| Posted: Fri Aug 21st, 2009 09:50 PM |
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41st Post |
KB88
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Thank you for your informative post Ed!
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 01:39 AM |
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42nd Post |
Rockydog
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ED, Welcome to Handloadersbench. Thanks for the posts and updates. I hope you aren't upset that I linked your BSB Blog over here. I was just trying to answer K88's question with info from the most forward thinking shotgun slug guy out there. I just realized that I should have probably asked your permission first. One question for you if I could. Have you ever pushed one too far, resulting in gun damage or danger to yourself? RD
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 03:07 AM |
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43rd Post |
hubel458
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I'm glad you brought me over here. All of us guys experimenting want get the word out. There are a couple
dozen of us doing various things and lot of same things.
Like this pair of NEFs RIP over on AR forums rigged up.
They come from factory with heavy barrels and we lengthen
chambers from 3" to 3.5" or 3.85". I've never had a
blowup,as we try to make sure of strong actions and
heavy modern steel barrels.And I have the basic formula
that is the basis for the Powley computer and Quickload
all laid out in charts and I'm able to reverse it based on
my chrono readings to verify peak pressures I want, to
work up loads. So along with using more of slow powders
to get more velocity, we also have an major important,
second reason for the much slower powders,
IE rifle powders, is they are not as pressure sensitive
to component changes like fast shotgun powders.
And I also measure case base expansion, and that gives a
relative measurement to watch pressures. Ed
Last edited on Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 03:20 AM by hubel458
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 03:32 AM |
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44th Post |
KB88
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Ed is there any way to modify a factory double gun to handle the 14,500 psi from the 150 gr load of Re17?
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 06:07 AM |
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45th Post |
hubel458
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The actions of all modern heavy 10 and 12gauges will hold
pressures ok, but barrels are too slim at the muzzle, so
you just have to figure a way to get heavy barrels.
Well ROB on AR forums is doing it by monoblocking in heavy 12ga
rifled barrels into a heavy Spanish Zabala 10ga. It has double
underlugs and a Greener crossbolt and is as strong any
30,000 dollar doublegun built for NE cartridges. Just cut off barrels
leaving about 4 inches of breech and he threaded it and barrels
and puts them together. He made new ribs for between barrels
and right now he is soldering them together and regulating them
to shoot to the same point of aim. He by the way was the
person who named the 12GA From Hell and had the first idea
of it in real long brass cases. And this gun here will handle
twice the pressures you are asking about, in our brass cases.
We limit the12ga plastic cases to about 15000 psi.Ed
Last edited on Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 06:13 AM by hubel458
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 06:30 AM |
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46th Post |
miestro_jerry
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The size, weight and muscle mass of the game is what is important with the animal. With the hunter, having a really good skill with the weapon, understanding the load, plenty of practice and understand his/her prey.
Me, I would use a Brennke slug in a 12 ga 3 1/2 Magnum shell or a 10 Ga. with an appropriate slug.
Even then I would have a back up, one of the larger Nitro Express rifles, a JD Jones hand cannon, something as a backup.
I saw a water buffalo in southeast Asia, that a soldier popped 3 rounds into with an M2HB and the beast still was not dead. It took a couple 2 more shoots. He may have not been the best shot in the world, 5 50 BMG at close range is a power cartridge for that sort of game.
Jerry
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 06:47 AM |
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47th Post |
KB88
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Last edited on Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 06:58 AM by KB88
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 06:47 AM |
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48th Post |
KB88
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That's a beautiful gun he made.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 06:57 AM |
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49th Post |
KB88
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With seals wads and slugs the 3"
plastic cases holds 115gr of RE17 and the 3.5" case holds
150gr. Tested 600gr in a 24' barrel 115gr in 3" case about
1800 fps. Same slug in 3.5" case,more powder more velocity.
These loads and others we developed with IMR 4227,4759,
tested at at 14,700 psi.
I'm confused, which tested at 14,700 psi, the 3.5 or the 3? If it was the 3.5, which pressure did the 3" with 115 gr test at?
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 07:07 AM |
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50th Post |
hubel458
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The 3" tested at 14,700. The 3.5" also nearly the same
or not more than a few hundred psi higher.
The extra length allows little more cushion wads and plus the
extra case volumne, keep peak pressures about the same. Now
the 150 gr in 3.5" will have more powder burning little further
down barrel so the muzzle pressure will be higher.
