| Posted: Sat Oct 17th, 2009 11:32 PM |
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lurcher
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There seems to be a crowd of people who are not using dies with expander balls arguing that they work the neck and they can throw concentricity out. Instead they are neck sizing with either bushing dies (+neck turning) or lee collet dies and shoulder bumping using redding body dies. The cost of this approach if you use the body die and the collet die is not bad, so I have started gearing up this way.
I have watched a good reloading video several times recently Richard Franklins precision reloading for long range shooting. He sizes cases with a bushing neck die and then bumps the shoulder back when required with a redding body die.
when bumping the shoulder rather than take measurements what he does is he puts the die in the press ad starts adjusting it till it is just starting to work on the case then he takes the firing pin assembly out of his bolt chambers the piece of brass, removes it turns the die in a little sizes some more and rechecks in the rifle. He does this until the bolt requires just the tiniest amount of pressure (about a pound he estimates) to close. Then he locks the die in the press and sizes all his brass.
My question is if you are going to do this should you also remove the plunger from a remington bolt face? he did not mention this but, I had wondered if you had two rifles one a push feed with plunger and one a controlled feed with identical head spaces would you get the same case length for that pound of pressure on both setups approximately (all else being equal) unless you removed the plunger? Would you remove the plunger from your bolt if you were using this approach to bump shoulders?
In the same video Richard argues (with serious veracity) that it is a bad move to chamfer the inside of the case neck (outside chamfering is OK). Instead he chucks the brass in a battery drill and polishes the end of the case mouth with steel wool. His argument is that it is nigh-on impossible to do an even chamfer job both within a single case and between cases and that this has the potential to effect runout. I guess if you were using sloppy seater dies there might be something in this but if you are using a wilson, or a forster ultra or similar would chamfering make any difference?
Would be interested to hear peoples thoughts on this
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 12:08 AM |
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fryboy
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consider many things when following these lines of thought ... benchrest and hunting have a few things in common but also many that arent,no natter how it's applied proper neck sizing can increase case life ,how many of us want to make sure that every round we fire is indexed the same way every time we shoot and size it ? umm i dont ,i have to agree that the neck expander is the second largest cause of working the brass the third is full length sizing it ,while there are other variances involved those three alone count for most of it ( for those who didnt catch #1 it's firing it ,at least for the first time)
as for chamfering ...hmmmmm if one pushed and harder it can bell the neck slightly,mine get a light chamfer both sides and for cast boolits in rifles i use a "m" die ,if i dont it's possible to shave lead off a bullet thereby defeating any prior prep work i did on my brass,berger didnt make the vld reamer for nothing and except for new brass or when u trim it u really dont have to chamfer or deburr it ,on taper crimp auto rounds it doesnt take much ( but they also get expanded/belled )if ur using flat base bullets no chamfer does make i harder to start the bullet in the neck -period , keep in mind something has to size the neck ,even the expander die leaves it so that a bullet is a great snug fit ,most guys unless shooting the same target at the same distance everytime wont turn their case necks or have a custom chamber etc etc and they'll also load a few flatbase bullets ,even with a chamfer boattails start better but it's easy to over chamfer as well,it doesnt take much to knock off the burr or wire edge, btw ? it's also impossible to polish it the same every time lolz
body bump in the benchrest circles is usually done only when accuracy falls off, it's quite different than hunting ,i do neck size a few rounds i also full length some as well,my full legnth is set to where there is just a lil pressure to close the bolt ,let me ask u a question ..the firing pin ? how is it going to affect chambering a round until it's fired ?the plunger on the other hand does push against the case but i dont shoot benchrest nor did i take out my plunger when setting my dies( or my firing pin)every gun is indeed like a woman , everyone is different and we all have different ways to "woo" it and different needs to arrive at the same place - 1 fired round,the benchrest guys try to eliminate every variable they can the hunters on the other hand need more power and while one hole groups would be nice most settle for minute of deer at say 300 yards or minute of p-dogs at 600
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 01:38 AM |
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Busted
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I haven't seen Mr. Franklin's video. I know many of us have some firmly held beliefs based on what has been successful to us. I differ on at least some of what you recount.
First, stripping a bolt and adjusting a sizer by feel is a PITA to me. But, it's quite simple to use a Hornady or Sinclair Case Length - Headspace device on a dial caliper OR an Innovativative Products or RCBS Precision Case Mic . Measure the fired cases and set the shoulders back as you want them, within reason anyway. Springback on individual cases varies enough that a couple thousanths variation in sizing is virtually certain. But, if shoulders are pushed back an average of a couple thou the bolt WILL close gently and with no excess slop.
The basic idea of common expanders bending necks is true but the "solution" is much more complex than simple not using the expander ball. Bushing neck dies are, IMHO, mostly useful for tight necked chambers and with neck turned cases. The Lee Collet, used in concert with a body bump die, is much better/easier when working with factory chambers and common cases.
