| Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2009 08:46 PM |
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lynxpilot
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1. Having a go at .223 with once-fired. Since it was my first time, I used the light weight bullets (62 g) using Benchmark powder. First problem was casings with marking on bottom that was "LR 02" not taking primers. De-primed cases looked clean, but a lot of casings or primers would shear a sliver off, or primer would not fully seat, or lastly would seat crooked. I quit using those casings and went only to those that said .223 on them. Is there something wrong with Federal casings?
2. Put about 10 rounds that I had just reloaded into a magazine. I was under max OAL, using numbers for that bullet, very light crimp. I chambered and ejected all of them and they all came out with the bullet pushed into the casing and loose. Pounded all of them out with the bullet extractor, reloaded, set OAL to exact spec for .223, and crimped heavy. Chambered and ejected them again and they all stayed intact. I don't understand everyone saying they don't crimp their rifle rounds and then I have this problem with every single one. Is it only because I was using a semi-auto (AR-15)?
Thanks in advance.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2009 09:08 PM |
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swampshooter
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I suspect that their is a primer crimp on the cases you were having trouble with that was not sufficiently removed. Whether or not you can get away without a firm crimp on your bullet frequently depends on the diameter of your sizing ball and the diameter of your bullets. I suspect that some people who don't crimp are having bullets shoved down on their powder and aren't aware of it. Sometimes a full case of powder can support the base of the bullet enough that it doesn't push the bullet into the case very far. By all means if you need to crimp ,do so. PS. I have to crimp bullets for my AR.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2009 09:45 PM |
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lynxpilot
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Thanks for the info. I checked for primer crimp. Wasn't sure if they were military surplus or not, but apparently not because I didn't find it.
I just loaded 10 new casings with 77 gr Sierra's and Reloader 15. With the setup I had after adjusting crimp and OAL to exact length, they all seemed to work fine.
Now if I can just get shooter skill up toward gun capability, I'll start having some fun.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 12:52 AM |
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Rockydog
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Lp, What brand of primers were you using? I've had real problems with Federal small rifle primers and seating. RD
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| Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 04:02 AM |
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lynxpilot
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Correction to above. Casings said "LC 02". I think that's Lake City (something from Federal). It also had the NATO thingy on it, so I think it's 5.56mm, which should make no difference. But that's the casings. The primers were a mix of CCI and Wolf. Both had issues with the Federal casings. I ended up running the case mouth reamer in them and most of them seated alright then. I'm still curious though, because there was no staking that I could see. Is there some way they seat primers with a stake that covers the entire perimeter?
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| Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 04:08 AM |
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Rockydog
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Lp, Yup they stake the LC with a ring all the way around. You have to either buy a swager to take them out or ream them out somehow. Sometimes I use a countersink bit for wood screw heads and sometimes just a drill bit that's a few 64ths larger than the pocket and just carve the very edge off of the pocket. If I set my drill press depth gauge just right and place the case on an oak block I can roll through a 100 pretty quick. Works for me unless I use Federal primers then I still have problems sometimes. RD
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| Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 04:38 AM |
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lynxpilot
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Rocky, you've solved the mystery. My solution, as stated above, was running the case mouth reamer in the primer pocket and that was enough to get by with most of the rounds. Interesting to find out about staking all the way around. I'm learning more every day. Then again, that's what we're supposed to do isn't it.
