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Cohiba
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Posted: 28 September 2008 12:57 PM |
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I have a problem with stuck cases. I am using RBCS dies and press. Federal Match brass and One Shot lube.
I lube inside the case neck w/ a 30 cal tynex brush sprayed w/ one shot.
I arrange the brass facing away in strips of 10-15, cover the neck and spray, turn 180 degrees and spray again. I then move them to a plastic bown and let alone for 5 min. I am still sticking brass like crazy. I cant figure it out. I stuck 4 cases yeaterday!!!
I wonder if my overpolishing is whats casueing it. after i clean in the tumbler I chuck the brass in a lee trimming chuck mounted in my B&D drill and polish with a piece of denim and brassO.
I worry that i might be increasing surface tension by smoothing the brass. kinda like a slick tire on concrete getting grip.
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Timberghozt
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Posted: 28 September 2008 01:52 PM |
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 DO NOT USE BRASSO ON CARTRIDGE CASES...
the ammonia in it weakens the brass and can cause catastrophic failure...
I dont think your overpolishing is the culprit.. hmmmmmm,
does it do this with other brands of brass?
RCBS makes excellent dies so I doubt it is a manufacturer problem with your dies..
How long have you had them?Have you stuck cases before in them???
I have been rolling my own handloads for 10 plus years and in that time I have only stuck a case once. jk ....
Dont fret too much friend,stuck cases happen,but not at the frequency you are describing..
any of you serious tech guys know what is causing this,its got my interest and I wanna know why.....
Cohiba if we find it is dies,RCBS will replace them..I have nothing but praise for RCBS,they are good folks..
TG
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Cohiba
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Posted: 28 September 2008 02:19 PM |
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| i remove the brasso. i dont let it sit on the case. i doubt that 2 seconds of spin on a piece of cotton is going to degrade the brass to the point of failure. so far i have stuck 338's and 30-06. maybe the humidity here in SC is going to require more dry time with the oneshot. im stumped.
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40twist
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| Joined: | 15 June 2008 |
| Location: | Leola, Pennsylvania USA |
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Posted: 28 September 2008 02:25 PM |
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Overpolishing definitely is not the culprit but I would throw away that one shot lube and go buy a tin of Imperial sizing wax. Once you have used it you will never use anything else. A tiny tiny film on the case is all that is needed then I roll a q-tip in the wax and just lightly spin the q-tip in the neck of every other round and ive never had a stuck case yet , seriously and the small tin of it lasts a LONG time. I also agree that you dont want to use brasso , for a nice polish just tumble it in corn cob , and you can get media additives that polish a bit more if you want but no ammonia. This is just my opinion as others have different methods that also work for them but if it works i would say that it isnt wrong 
Last edited on 28 September 2008 02:26 PM by 40twist
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Rockydog
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 26 July 2005 |
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Posted: 28 September 2008 02:43 PM |
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Cohiba, One shot is a great product I've used it for years. When I get cases sticking it's usually one of two things. Either I've done a crappy job of spraying the cases or I haven't cleaned my dies in a while. I built a reolading block using 3/16 dowels ( 6 penny nails also work) spaced an inch apart in long rows. I then staggered the next row to be spaced in between the first. I turn my cases upside down on the pegs and spray across the block at a slight down ward angle using a light spray. I then turn 90 degrees and spray lightly another 90 etc. until I've sprayed all four sides. I also clean my dies periodically with gun scrubber. Just prior to using I spray a light blast of one shot into the die. I've loaded for over twenty years and have stuck a total of three cases. Two .223 and one .270.
But the most important thing is that you pay real close attention to any drag you feel as you push on the press arm. It takes experience but I can always tell if one is getting sticky. I've stopped reefing on many before they've had a chance to stick. Every time I've stuck one I knew it before it happened and thought better of continuing the stroke but went ahead and tried to cram it up there. Seems like I've always been in a hurry when I stuck one. Reloading and speed never seem to mix. I learned not to reload with other things on my mind and until I've got time to relax and do it right. RD
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Sprue
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Posted: 28 September 2008 03:59 PM |
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I too use and prefer One shot. I think that you are not applying enough lube.