Perhaps the worst offender in run-out in otherwise good necks is excessive "bullet tension" (a too small neck inside diameter). Seating into a too small hole assures the bullet WILL be forced out of line as much as die slop will allow it. Many popular die brands have quite a bit of slop in their seaters. The best seater designs have full length body sleeves to improve bullet alignment into the case - that means the Forster BR and Redding Competition dies and no others. At all.
And no dies can correct for bad necks due to non-concentric necks. Correcting that means neck turning, done intelligently and using a good neck turner. (K&M, Hart, Forster, Sinclair. And, of course, the expensive Pumpkin. The Forster HOT-100 is the best deal, IMHO, especially for a factory rifle chamber.)Last edited on Sun Oct 18th, 2009 01:44 AM by Busted
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 01:57 AM |
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lurcher
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fryboy wrote: ?the plunger on the other hand does push against the case but i dont shoot benchrest nor did i take out my plunger when setting my dies( or my firing pin)every gun is indeed like a woman , everyone is different and we all have different ways to "woo" it and different needs to arrive at the same place - 1 fired round,the benchrest guys try to eliminate every variable they can the hunters on the other hand need more power and while one hole groups would be nice most settle for minute of deer at say 300 yards or minute of p-dogs at 600
The idea of removing the firing pin is that when you close the bolt on the brass is that there no cocking and hence spring pressure, nothing to do with the firing pin.
Using the method outlined in the video If the shoulder is pushed back too far then when you close the bolt the handle will easily drop with gravity, as there will be significant clearance behind the case. In the video he sets up the die so the bolt can be pushed down on sized brass with the very lightest pressure. His idea is to keep the brass sized as close to chamber size as possible.
The guy who did the video, while he builds bench rifles and others (varmint, deer longrange and blackpowder etc), is all about shooting p-dogs at 600 metres, that is his thing. The video was pitched at people who want accuracy for hunting long-range, it was not a bench-rest video. Here is his website http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/
I am new to all of this but I can see that surely some of the techniques from bench rest, like running a concentricity gauge over your rounds/brass and putting a little extra into brass prep aren't going to add too much work but will help with accuracy/consistency and confidence in your ammo which has to pay dividends when you start to stretch the ranges?
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 03:00 AM |
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fryboy
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if ur bolt is semi modern ....it cocks on opening ,if it's old and ur serious about it has been retro fitted with either a new bolt or a cock on opening kit , while this may preload some pressure in the bolt it wont be between the the bolt handle and the bolt face ,which is where ur headpace is going to be unless u have rear locking lugs that detach from a bolt end in which case u wouldnt be getting true head space without it,from the breech face to ur shoulder in the chamber would be zero ,anything less will stretch a bit when fired , anything more will require more effort to close the bolt ur plunger will put more pressure on it than the firing pin when it's already cocked,i seen his page , thanx for sharing the link ,i did note the first thing in his product line for sale was video's,and while i do have one or a few barrels i do a lil more ..shall we call it "lovemaking" to the brass etc ,for the casual hunter, the plinker,and the self defense guy it would be personal choice ,i do have a few barrels that the brass gets indexed in the barrel the dies etc ,some does cross over between disciplines ,hunter's ( especially the umm more dangerous games) will size their cases smaller insure flawless chambering in adverse conditions,these guys will also usually crimp their rounds unlike a bench rester, a concentric gauge will tell u how round u are or if set up to do it how thin ur shoulder is getting etc ,ones out of spec get culled thereby eliminating yet another variable,a benchrester will use that for a fouling or practice shot but a varminter will pop it at a varmint ,like u said ur new to this,u'll soon learn what works best for u ,keep in mind that every rifle,pistol,barrel etc is different, btw ? welcome to the forum ! drop by the new guy thread and say hello to the gang,dont know why it got the number 86 lolz
http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum86/
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 06:20 AM |
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lurcher
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welcome to the forum ! drop by the new guy thread and say hello to the gang,dont know why it got the number 86 lolz
http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum86/
thanks have done so.
The best seater designs have full length body sleeves to improve bullet alignment into the case - that means the Forster BR and Redding Competition dies and no others. At all.
Absolutely not trying to split hairs, but what about wilson? I have gone with wilson seaters so I can escape my freezing cold basement in winter and seat bullets on an arbor press inside the house...
i do have a few barrels that the brass gets indexed in the barrel the dies etc
Ok so here's another question, from my reading and watching video's guys seem to fall into three camps, those that don't weigh brass (most people), those that weigh brass (some people) and those (very few?) that index cases based on case wall thickness near the web measured on a neco concentricity tool, or other ways? (saw this on a David Tubbs video).
I could see myself weighing cases if this was going to help, but the case indexing thing, that's getting pretty serious.
What is the consensus on weighing cases, if they are Lapua or norma I understand that there is hopefully not much variation, but for the cheaper stuff is this worthwhile?
