| Posted: Sun Jul 26th, 2009 06:35 PM |
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KB88
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I want to make a load for a standard 3" shell that can take any game on the planet. I would really like to get 4,000 ft-lbs of energy out of this shell. Can this be safely accomplished?
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26th, 2009 06:52 PM |
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Rockydog
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KB88, There is a guy out on the net, Ed Hubel, who has done exactly this and has literally hundreds of posts about his methods. Including U-tube postings. You might want to start here on our sister sight:
http://www.baitshopboyz.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10178&PN=1
I think there are about a dozen pages of posts Titled "12 gauge from Hell" You won't get through them all in a short time. IIRC Ed is over 3900 FPS with a 12 gauge heavy slug in 3.5" loads. He has even developed modified 50BMG cases for shotgun use. RD
Last edited on Sun Jul 26th, 2009 06:55 PM by Rockydog
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| Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 01:17 AM |
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Novashooter
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Well if you wanted to use it in a normal 12 gauge about 3,500 foot pounds would be pushing it at 12,000psi or more. The average 3" barely makes 3000 foot pounds.
That 12 gauge from hell, man, I doubt that is under 35000psi holy smokes. You might as well buy a good .600 nitro express then.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 03:23 AM |
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.45 COLT
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James Gates has put together some very potent 12 Gauge loads.
http://www.dixieslugs.com
His slugs are his design. I don't think he has made them available for reloading. His Tri-Ball load, while probably not the best medicine for a charging Rhino, is also pretty nasty. He has posted loading instructions for his current one (.600") on castboolits.com and for his earlier one (.570") on beartoothbullets.com.
DCLast edited on Sat Aug 1st, 2009 03:24 AM by .45 COLT
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| Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 03:24 AM |
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KB88
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Do you know the maximum pressure a double gun could take before pressure gets dangerous?
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| Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 03:26 AM |
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.45 COLT
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SAAMI maximum for 2 3/4" and 3" 12 Gauge guns is 11,500 PSI. For 3 1/2", 14,000 PSI.
DC
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| Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 03:39 AM |
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KB88
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I saw Gates's cartridges and noticed that they're relatively low powered.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 04:20 AM |
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.45 COLT
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The "Tusker" is 600 Grains @ 1,550 FPS. That's not exactly low powered, probably as good as you'll get without a specially-built gun.
DC
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| Posted: Sat Aug 1st, 2009 04:41 AM |
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KB88
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Can that take any game?
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Novashooter
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If you wan't 4000 foot pounds of energy, your only choice would be to buy lightfeilds IDS 3 1/2" sabot slugs and fork up the cash to special order a 3 1/2" slug barrel. You could just use a regular smooth bore but accracy might suffer. They are designed for rifled barrels but will fly right out of a smooth bore. Last edited on Sat Aug 1st, 2009 07:17 AM by Novashooter
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.45 COLT
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If 4,000 FtLb is some sort of benchmark, then you better get a rifle. Even Lightfield's 3 1/2" Saboted slug only reaches 3,725 FtLb, and with a smoothbore, any hit would be luck.
For a smoothbore, I think the best would be the Dixie offering. At reasonable range and decent shot placement, it'll kill anything you happen to run into. Anyplace. A 600 Grain bullet is hard to stop.
DC
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Novashooter
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There is no 12 gauge that can take any game. You might be able to modify a 10 gauge to 4000 foot pounds, but it will be very difficult. You just cant do it with a 12 gauge. If you dont have a price limit an 8 gauge will do it. It depends on what you consider any game. If you consider any game, any thing up to elephant, you will need a special 10 gauge or 8 gauge. If you consider any game, anything up to about a moose, you dont need 4000 foot pounds. Ballistics products AQ slug at 1500fps and 2200 foot pounds will take almost everything up to moose, because they don't expand much.
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.45 COLT
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Novashooter wrote: There is no 12 gauge that can take any game. You might be able to modify a 10 gauge to 4000 foot pounds, but it will be very difficult. You just cant do it with a 12 gauge. If you dont have a price limit an 8 gauge will do it. It depends on what you consider any game. If you consider any game, any thing up to elephant, you will need a special 10 gauge or 8 gauge. If you consider any game, anything up to about a moose, you dont need 4000 foot pounds. Ballistics products AQ slug at 1500fps and 2200 foot pounds will take almost everything up to moose, because they don't expand much.