That accounts for extra velocity of 200-250 fps over the 3".
Barrels might split if they are too light. The 3" loads
in plastic with 115gr of RE17 shouldn't be fired in
thinner than .92" muzzles. If lighter cut back like
if they have .88" muzzle cut back to 100gr.
if lighter no slug loads at all..I have measured
12ga with muzzles that are as thin as .82" muzzles.
Considering that 12ga is .72-.73" bore you can see the
danger.And if thinner than .92" your taking a chance with
3.5" cases and 150 gr RE17. And in all of this modern steel
barrels with some alloy for strength. Not old barrels
with weaker steel like black powder barrels or the
old damascus stuff. By the way the SAvage is a
12ga boltgun from the factory that came with .92" bbl, and has
3 front locking lugs and with heavy barrel I changed to,
I run 30-40,000 psi loads in it with long strong
brass cases. In heavy barrel NEF ultra I do 20-27000 psi
loads in brass cases. But any plastic we fire in these is kept
down to 15,000. I really do wish someone
made a double 12 with muzzles about an inch in
diameter.Factory NEF Ultra is 1.070". The 12ga Encore is
1". My Savage with replaced barrel is 1.1" muzzle.
My extended barrel NEF is 1" muzzle. My 1887 WIN levergun
replacement long barrel is 1.1" muzzle.Here is pic.
Notice the real thick pad.Ed
Last edited on Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 07:48 AM by hubel458
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 02:51 PM |
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51st Post |
KB88
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What performance does 100 gr of Re17 give?
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 05:17 PM |
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52nd Post |
hubel458
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With 600gr 1550-1600 fps which is ok but light barrel
guns means guns are light weight and kick like hell.
That is why I say no more than a NEf Ultras costs
and reaming to 3.5 inch chamber, you are miles ahead
as they are easy to weight, and will handle the much
stronger loads with much less felt recoil.
And add thickest recoil pads. Or put
heaviest barrels you can find on pumpguns.
The other thing is with light barrels is to go lighter slugs
in sabots like 350gr,385gr,420gr or so in BPI sabot.
Them 100gr of RE17 gets you 1900 plus fps with 385gr.EdLast edited on Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 05:23 PM by hubel458
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23rd, 2009 05:41 AM |
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53rd Post |
KB88
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Who is the guy who made that double barrel?
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23rd, 2009 06:11 AM |
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54th Post |
hubel458
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Robgunbuilder on the accuratereloading.com forums
in the big bore section. You can PM him on that
forum. Ed
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23rd, 2009 02:30 PM |
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55th Post |
Novashooter
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Is there any way of getting a 3 1/2" pump shotgun to handle those loads? And would a heavy barreled single shot right out of the box handle the 14700 psi 3" loads?
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23rd, 2009 05:05 PM |
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56th Post |
hubel458
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Yes the heavy barreled NEF Ultra right out of the box.
That is what we do, and the 14-15,000 psi loads match
the max peak pressures. of REM buckhammer factory loads.
Also the heavy rifled barrel 12ga Rossi and TC Encore.
And you can change to heavier rifled slug barrels on pumps.
Like this Ithaca has.Ed
Last edited on Sun Aug 23rd, 2009 05:08 PM by hubel458
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23rd, 2009 05:12 PM |
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57th Post |
KB88
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I wonder if there is a way to take a factory double and fortify the barrels at the end.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23rd, 2009 10:40 PM |
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58th Post |
miestro_jerry
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That I would not try at home, you may be creating a dmascus type collar around your barrel. Every seen an old damascus barrel that some tried modern ammo in? Or just over loading a dmascus barrel will casue the welds to let go.
Consult with a professional who has liability insurance before trying to add metal to a barrel.
Jerry
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24th, 2009 01:41 AM |
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59th Post |
KB88
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That's scary. Can the Damascus collar be avoided if professionally done?
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24th, 2009 01:55 AM |
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60th Post |
miestro_jerry
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I would have a company that makes barrels create one for you. It won't be cheap, but it mostly lively will serve you well for many years.
The Deerslayer III looks like a great rifle for these very powerful rounds, but in this case, I would prefer a custom build gun. But that is my personal preference.
Seriously look at compensator and a limb saver for this sort of rifle.
Jerry
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