Spray inside and outside the neck as well as down the case body. Be a little more liberal but not to the point where the lube becomes runny. Let it stand for couple minutes then have at it.
I had a few stuck cases a while back, I was sizing some cheap greek 223 brass. I ended up annealing that brass on the acount that the brass was soooo hard. At the range one day I picked up some of the same type brass, brought it home and sized a few to see if it was going to be as dificult to size as the first batch, it was not. So I just chalked that one up as to that particular lot #.
Anywy, make sure that you're applying enough One Shot. For lube removal, I use laquer thinner and paper towels.
Oh, as I first mentioned that I prefer One Shot, although I do like the stuff I've went another direction as of late.....
I'm one who likes to improvise or one that likes to make my own things when at all possible. I now make my own bullet lubes, having purchased several items and having them on hand, I now make my own Case Lube. Why not, I had the ingredience available. Since I like spray lubes I found a spray bottle lying around and tried this formula:
5 parts Heet (red bottle)
1 part lanolin
This formula is way cheaper than One Shot at 9 bucks a can yet works AS good.
Good Luck !
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Cohiba
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Posted: 28 September 2008 07:43 PM |
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| tried some crisco this afternoon and will NOT be going back to Oneshot. maybe it the southern humidity...
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Gnarly
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Posted: 29 September 2008 06:01 AM |
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Have had good luck with OneShot.
Always clean my dies with acetone, let dry, then coat the inside of the dies with Microlon Gun Juice,let dry. Can substitute P.B.Blaster's DriLube,in a pinch.
When finished with the dies, I use Mobil One 15W-40 on a rag to wipe them down. Like the old ads for Brylcreem, 'a little dab'll do ya!'.
That's my little ritual.
----Gnarly 
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Cohiba
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Posted: 29 September 2008 12:05 PM |
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| I tumble then wipe down w/ starter fluid on a rag. deprime/resize, trim and spin polish while in the dill chuck. i am probably going to start tumbling after depriming to remove the crisco.
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Gnarly
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Posted: 29 September 2008 01:19 PM |
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OOPS!
Must have been half-asleep, during my typing last night.
Should have said: Mobil One 15W-50.
----Gnarly
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Cohiba
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Posted: 29 September 2008 07:21 PM |
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ran 150 FC's thru the RCBS FL die using crisco with zero problems. not even a shoulder dent.
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2571
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Posted: 30 September 2008 02:37 AM |
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Respectfully, I have been using Brasso for 23 years and have never seen any ill effects from ammonia.
Your advice is routine on all reloading sites I visit, but I have never read of any stories of ammonia induced brass deterioration nor of catastrophic results therefrom.
Are there such reported histories?
Similarly, every reloading site cautions against machine polishing of completed ammunition. I wouldn't do it but, I've never heard any war stories about that process in industry nor in home reloading.
Just my .02.
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Charley
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Posted: 30 September 2008 03:01 AM |
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There are documented ammonia issues, mostly with long term storage of milsurp ammo in a nitrogen rich (third world) environment. Long term exposure will lead to crystalization of the brass, and a high percentage of case failures, mostly head seperations.
I doubt short term exposure, such as hitting your brass with Brasso will damage it, assuming you don't store it with Brasso residue on it. Wax on, wax off, and I doubt there will ever be a problem.
I don't use Brasso or any ammonia containing polish on my brass, but I do tumble some loaded ammo.
Some of us live on the edge...
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'cause he's not authentic like me..." Al Sharpton
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Rockydog
addicted handloader
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Posted: 30 September 2008 03:21 AM |
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FWIW
Quoting from the Sierra Handgun Reloading Manual, 50th Anniversary Edition: Copyright 1995
"Regardless of the method used, handloaders should never tumble loaded ammunition. Doing so may cause deterioration of the powder's deterrant coating, or, in extreme cases, may damage the powder itself. Either situation would alter the the burning rate, possibly raising pressures to dangerous levels."