Some pretty strong statements. I tend to disagree. 4,000 Foot Pounds crops up again, which I don’t quite understand. Is that the Holy Grail, a level that must be attained for a load to be effective?
Walter D. M. Bell, a White Hunter of the early 20th Century used a .275 Rigby, loaded with a 140 Grain bullet to a MV of 2800 FPS and a ME of 2,435 FtLb on Elephants.
Peter Thornily, hunting both North America and Africa, developed his Stopping Power formula. A figure of 150 or greater is sufficient for anything up to the great bears, 250 for any animal.
The “Taylor Knockout” value is also considered by some to be a good comparison of various cartridges.
A few 12 Gauge loads and a .458 Winchester Magnum, all at 50 yards:
LEE Slug, handloaded:
TKO, 54. Thornily, 206
Foster Slug, Factory:
TKO, 57. Thornily, 210
Punkin Ball, handloaded:
TKO, 62. Thornily, 231
Dixie’s Tusker:
TKO, 82. Thornily, 301
.458 Win Mag:
TKO, 58. Thornily, 253
Maybe something to think about.
DC
Last edited on Sun Aug 2nd, 2009 11:08 AM by .45 COLT
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Novashooter
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Yes, to kill big game you don't need energy. What you need is a big hole and a lot of penetration. I'm sure not going to try it, but I bet a 12gauge with some of the less expandable slugs like the brenneke's and tusker, I bet those would kill an elephant if brain shot. If your just looking for a defense load for in the woods go with the Dixie slugs for rifled barrels or the AQ for smooth bore. They will kill a moose.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20th, 2009 05:07 AM |
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KB88
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Ed Hubbel kindly replied to my question via email and suggested the 150 grains of the new Re17 powder, and said that can move a 600 grain bullet for the 12 bore out to 1800 fps in a 3" shell.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20th, 2009 09:52 PM |
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Novashooter
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150 grainss?! Don't do it. It will probably blow up!
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20th, 2009 10:28 PM |
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KB88
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That's what Ed Hubel told me. He said the 3" plastic shell can handle it.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20th, 2009 10:28 PM |
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KB88
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Maybe he mistyped and meant 15.0?
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20th, 2009 10:58 PM |
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Novashooter
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KB88 wrote:
Maybe he mistyped and meant 15.0?
ahh, I would shy away from it. 15 seems a bit low. Reloader 17 is for small bore rifles. I don't think you will get any more than about 1700 fps (if that) safely. 1500 fps with those AQ slugs will be about the most performance you can squeeze out of a smooth bore shotgun. I haven't seen to many 3" loads for slugs, maybe a few but factory is basically the only 3" slugs makers. Ballistics Products at one time offered a slugs called the expander. That slug was a little under bore size but 2 3/4" load went up to 1600 fps I believe. I am really intrigued by their AQ slugs though. It is like no other and is very accurate in my shotguns. The most powder you will see in a shotgun shell is about 40 grains. 45, maybe but it would be an unusual powder. 15 grains is not enough to get it up to 1800 fps. Have him clarify what slug, wad, hull, and primer was used. Definitely have him recheck the powder. I doubt there is a shotgun load with reloader 17. The heaviest slugs that you will find that goes at 1800 fps is under 437 grains. He is wrong.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20th, 2009 11:31 PM |
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KB88
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This is the email he sent me (direct quotation):
You can get over 4000 ft lbs 3" plastic cases
using rifle powders that shot gun primers will
fire off reliably. They are VV110, IMR4759,
IMR4227, and the new RE17. Re17 is the best
and with 600 gr hardened full bore slugs and
150 gr of RE17 you can get 1800 fps for
over 4300 ft lbs energy. For 3" plastic cases
you can get new real cheap as well as once fired
3.5" cheaper yet, and cut them off to 3".
And get a roll crimper for drill press and a
MEC Super Sizer to make cases better than they
com from the factory.Good hunting, Ed
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