I loaded .223 until I ran out of Reloader 15. I'll probably do .308 tomorrow until I run out of primers. Having a blast so far. It's great to be able to come here and find out the little details from those who are so experienced.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 04:56 AM |
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DesertMarine
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When you are seating your bullets, do they go in easy or tight? I do not crimp for my AR. I use Redding dies that use the neck bushing and set my neck that way. Bullet seating is tight. Swampshooter and you make a great point about chambering and ejecting the rounds. I'll try it next time.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 11:55 AM |
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fryboy
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most methods of removing primer crimp involve removing metal except the swage type remover ( rcbs makes one ) as r.d said many things will work to remove the lil lip ( even a pocket knife -tho i'd hesitate to suggest it unlss there was but 1-2 cases and no other way )in the old days often the primer crimp was a series of staked spots ( ditto on some old old ball ammo and various manufactures on primer or bullet)the case neck deburrer does a decent albiet slow job but ....as u noted some still gave problems if all the crimp isnt removed ( this is where the swager excels btw with no loss of metal )it's hard to gauge the removal of the crimp by eye ,it's also possible to take too much off/out of the primer pocket ,larger cases ( ie; large primer pockets )are easier to see both the crimp and the ring it leaves,speaking of swagers ... there are also a couple of companies who make a case head swager to deal with loose primer pockets ,i havent used one yet but i'd almost bet that those would also remove any military crimp as well,if i run into a tight primer pocket all cases in that lot are suspect ( ditto on loose primer pockets )as you noted one cant always see or tell if a case has a primer crimp , many are blantantly obvious ,the newer stuff i have seen it isnt ( i have some wcc aka winchester that has a definate ring one cant miss ditto on some pmc )the newer lake city i have seen it isnt so obvious if even discernable.
as for crimping .....alot will depend on the expander part of the die and the sizer ,the sizer may be a lil large ( it's possible but rare )it's also possible that the expander may be a lil large ,the expander can be judiciously sized on a fixed expander by chucking it in a drill and using fine emery cloth to reduce it ,if the bullet starts in the case with thumb pressure i'd worry ! either the case isnt sized small enough or the expander is a bit big ,neck tension alone usually suffices ( if properly set up )crimp is a matter of debate ....as well as is the amount of crimp ,i usually try to run as little as possible,on pistols i start with just enough to "iron out " the belling ( which i barely bell enough to get the bullet started -pistols brass usually wears out because of too much crimp and too much belling )rifles i only bell for cast boolits and crimp only for hard recoiling magnums and guns that are prone to push the bullet deeper because of the feed ramp or have a tubular magazine,i also crimp harder when using slow magnum pistol powders( 357,44 mag etc )i caution on checking reloaded ammo for fit , i usually make a couple of dummy rounds and try them first ( less chance of going "oh shoot" ) on .223 i have a set of lee and a set of hornady dies ,the lee came with a factory crimp die and it works great ! but ... lolz i rarely crimp my .223's,my bolt guns do not need it and my auto's havent seemed to need it yet( i had a ak clone in .223....it seemed to hit the bullet when chambering and when it wasnt crimped would push the bullet a lil deeper ) it is also possible for a round to be toolong and that would result in pushing the bullet deeper ( as it engages the rifling -should show up as light engraving on the bullet)
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lynxpilot
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I'm using a Dillon RL550B, so the bullet seating pressure is masked by the other 3 events going on in the press. As far as how tight when I set the bullet on the round, I was using boat tails and they were still teetering (i.e. the neck was tight as a drum). I've chambered and ejected factory loads before and never noticed any movement of the bullet in the casing. I obviously did some numbskull newbie thing and haven't figured it out yet (or at least figure out what I did during round 1). The subsequent bullets yesterday went really well. I switched to new casings, 77 gr bullets, and ran the press until the powder hopper was just about empty. I checked powder load frequently and it was VERY consistent. That was something I'd had issues with on other rounds. Got about 250 rounds done all-in-all yesterday. Good therapy!
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trickywoo
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I at least lightly crimp all ammo for an auto-loader, had some set the bullet back in the case. I got lucky and caught it before firing them!
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OldStuffer
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lynxpilot wrote: Correction to above. Casings said "LC 02". I think that's Lake City (something from Federal). It also had the NATO thingy on it, so I think it's 5.56mm, which should make no difference. But that's the casings. The primers were a mix of CCI and Wolf. Both had issues with the Federal casings. I ended up running the case mouth reamer in them and most of them seated alright then. I'm still curious though, because there was no staking that I could see. Is there some way they seat primers with a stake that covers the entire perimeter?
Those are "Lake City dte 2001 GI brass. I shoot using a lot of it's big brother, 7.62 brass. The primer crimp is a full circulararound the primer. Deprime one and a civilian case, and caliper the hole, I'm quite certain you will find it's smaller, due to the crimp.
