| Posted: Mon Aug 24th, 2009 02:49 AM |
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61st Post |
KB88
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What kind of cost am I looking at for the barrels?
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24th, 2009 03:19 AM |
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62nd Post |
Rockydog
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KB88, I might be missing something here but I can't for the life of me figure out any way a person could reasonably, or simply, strengthen a set of double barrels other than doing it the way Ed showed in his earlier post. To do any other way you'd have to completely remove the top and under ribs place sleeves over the barrels and rebuild and resolder the ribs (needed in Ed's example too) which would now be much too wide to fit between the barrels. I wanted a repair made on a SxS shotgun with a loose rib and couldn't find any body to do 6" of rib for under $250. The cost to do this for full length top and bottom ribs would run far higher than $250. I ended up doing it myself for about $15 worth of materials.
There is another way. Run a set of smaller caliber barrels inside a larger barrel. This would have to entail reaming the inside of the larger barrels and the turning the outside of the smaller barrels to identical tapers. In fact there is a thread in "Special Projects" over on castboolits where a guy is doing just that to make a double rifle from a SXS Shotgun. If you did this you'd want an action with multiple locking lugs. The upside is perhaps you could even use rifled slug barrels. The downside is unless you've got the skills and access to machine tools this is a big bucks project. Lathe and mill time is not cheap.
Not wanting to dash your plans. Just being a realist. RD
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24th, 2009 03:57 AM |
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63rd Post |
miestro_jerry
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RD,
I agree with you on this, most people do not understand what all it takes to make some these weapons.
Currently I am flutting a barrel in 308 Win. I did not make the barrel, I am just milling it. My shop time can be $160 to $300 an hour. Owning such machinery is not cheap, the end mills and other tooling stuff are not cheap at all. Some things people can do themselves if they have the basic skills. Doing silver soldering is not that difficult and easily learned.
One piece of advice, if you have Harbor Ffieght machinery, such as their small lathe or mill/drill, these machines are the capacble of the precision quality that is needed for a lot of gun work.
Learning to do a single point threading is difficult, the guy who gave me some training, his final lesson was for me to do a left handed thread that was also backwards. This takes a lot of thought and a good machine.
If you want to have a really custom weapon let a company build it for you, most people can change parts of a weapon, very few can build one from scrath.
Jerry
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24th, 2009 04:07 AM |
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64th Post |
Rockydog
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Jerry, Isn't a backwards left handed thread by definition a right handed thread? RD
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24th, 2009 04:08 AM |
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65th Post |
hubel458
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12ga rifled barrels from Pacnor about 300 bucks each
a Zabala double ten 600 bucks, and you monoblock
them in. There is no way to strengthen a double barrel
on the outside safely. And sleeving is ok for putting
much smaller bores in big barrels but the 10ga doubles
are not really super oversize in comparing to sleeving
back to 12 gauge. The muzzle of the Zabala 10ga was only
a few thousands bigger that the rifled barrel on the
Savage 210 12ga slug gun. Because I was thinking of
sleeving also, but no go,The barrels Rob monoblocked in
are about an inch at the muzzle.The Ithaca Deersayer is
a rifled 12ga, about 1100 bucks I heard.Nice fluted heavy barrel.EdLast edited on Mon Aug 24th, 2009 04:11 AM by hubel458
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24th, 2009 04:14 AM |
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66th Post |
Rockydog
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So ed what you are saying is $1200 for barrels and base gun. Can you do the machining, ribs, extractors,etc for another $600? or much higher? RD
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24th, 2009 05:31 AM |
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67th Post |
miestro_jerry
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RD,
A backwards left handed thread is used for extracting collets in some equipment housing, it is a mirror of right handed thread.
With this project, money doesn't seem to be the issue, but maybe weight could become an issue, it has to be if some one is going to carry any distance and if it has enough weight to absorb some of the recoil.
Jerryu
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24th, 2009 06:28 AM |
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68th Post |
hubel458
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You can't get all the machine work done that cheap.
Rob's been working on his all winter,spring,summer
off and on. I can't do it as I don't have fancy machines.
You need CNCs to redo ribs and right lathe tools
and chucks to thread monoblocks. I only do my own
stuff in a primitive way. Like I do single barrel
monoblock on NEFs. Good shop craftsman with machines might
do it for 5 grand. Might as He'll have 200 hours in it.
Huge work time, is why double rifled guns, that are
regulated with soldered ribs, cost so much. Ed
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24th, 2009 10:51 AM |
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69th Post |
Rockydog
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Thanks Ed. That puts it all in perspective. RD
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hubel458
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Here is picture of the Mauser GEHA shotgun I
setup with an Savage 210 rifled barrel. Used a Savage
plastic stock also. It is setup with the original 3"
chamber. I have many guys who want ideas and slug/load
combination's tested in regular rifled slug barrels, so
this is the one. Most testing will be 3" plastic cases.
Barrel 24" long, .93" regular slug size muzzle diameter.
The GEHA was originally converted from 98 Mausers in
Germany in the 20s, to 12ga by reaming outl the front lug seats
and using the rear safety lug. I added a second rear
bearing lug and it handles 15,000 psi loads ok.
The cases come out with the weight of the bolt.
That will be max pressure used in it, with that slug gun
barrel thickness. Example load is 115gr of RE17 in 3"
plastic case, with 520 gr Lyman cast slug at 1850 plus fps.
This load expands the plastic case base cups about .005",
in comparison, a REM factory Buckhammer and other super
mag turkey and goose loads expands .010".