RD
____________________
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Timberghozt
Board Founder
| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
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Posted: 30 September 2008 11:26 AM |
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Anyone see any faults in the article below????
How to make your own cartridge cases and save money.
As anyone who does any amount of shooting already knows the most
expensive part of the loaded rifle cartridge is the case itself. Even
commonly available rounds like the 7x57 and 8x57, 7.65 Argentine and
7.7 Japanese are not exactly cheap. Often buying odd ball military
cases can often be very expensive too and they often are not even
available unless purchased by specialized outfits that hand make them
from other calibers such as the 8x50 and 8x52 Siamese Mauser, 8x56R
Hungarian etc. etc.
Because I learned early on how to make my own cases I was able often
to buy guns no one else wanted because there was either no ammo
available for them like the Siamese Mauser or ammo was difficult to
find as in the days not too long ago when .30 Mauser ammo and brass
almost did not exist here in the U.S. Back in those days we used cut
down .223 rifle cases. Not the best solution but it did work and we
were able to shoot non-corrosive ammo and keep our collector guns free
from corrosive ammo annihilation.
Over the years the "old foxes" have haunted shooting ranges, gun
shows, flee markets and kept their ear open for private deals on once
fired brass, especially 30-06. Often times once fired brass can often
be bought for only a song and a dance from people who do not hand
load. I have found brand new once fired brass at various shooting
ranges that were actually put back into the original factory box and
then thrown into the trash bin. I thank those people for keeping our
range nice and neat and I kiss their feet for giving me all that
expensive once fired brass.
Now lets take a look at the hand-loaders basic 30-06 case and how it
can be used to make a wide variety of calibers. Remember too that any
other case that is based on the 30-06 can be used as well such as the
25-06, 270 Win., .280 Remington, 35 Whelen, just to name a few.
Some of the simplest operations consist of just necking down or up the
30-06 to various calibers such as the 7x57 or 8x57 Mauser cartridges.
Remember though when necking DOWN you will most probably have to
either inside or outside neck ream to keep the neck from being too
thick and possible causing dangerous pressures and also avoiding any
jammed cartridges in the chamber. I might add that inside reaming is
faster and easier than outside reaming and in standard chambers found
on sporting and military guns, (believe me) you will see no difference
in accuracy.
I might add that when necking up you may need a tapered punch to open
up the case neck so you will not collapse it when necking up. Lee has
recently come out with a case belling die set that works well for this
application and is very cheap in price.
When forming cartridges from 30-06 its best to use a paste wax lube
such as the all time classic wax lube called "Imperial sizing die
wax". The company has changed hands several times and the last can I
bought I believe came from Sinclair Specialties. Just one little can
will last you for many years unless you are making enough cases to
supply the Russian army with military ammo. Go easy on the wax and
keep it away from the neck area as wrinkled necks will result even
with wax and are an absolute certainty if you use wet lubes. Wet
lubes can be used by they are much trickier to use.
After necking down a case you will have a very long neck that will
need to be trimmed back. You can use a size trim die to do this and
then later square up all the cases in your trimmer. Before I had trim
dies I often used a Forester attachment on my Forester trimmer that
allowed me to put on an electric drill motor to trim back the overly
long necks but this had to be done with caution and at very low rpm.
The trimmer shaft had to be lubed with a good lube and the cutter was
subject to a lot of wear and heat. This is why the file trim die is
much better to used. Yes, I even tried tubing cutters but they are
really slow.
Remember to inside and outside chamfer the case mouth.
You will positively have to anneal your case necks or you will not get
more than 1 or 2 firings before they split. Simply find yourself a
flat pan and fill the pan so the cartridge cases are immersed about
1/3 to 1/2 way up the case. The more water the longer it will take to
heat the necks. The water keeps the case head from becoming soft.
I always do this a night when it is pitch black as then I can see the
color of the necks much easier. You will see the necks get orange and
then red. You can rig up a fancy turn table to play the torch around
the case necks or simply do it by hand. Do not use map gas as this is
to hot a gas to use but just an ordinary propane soldering torch.