Working in aviation, I long ago brought home a hand countersink cutter (somewhat like the kinked screwdrivers that are "twirlable" you see for using on switch/outlet covers in electrical suply shops, but this takes std. threaded 100* countersinks). I'd rather have a Dillon Super-Swager, but, it's $100 and my tool cost me under $40 from Snap-On. It doesn't take a lot to remove the crimp, but, if you don't, it'll give you fits.
GI 9mm is the same way.
Guys with bolt actions can get away with less cbullet rimp on the cases than guys with semi-auto's do, but, I suspect that some DO get bullet movement that they may well be unaware of. I use a Lee Factory Crimp die on my .308 loads and don't try to crimp the peewaddin' out of them, and my BAR feeds them just fine. Moderate crimp. Also, I use the Lee die becasue my most-fired load, my 130gr deer hunting load, has no canelure for crimping, but I need a bullet hold or it DOES push back on feeding.
Good luck to ya.
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kscchtrainer
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lynxpilot,
Cheapest way I've found to remove the military primer crimp with reasonable accuracy is to buy yourself an el-cheapo Lee cartridge neck de-burring/chamfer tool. It's neck chamfering cutter has the angle set just about perfectly (on purpose) to ream the crimp out of the primer pockets and the pointy end's diameter is such that it bottoms out on both large and small primer pockets before it takes too much off.
I agree that the $100 dillon "Super Swager" is the best way to go, but unless you are constantly doing a ton of military brass, it just isn't worth it.
LC brass and anything with the NATO "cross within a circle" mark on the headstamp will definitely have the primers crimped in. I even found some VietNam era .38 special brass that had crimped primers! That was fun!
Lyman makes a primer pocket reamer that will remove the crimp as well, but you need two separate cutters with it and it costs a bit more than the Lee.
Jim
Last edited on Wed Jan 6th, 2010 12:52 PM by kscchtrainer
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15th, 2010 02:40 AM |
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SwampCracker67
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This is what I use for the mil-crimp and it takes just a couple small "bumps" of the trigger and you will see a ring of brass come off STOP there! lol after that my CCI#400 primers go right in! it's just a plain old countersink, some people call 'em "rosebuds"...guess cause of the way it looks - whatever. cost me $4.00 at Home Deepthroat
Also, and you probably know this but if it is a NATO/Military round the web is a little thicker thus, the case has less volume than a commercial case and it is recommended that you start out with a minimum load that is 10% less than the starting load for a commercial cartridge. So, if your reloading book says your starting load is 25gr. then deduct %10 from that and use as your starting load. Verify this w/ others, I am still a noob just starting out but this is what I have been told as well as read. works for me - YMMV
Last edited on Mon Feb 15th, 2010 02:43 AM by SwampCracker67
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15th, 2010 03:11 AM |
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Rockydog
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SwampCracker67 wrote:
Also, and you probably know this but if it is a NATO/Military round the web is a little thicker thus, the case has less volume than a commercial case and it is recommended that you start out with a minimum load that is 10% less than the starting load for a commercial cartridge. So, if your reloading book says your starting load is 25gr. then deduct %10 from that and use as your starting load. Verify this w/ others, I am still a noob just starting out but this is what I have been told as well as read. works for me - YMMV
Swampcracker, Your statement about military cartridges having less case volume is, for the most part, right on the money. However, reducing powder charges with some slow burning powders to 10% below the starting charge may asking for disaster. Some powders like 4895 can be safely reduced, others, like 4350, cannot. These slower powder react very poorly to low density loading and burn very erratically. In fact, they can start the bullet moving down the bore and then achieve full ignition, making bullets act like barrel obstructions. Please be very careful in reducing loads below published starting loads. I'm sure that other experienced loaders will weigh in here also.
Below is a quote from the article linked here:
http://www.gunhuntermag.com/Articles/tabid/113/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/101/Feel-Less-Kick.aspx
Assembling reduced loads would be a cinch if all that was required was a corresponding reduction in powder. Unfortunately, it's not.