Last edited on Sun Oct 18th, 2009 06:22 AM by lurcher
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 11:22 AM |
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swampshooter
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If you are striving to reduce your group sizes, and your vertical group size exceeds the horizontal size then sorting cases by weight is worth while. For long range shooting, ie over 300 yards, but especially 500 yards and beyond it is critical in order to eliminate vertical stringing, especially when using American made brass.
Most of us who do much long range shooting have permanently removed the Remington type plunger ejector, so that is not a consideration. Removing the firing pin eliminates the spring tension that is present when closing the bolt. It has nothing to do with cocking the firing pin.
As far as I'm concerned, if you have a case that needs to be indexed in order to shoot well, it should be totally eliminated from your test samples. Indexing could only be done while bench-rest shooting, and bench-rest shooters all have their own ideas about what is worthwhile and what is not.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 03:37 PM |
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fryboy
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weighing the brass and segregating it ....it's not too practical on a box of 20 lolz but on a lot of 100-5000 or so ..alot will depend on how u make ur lots, i like lots of 50,anything not within the range gets delegated to the plinker pile,take the poor humble 30-30 case for example , i have several calibers that are formed from this "basic brass" but as swampy noted i use alot of american made brass,only have to weigh it once ,i only have a couple rounds that i'm real anal about (fortunately for me these are in the tc platform)i also have a surplus rifle that the chamber is out of round ,that one i index,it was a ww2 bring back and it's groups improve with indexing i also dont shoot but about 100 rounds out of it a year ,to me a new barrel isnt feasible,easy add on parts such as a better trigger can be switched with no mods( other than adjustment)it's shorter brother( a carbine) had already been butchered( umm sporterized)and it has a great chamber while it may go hunting the other never does,while i like the remington action i only have three, big medium and small,the big and small are a run wut ya brung proposition for me the medium get's a lil more love( heavy barreled varminter)i'm more enamored over the howa's and ruger actions( and the single shots lolz )
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20th, 2009 07:13 PM |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 07:58 PM |
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SteveBrX
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fryboy wrote: if ur bolt is semi modern ....it cocks on opening ,if it's old and ur serious about it has been retro fitted with either a new bolt or a cock on opening kit , while this may preload some pressure in the bolt it wont be between the the bolt handle and the bolt face ,which is where ur headpace is going to be
http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum86/
While its true it cocks when opening it on a 700 for example your not loading the firing spring until you close the bolt that's why we need to strip the bolt in order to get rid of the firing spring tension that you will feel when closing the bolt, once the bolt is stripped it is then possible to "Feel" that you have set your fl sizing die correctly, bolt handle should just drop with ever so slight pressure after doing it once or twice you will easily develop the correct "Feel",
Having a accurate rifle means developing accurate ammunition and paying attention to every detail.
Keep'em in the Middle and have fun doing it!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20th, 2009 11:24 PM |
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swampshooter
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Stevebrx +1  Altough the firing pin cocks on opening the bolt, it does retract slightly more when in contact with the sear, creating pressure.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21st, 2009 09:10 AM |
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Paul Tummers
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Does the firing pin retract when coming in contact with the sear or stays the firing pin in its place while the bolt moves slightly forward when the lugs engage ?
Regards,
Paul T.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21st, 2009 01:07 PM |
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SteveBrX
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Good morning, as you open the bolt the fireing pin spring extends by way of the ramp cutout at the back of the bolt,
as you close the bolt the cocking piece (which by way of roll pin is attached to the firing pin) engages the sear and the sear holds the cocking piece and as the lugs engage by closing the bolt, you begin compressing the firing pin spring which now has the cocking piece hovering behind the ramp cutout in the back of the bolt.
when you pull the trigger the firing pin assy moves forward down into the ramp area of the bolt untill you open the bolt reseting the cocking piece back far enough so it can catch the sear when you close the bolt again...
this seems hard to put in print, and so easy just to show someone when your standing next to them, I hope this helps.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22nd, 2009 01:17 PM |
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swampshooter
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Paul, the bolt is moving forward and turning, as it does so the cocking notch in the bolt is moved away from the cocking piece, which is captured by the sear, and now the cocking piece is held by the sear alone. When the sear captures the cocking piece there is of course spring tension on the cocking piece and firing pin.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22nd, 2009 01:46 PM |
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Paul Tummers
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swampshooter wrote: Paul, the bolt is moving forward and turning, as it does so the cocking notch in the bolt is moved away from the cocking piece, which is captured by the sear, and now the cocking piece is held by the sear alone. When the sear captures the cocking piece there is of course spring tension on the cocking piece and firing pin.
You are right, and this extra little bit of spring tension also keeps the bolt in its locked position- othewise the bolt would turn when the gun is turned upside down, just from the weight of the bolt grip knob.
Regards,
Paul T.
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