When you have heated them you do not have to knock them down in the
water as brass is not like steel and the annealing will take place
whether you do this or not. If you do knock them down on purpose or
by accident you will have to dry the inside of the cases out. You can
do this in an old hot dog oven but that will discolor the brass and
necessitate tumbling the cases again. A better way is just to go to a
store that specializes in selling industrial cleaners and buy a 50 lb.
bag of corn cob tumbling media and get the finest grit available.
Throw the cases in your vibrator or tumbler and the media will soak up
the moisture.
I might add that Brasso cleaner that can be found at most discount
stores like Wal-Mart and mixed with the media does a first class job
in cleaning cases. And no it will not weaken your brass contrary to
old the old wives tales about anything that contains ammonia. It does
not have that much in it and I have been using this stuff for years
with no problems at all.
When getting into really odd ball cases like the Siamese Mauser you
can buy form dies but unless you are going to be making a lot of cases
they can be very expensive and it is often cheaper just to buy your
case from custom outfits like Buffalo Bullets but you will still
probably have to ream the case necks. Another alternative is to go in
with several other shooters that also have the same caliber weapon and
thereby split the cost of the dies.
Beware though that this is a rimmed cartridge and even though I had
two Forester Collets neither one was big enough for the rimmed Siamese
case. The cases were made from 45/70 and a Collet for this caliber is
available from Forester but I just used a pair of vise grips to hold
the case back against one of the collets I already had and it worked
fine while trimming the cases down.
When you have to turn down rims you do not need a lathe although it
sure makes things easier and faster. You can just take a 1/2 inch drill
motor. Put it in a padded vise. Put in your cartridge case and then
run both a coarse and then a fine file over the spinning rim until you
turn it down to the right diameter. Yes its slow but I did 200 cases
in Siamese Mauser by just doing a few each night in my spare time till
I got them all done. Remember you will have to put a small bevel on
the rim as well.
A good book like "Cartridge conversions by John Donnelly" is helpful
but even many loading manuals also contain cartridge case dimensions
but Donnelly actually tells you how to do it.
I might caution you that most re-loading presses have wear and or slop
in them in regards to the toggle linkage. When you try and size any
brass or neck brass down the case will not be shoved all the way up
into the die resulting in either a loaded round that chambers hard
because the shoulder of the case was not set back far enough and/or
hard extraction. To get around this "press slop" you must make sure
when sizing you shove the case all the way up into the die. This is
down by simply screwing the die down a little more. Now remember just
screwing down the die till it meets the shell holder will not do it
because of the press slop. You first screw down the die till it meets
the shell holder and then withdraw the ram a bit and screw down the
die another 1/16 to 1/8 turn and then gently push up the ram until it
pushes against the die. You will know when to quit turning the die
down further as you will reach a point where the ram will not go all
the way up. Put a case into the die and then check with a flashlight
to see if it is all the way up in the die. The shell holder should
have met the bottom of the die anyway. After sizing you should then
check the case with a good shoulder gauge to make sure you have not
set the shoulder back too much.
If you do not have a shoulder gauge you can start out by sizing less
and constantly checking how hard it is to turn down the bolt on the
sized case. When the bolt suddenly just flops down with no resistance
you probably went to far in the sizing operation.
The most complaints people make (even one gun writer did in print
which really told me how little he knew about doing this) is that re-
formed cases did not work as well as factory made ones. I really got
a good laugh out of this gun writer's article. If formed properly by
following the above instructions they work every bit as well as
factory cases.
I would also caution that the formed cases may not have the same
internal volume due to the fact that you set the shoulder back and the
case is actually thicker than a corresponding factory case so if you
are young and reckless Buck and only believe that loading to the max
is any fun you must work up your hand loads carefully.