And we have over 300 fps more velocity.Ed
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14th, 2009 04:03 PM |
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71st Post |
hubel458
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There are many guys out there with slug
designs and sabot ideas.Here is BPI sabot setup
Left 2 sabots 420 gr lead and on right 385 gr lead..
Another one, .660" diameter 630 gr hard cast
slugs in the red WIN wadcup in 3.5" plastic
case. Tested in rifled long barrel in 12ga
NEF about 2100 fps. Are hollow point. I also fired
a couple to see if they'd work in my long
brass cased 16GA FH shown in the picture.
They work ok, so Greg has a double duty
slug.They'd work in 16ga plastic also.
The 16ga was held at 1500 as the barrel
isn't heavy, on Stevens/Revelation 16ga. Ed
Once you get NEF and lengthen chamber you can
shoot both 3.5" plastic and brass cases.
Comparing brass cases.I tell everybody who are stepping
up in power from 3.5 plastic, to the 3.5" brass cases
from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. Here you can see how heavy
and nice they are compared to regular brass cases.
They fit the chamber tight and are long enough to
get some serious thumping power.And they have a
super strong, thick , solid head, not a weak balloon head
like regular ones on the left in pics.Ed
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15th, 2009 12:45 AM |
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72nd Post |
Novashooter
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I'm still having a hard time believing you got a 520gr slug at 1850fps and still be under 15000psi.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15th, 2009 01:08 AM |
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73rd Post |
miestro_jerry
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I would like to know approx, how much pressure these shells would generate.
I can build a bolt gun for 12 gauge or probably buy one that is based upon a Mauser action.
Jerry
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15th, 2009 05:26 AM |
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74th Post |
hubel458
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For 12ga bolt guns you can get Savage 210,
Mossberg 695, Browning 12ga bolt gun, etc.
I have Savage and I put in heavy barrel,
Like the heavy barrel on a NEF Ultra slug gun.
The Nef is only 260 bucks, with rifled heavy barrel.
Savage 210 now is 500 bucks and its triple locking
lugs are stronger than any regular rifle.
Our slow powder loads we have had many pressure tested
at a lab with a pressure gun using a pressure transducer.
Example load is 90gr of 4759 or 94gr 4227 getting a 600gr
slug to 1930 fps average for 5 shots, and 14,560 psi
average for 5 shots. Test gun had 30" barrel.Same
loads in a shorter 24" NEF barrel gave 1830 fps.
And using the slower RE17, which I like better, gives
less pressure with 20% more powder, and gets same
great velocity. Cases expand so much less with RE17
I can load them again and chamber them without
resizing.These slow powder loads still use seals and
cushion wads and being slow in a barrel with a huge hole,
pressures are low. A 12ga has 6-7 times the cross section area
as say a 30-06, so slower powders make it hard to
jump up to dangerous pressures.In 3"cases with minimum seals and
cushions needed, I can pack in all the RE17 that it holds, a
115gr, 520gr slug,and it doesn't expand the base of the shell as much
as hot factory slug(Buckhammer), turkey or goose loads.EdLast edited on Tue Sep 15th, 2009 05:40 AM by hubel458
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 05:31 AM |
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75th Post |
KB88
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Is the 14,500 psi really enough to blow up factory double shotguns, or safe if done on a heavy frame O/U?
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 08:18 AM |
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76th Post |
.45 COLT
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KB88 wrote: Is the 14,500 psi really enough to blow up factory double shotguns, or safe if done on a heavy frame O/U?
If you have questions about pressures and standard shotguns, you might want to read the SAAMI publication
American National Standard Voluntary Industry Performance Standards For Pressure and Velocity of Shotshell Ammunition For the use of Commercial Manufacturers
It's a 100 page document, probably contains more information than you'll ever use, want or need, but it's a worthwhile read for anybody who has questions.
It can be downloaded here:
http://www.saami.org/Publications/209.pdf
DC
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 08:56 AM |
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77th Post |
hubel458
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That 14,560 psi and similar test pressures are the peak
pressures. With our slower powders, the pressures
down the barrels are higher than with the much
faster shotgun powders.So you must have modern steel, slug
barrels of about .92" od on the muzzle.If barrel is smaller
cut the loads back or go to the slowest shotgun powders,
in smaller amounts,which are still faster than our powders.
We've experimented with Alliant Steel and it gets pretty
good velocity as you can use more of it than the real
fast shotgun powders.With 60 gr of Alliant Steel in BPI
sabot/400 gr slug, in 3.5" case,we get over 2400 fps.
In a 3" case, 50gr ,2100 fps.Some O/U barrels been tested
for high pressures, will work, and I don't of any USA
made doubles.That is why Rob is putting heavy barrels
on the double I pictured above.And like this 835 Mossy with
slug barrel muzzle as heavy as the Savage at .93"...Ed
Last edited on Thu Sep 17th, 2009 09:01 AM by hubel458
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 03:42 PM |
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KB88
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Are the Beretta O/U's tested for high pressure?
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 06:49 PM |
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hubel458
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I don't know. It should be stamped on any gun
made in Europe, usually in BARS which each BAR
is about 14.4 lbs psi. Example if it is tested say
at 2000 BARS that equates to 28,000 plus psi.
The only O/U I seen advertised as being tested
high is one of the Zoli's. Probably more.Ed
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 02:43 AM |
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Novashooter
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If slow powders give so much less pressure why do all the factories use fast powders?
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