Reducing the charge weight of relatively slow-burning-rate powders, like H4350, H4831 and Reloder 22, more than 10 percent below maximum (emphasis Mine RD) can lead to a dangerous rise in pressure. Ron Reiber, a ballistician for Hodgdon Powder, said this rise in pressure occurs in cartridges with a large powder capacity compared to their bore diameter.
"What happens is the reduced amount of powder leaves a lot of air space in the big case, and the powder doesn't ignite properly," Reiber notes. "Some of the powder will ignite first and break down, and then the flame will jump across the air space and finally ignite the rest of powder."
The pressure from the powder that has burned first moves the bullet into the throat. When the rest of the powder burns, the bullet stuck in the throat has no running start to even out the rising pressure. That causes a sharp increase in pressure.
Reiber said he has never had much luck with reduced loads in small-bore magnum cartridges.
"Say you're shooting a 140-grain bullet at 3,200 feet per second from a 7mm magnum. You can switch to H4895 powder to reduce velocity to 2,600 fps, and that will work okay because the powder still takes up about 60 percent of the powder space," he said. "But to reduce the velocity of magnum cartridges slower than that, down to say 2,000 fps, it's difficult to get uniform velocities."
Generally speaking, with standard-size cartridges like the .30-06 on down to the .223 Rem, the slower the velocity desired, the faster-burning powder the handloader should select. For example, the .25-06 Remington shoots full-power big-game loads accurately with 120-grain bullets and slow-burning H4831 or H1000 powders. For practice and small-game shooting out to 250 yards, the 85-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip and H4985 shoots accurately at a reduced velocity of 2,900 fps. Even faster-burning H4198 shoots the Speer 87-grain bullet well at 2,600 fps. And way down at 2,100 fps, faster-burning-yet H4227 accurately shoots the Speer 87-grain bullet. That's because each of these powders delivers its best ballistic performance within a certain pressure range. The faster a powder's burning rate, the lower the pressure range at which it works best.
Please be careful when reducing loads. Rockydog
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15th, 2010 01:10 PM |
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SwampCracker67
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Rockydog, Thanks man, that's good to know. As I said before I am a noob at this and have been going with what I was told....so many diff. opinions on all this. Actually, my load I have been making for .223 in a Lake City case calls for a starting charge of 25gr. using Varget with a 55gr. fmj. Of course, if you deduct 10% from that then it ends up being a 22.5gr. charge but I rounded up and have been using a 23.2gr. charge w/ no probs so far....so far! Last edited on Mon Feb 15th, 2010 01:11 PM by SwampCracker67
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15th, 2010 04:15 PM |
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swampshooter
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Varget has not been accused of causing pressure excursions. You'll be OK.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15th, 2010 10:06 PM |
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SavageShooter
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Thread was way too long to read everything in detail. So here is my 2 cents. LC = Lake City, the plant is in Independence, MO. Which just happens to be about 15 miles from my home. They manufacture small arms ammo for the Military and stamp all their cases with the LC (Year) and a Circle with a cross in it. So if you have LC 02, that was manufactured in 2002 at the Lake City Plant.
Primers are always crimped, and LC brass is always THICK. Which means, you need to back off your max loads or you'll get extremely high pressure in the chamber and you need to remove the crimp from the primer pocket. Go with the Lyman tool for this, it's reasonable and easy to use. You'll get more reloads out of the brass, but you'll do more trimming as well. Keep in mind that with Thicker brass you need to back off the loads by about 5% of maximum.
Also with the thick cases it would explain why you might have issues with seating bullets and need the neck reamer.
Also, if you shoot in an AR type of rifle, you should crimp your loads. If it's bolt action, then you don't have too. Just my 2 cents.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17th, 2010 06:23 AM |
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Don Fischer
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I doubt that you can find a load for the 223 or 5.56 that will use a powder like 4350 or 4831. The problem with reducing those powders comes in a large case when the volume of powder does not hold the powder over the flash hole and the spark jumps the load and burns the powder from the front backward. Very high pressure can then be developed. But if you take the same load and hold the powder to the flash hole with a wad of tissue or kpok or if you point the rifle up befor firing and settle the powder to the flash hole, the problem goes away.
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