One word of warning, you will have cases that are now marked for their
original caliber not the caliber you formed them too. Some people
like to use some sort of maker to identify them but lets face facts if
you cannot tell the difference between a long 30-o6 and a formed and
much smaller 7x57 you should not be even shooting factory ammo let
alone hand loads. Now of course if you have made the 30-06 into a
7.7. Japanese or 7.65 Argentine they are very close in size to the
30-06 so marking them would be prudent.
I again make a disclaimer on forming 7.7 Japanese cases from 30-06.
The Japanese case is larger in the head diameter and there will be an
unsupported part of the cartridge head in the chamber. Yes I know
people have been doing this for years and the Japanese Arisaka was the
strongest and safest bolt action military rifle ever made but when I
have done this I reserved the formed cases for low powered cast bullet
loads only not full powered loads.
I might add I do not recommend you form 6.5 x 55 Swedish cases from
30-06 as they are also of a bigger head diameter and the Swedish
Mauser does not have the excellent gas venting the Japanese Arisaka
does.
Always refer to the dimensions of the two cartridges you are working
with before forming any from 30-06 brass.
Remember too that forming is just not reserved to making military
calibers as if you have a large amount of 30-06 brass or that family
size of cases laying around many commercial calibers can be formed as
well. People have made cases for such common calibers as the 22-250, .
270, 280, 35 Whelen etc. all out of 30-06 brass. People have made .
243, Win..260 Rem. 7mm/08, from .308 cases as well. Again a good
conversion book will give you the dimensions of the cartridges you
want to make as compared to the cartridge cases you have on hand.
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Charley
Administrator
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Posted: 1 October 2008 03:21 AM |
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| Can't see anything majorly wrong. I might disagree on some details. I form a fair amount of oddball stuff, you know.
____________________
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"The LA Times they called him that,
'cause he's not authentic like me..." Al Sharpton
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ar10
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Posted: 2 November 2008 08:51 AM |
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I used OneShot to try it out. About every third case got stuck in the sizing die. I couldn't figure it out and got frustrated. Then I read the directions. I didn't let the cases dry. I was shoving them in still wet or partially dry. Crisco is still cheaper but a little more messy. After I size the cases I just dump them in the utrasonic with a little Dawn and vineger and everything gets cleaned nicely.
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Parsec
HB Pro Staff
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Posted: 5 November 2008 02:49 AM |
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I had to teach myself how to handload up here in the bush because no one I met knew how. I cleaned all my .45acp cases in the sink with common household cleaners because I didn't know any better.
Many of my cases split full length up the sides each time I went out to shoot. It took a couple of months before someone told me about ammonia based chemicals and I stopped doing it immediately thereafter and never had another split case.
I don't clean my cases with anything any more...I merely tumble them with a good polish (Dillon).
For what its worth, I think it was the ammonia.
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DesertMarine
HB Full Member
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Posted: 19 November 2008 01:49 AM |
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| I clean my brass in a Midway tumbler before resizing and clean the inside of the neck with a brass bore brush. I use RCBS resizing lube and lube the inside of the neck with the same lube on a q-tip. I started with RCBS dies and had the same problems, which I believe were caused by under lubing. I switched to Redding dies and learned how to lube cases. No problems anymore. I clean the lube in the tumbler and then tumble in a RCBS tumbler for shine. I like my cases shiny.
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ar10
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Posted: 19 November 2008 03:37 AM |
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Rockydog wrote: FWIW
Quoting from the Sierra Handgun Reloading Manual, 50th Anniversary Edition: Copyright 1995
"Regardless of the method used, handloaders should never tumble loaded ammunition. Doing so may cause deterioration of the powder's deterrant coating, or, in extreme cases, may damage the powder itself. Either situation would alter the the burning rate, possibly raising pressures to dangerous levels."
RD
I read the same thing, probably out of the same manual. It has been mentioned before that excessive tumbling after reloading causes the grains to fracture making smaller grains thus causing higher pressure. Sierra also states that tumbling "pointy" reloads increases the possibility of the pointy end of one bullet hitting the primer of another bullet. I don't know if it's true or not, I haven't read any instances of it, but I also don't tumble live rounds. They're just going to get dirty again anyway.
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