always wanted to try some , so when I stumbled across them at Graf and son for $15.49 per 100 delivered I thought I would give em a try.
I am sure it won't be , but a passing fancy...but fun for a few minutes...
Thanks again for the excellent info.
Have a good 'un, Guy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 01:04 PM |
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Dragon88
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I love trying random stuff like this too. So, did they go bang? They can burn quite spectacularly in a close berm.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 01:33 PM |
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Thecyberguy
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Haven't shot them yet...lol
I am also thinking maybe just about dusk would be a good time to use them...lol
Have a good 'un, Guy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 05:37 PM |
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fryboy
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most tracers were designed for daylite use ,when one googles ( and finds) surplus power there was a couple special ones made to help ignite the compounds, i'm not sure which ones those are but cannister grades should do it as well,the "cartridge of the worlds" book also has a lot of info in the back regarding tracers and assorted military ammo
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 05:55 PM |
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Thecyberguy
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Fryboy,
I went to the link that Dragon 88 gave me. It is the load data for the US mil rounds. It is a 325 page PDF. Took about half an hour on my back-woods dial up connection to get here. But, it actually gives the load data for all the US mil rounds. Not having any of the stuff it calls for made me wonder, but Dragon and Graf & son says H335 and that is what I loaded them with.
It may be a while before I use them...our deer season starts next Saturday and I want a wet day to try them for fear of fire.....wouldn't want to be on the evening news for stating a fire....lol
Thanks for the info.
Have a good 'un, guy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 05:58 PM |
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fryboy
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i too checked out dragons link ( cool link amigo ! ) thankfully i have a semi fast connection but even then i was there for more than a half hour just reading lolz ,i still recommend c.o.w. for anybody ! it's one of the best reference sources a body can get ( it even made Miami vice lolz)
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 08:03 PM |
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Dragon88
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There's a copy at the local bookstore where I get coffee in the evenings and I've read it pretty much front to back. I especially enjoy the proprietary cartridges section with all the cool custom wildcats and military rounds. Is 12th edition the latest? I might buy a copy before I leave here.
There's a powder burn rate chart here
http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/powder/powder.htm
which has the bulk canister powders on it as well as regular commercial ones. So for safeties sake I can't recommend taking a charge from the PDF, finding the closest equivalent powder, and using some common sense to clone those military rounds, but...yeeeeaaah......... 
The idea of needing a strong enough charge to ignite the tracers is an interesting one. Theoretically the tracer will start burning while still traveling down the barrel, but then it takes a while for it to burn through the closure cup and be visible. It would make sense that a charge on the upper end of the scale would ensure ignition better, but I really dunno. Some testing would be an interesting project. You will see them during the day but they are cooler to see at night, especially if you can shoot them a few hundred meters.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 08:29 PM |
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Thecyberguy
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The PDF shows WC844 (# 156 on the burn rate chart) @28.5 gr. with 52,000 psi and I loaded them with H335 (# 154 on burn rate chart) @ 24.5, which Lyman lists as about 35,200 psi. They call 27 gr. as max load for a 55 gr jacketed soft point. So, I feel fine with what I have going on...that link was cool though....Thanks.
Have a good 'un, Guy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 09:18 PM |
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fryboy
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if the twelfth edition is out yup it's the latest ,i too like the book (alot) often use it for a sleep aid lolz and i'm always finding myself going back and looking something up lolz ,like they say tho they have to draw the line somewhere or else it would be about 40,000 pages long ( prolly cost way more too )i like the wildcat and obsolete chapters best but the info is worthy in any chapter !
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 10:19 PM |
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Dragon88
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Your load sounds good. I'm at the bookstore with COW 12th edition in front of me. They list a target pressure of 52,000 psi for NATO 5.56. Yikes! Expected accuracy for tracers is only 2.5 MOA. I'm intrigued by the M197 high pressure test round. 70,000 psi! Who's brave enough to make and test one of these bad boys? 
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25th, 2009 10:33 PM |
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Thecyberguy
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I would have to think it is a test load used in a mechanical remote firing rig to test barrels.......but that would only be a guess.
What's the price on the 12th ed of COW?
Guy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26th, 2009 12:17 AM |
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Dragon88
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$22 on amazon.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27th, 2009 06:41 PM |
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rg1
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I've read a lot of loaders load the M193 55 grain tracer with their load using 55 fmj's. Unless your 55fmj load is a maximum load that should be ok. I drop back 1/2 grain from my 55fmj load. Your load at 24.5 grains of H335 should be fine as most 55 fmj loads with H335 are 25-25.5 maximum. Don't use data from the Army Ammunition Data Sheets even with the same powder they list. It is good information on military ammunition but their load data is maximum and the surplus military powder you buy will vary in burn rate. A load using the powder they use for .223 ammo with any of the several lots of WC844 I've used and at the charges they list would be very very dangerous. You have to work up all loads with military surplus powders because they may be slower or faster than standard and you need to do the work-ups every time you switch surplus powder lots. I've shot the M193 tracers with H335 powder and it lights them fine. Your 24.5 grains is a safe load and I'd consider it to be within one grain of a maximum load. I've read that shooting a bunch of tracers can leave residue in your barrel, while not corrosive, can attract moisture. No problems though, just clean your barrel normally. And they will easily set dry woods or grasses on fire.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27th, 2009 11:20 PM |
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Thecyberguy
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Thanks RG1.
That info is right in line with what others have said and what I have read.
I like getting "hands on" advice on things from people who have done it.
This place is great for that.
Thanks again and have a good 'un, Guy
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Support our troops.....they are someone's kids.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 02:41 PM |
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CowboyOIF06-07
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Ok I have tried many different loads (powders, primers and seat depths) with the tracers and am currently running @ 27 gr with H335 and am having no luck with getting them to light up. 1 of 5 sometimes. Benchmark seemed to work the best but only a few would light. I am firing them out of an M4A3 w/ 16" barrel. Any one have any new ideas??????
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 06:53 PM |
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rg1
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Some take a pin and punch a pin hole in the cup sealing in the tracer mix. This must let the flame ignite the old and not in good condition igniter mixture. Just a small pin hole completely through the sealing cup. If that doesn't work then the tracer components are just no good. Your 27 grain load of H335 must be getting up past maximum pressures--or not??
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 11:10 PM |
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72coupe
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I have shot a lot of 223 tracer. I carried 29 magazines all loaded with tracer when I was in Vietnam. My experience with the issued ammo mirrors Cowboy's. I can only see about 2 out of 5 as they go down range.
Couple years back I took some to a rifle match to show the guys that had never seen a 223 tracer round fired what they looked like. I fired 5 from a prone sling supported position. The 5 shots made a 1 inch group at 100 yards.
The group was at 2:00 O'clock with 2 Xs and 3 tens with my regular 55 grain bullet zero. Not bad for an iron sighted service rifle legal AR15.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 11:50 PM |
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CowboyOIF06-07
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27 gr is way passed max. Its only showing slight pressure signs. Its backing out the primer a bit and flattening out on the bolt. There is still a rad. on the primer so I haven't reached the "Max" before I need to get too concerned. With std. civilian brass, I would not push it that far but I am using once fired Lake City '05 brass. If I crimp the primer in, I might be able to push 28 gr. but that is taking my life into my own hands! I don't feel like eating my bolt... I will try the pinhole idea! Thanks
Last edited on Sat Nov 28th, 2009 11:52 PM by CowboyOIF06-07
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