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Magnum primers versus standard large rifle primers
 Moderated by: klallen, fryboy Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2   
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 Posted: Mon Oct 31st, 2005 06:09 AM
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Leonard
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I'm glad it worked for you.

First thought that comes to mind is that the level of advice from gun shop clerks is always questionable.

Second is; it is not logical, if what you mean by full case load is a charge that completely fills the case?  Compressed loads of 4350 and 4831 do not need magnum primers in any case under 75/80 grains of powder....generally speaking.  Spherical powders loads, different situation.

But,  just to belabor the point, I'd like you to try it again with the large rifle primers, same cartridge, same load, same bullet.  You just don't get misfires from max loads because you didn't use magnum primers. 

A misfire is a misfire, a magnum primer won't change that condition.

Did you try to fire the misfires a second time?  Did the primers dish in completely, or did it just have a light impression of the firing pin?  Did you tumble your brass in crushed walnut media, and did you check to see if the flash hole was clear, or might there have been a piece of media lodged in the hole?

You had something wrong.  Changing to mag primers was a fortunate circumstance.  But, if you have no other issues, velocity is good, no excessive pressures, accuracy is acceptable, etc.  Then, no harm done?

On the other hand, if you develop a safe load, and then change to magnum primers with the same charge weight, you are very likely to increase your pressures beyond a safe condition.  It is always better to work up your load with the magnum primer, all the way, not switch it only when you have progressed to a full case load, assuming you mean no air space in the case.

Good hunting.  LB



 Posted: Mon Oct 31st, 2005 12:47 PM
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BigBill
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I had 5 rounds out of 20 that missfired with standard primers and with magnum primers I haven't had any missfires in over 30 years now. I didn't have a tumbler back then.  My cases were clean and i just cleaned the primer pocket on the once fired brass. The holes were open in the primer pockets. I did everything by the book back then, I'm a stickler for perfection and doing things right. Since the accuracy was ok and they all went bang I never changed the load nor played with it again.  A cheap $172/ "1972" rifle that can shoot 3/4" groups @ 100yds i can't complain.



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 Posted: Mon Oct 31st, 2005 12:59 PM
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Handgunr
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Bill......
 
Leonard's post is correct regarding different primers; standard or magnum.
Regardless of which you use, either one "should" ignite the load, and a misfire, or failure to fire, would definitely be from a mechanical defect of some sort.
I also agree with Leonard about "gunshop advice", they, more than likely, know less about the whole thing than you do.
They'll offer "what they think" is the right advice, and I don't think that most would purposely try to steer you wrong, necessarily, but in the shops I've seen many, many, more opinions offered, than facts. Dangerous when it comes to handloading.
 
Now, between standard and magnum primers, efficency is another issue, but either one of the primers should ignite the charge. One primer, more than the other, probably will give better accuracy depending on the powder, or weight, that you're using.
 
I had troubles with CCI's a few years back and after a good long conversation with their "tech dept. supervisor", we came to the conclusion that CCI's primer cups were well up on the higher side of the industry standards "allowable limits" regarding cup diameter.
When seating the larger cups into a case with smaller pocket tolerances, the chances of fracturing the priming compound was much greater.
It swaged the cup down somewhat, fracturing the priming compound and basically rendering the primer useless. 
Rarely did a second strike of the firing pin ignite the round.
I've always seated my primers by feel, and although there is always a possiblity of not seating a primer "bottomed out" in the pocket, this is a real rarity.
I also mentioned the wide spread common suspicion that CCI cups were harder overall.....he said "no". 
But I suspect that maybe something to do with the nickling of the primer cup, or some other factor, attributes to it's overall seemingly greater hardness over other makes.
 
I eventually switched from CCI's to Federal Match, and Winchester primers and the problem disappeared. 
As recommended, I am very meticulous about handling my primers, and I seal them in waterproof containers with silica bags designed for such. If I have to handle a single primer for any reason, I use tweezers.  
 
Take care,
Bob



 Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 02:22 AM
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rifleman
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I want to add that if you are going from a LR primer to a LRM primer and use the same load, you will not shoot the same groups. You will need to rework the load and you will see that it too will tighten up. The Mag primer will have more pressure and may act like up'ing a few grains of powder when switching primers. Another thing to remember is that if your loads are near MAX using a LR primer, don't switch to a MAG primer unless you go down a couple grains and work back up.

Jude



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 Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 02:34 PM
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bea175
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In all the pressure test that have been done Fed 215 magnum primers are the coolest mag primers you can use, and WLRM primers the hottest. You can safely switch from standard primers to Fed 215 mag without changing the pressure curve a great deal as long as you are not at the max load for the load with the  standard primers. If you switch to Win Mag primers you need to reduce the load at least 5% and work up. Win mag primers with change max pressure up to 10,000 psi over standard primers where Fed 215 will change the pressure on the average of around  2,000 psi. In my opinion any time you switch from standard to mag primers you should reduce the load at least 5% and work up regardless of brand of primers. Big Bill your misfires happened because of a bad batch of primers or contaminated primers , you couldn't get enough 4350 in a 06 case to get a misfire from standard primers the best you could do would be a hang fire and i seriously dough that. The mag primer worked because there was nothing wrong with them . You could have gotten a batch of standard primers with the cups to hard or your rifle may have a weak firing pin spring due to its age. If i was getting misfires i would take the bolt apart and clean it and if that didn't help i would replace the firing pin spring. Just my opinion from years of reloading. One other thing if you use cases that have loose fitting primer pockets and you hunt in wet weather , water can seep into the case from the loose fit and you will get a misfire. Remington primers and loose primer pockets are the worst offenders for this to happen.:thumbs:



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 Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 07:06 PM
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rifleman
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bea175, I was always under the impression that federal 215 Mag primers were the hottest primers on the market. I only use the federal 215M Match primers as I found that I get tighter groups using them in magnum loads such as with my 25 WSM and 8mm Grizzly. I remember seeing somewhere, a list of psi's for each primer and the federal were on top. If I locate it. I will post here.

Jude



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 Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 09:29 PM
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billt
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rifleman wrote: bea175, I was always under the impression that federal 215 Mag primers were the hottest primers on the market. I only use the federal 215M Match primers as I found that I get tighter groups using them in magnum loads such as with my 25 WSM and 8mm Grizzly. I remember seeing somewhere, a list of psi's for each primer and the federal were on top. If I locate it. I will post here.

Jude

 

I was always under that same impression. Federal 215's were the hottest.  Bill T.



 Posted: Fri May 5th, 2006 10:32 PM
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bea175
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Here is data from actual testing of different primers.:confused:
 
Here is a short summary of the A-Square test of primers in the Remington 7mm Mag. as published in "Handloader" magazine.

160 grain Sierra boat-tail, 66.0 grains of Hodgdon H-4831 and Winchester cases.


Winchester WLRM (magnum) 3045 fps, 67,600 psi

Winchester WLR (standard) 3024 fps, 64,400 psi

Federal 215 (magnum) 3036 fps, 61,400 psi

CCI 250 (magnum) 3039 fps, 61,500 psi

Remington 9½ M (magnum) 3041 fps, 59,300 psi

CCI 200 (standard) 3011 fps, 54,800 psi



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 Posted: Sat May 6th, 2006 11:43 AM
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billt
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Here is a question I've wondered about for a long time. Is the pressure increase proportionate from standard to Magnum primers for different calibers? For example, is it the same percentage of pressure increase for a .300 Winchester Mag. burning 70.0 grains with a 180 gr. bullet as it is for say a .338-378 Weatherby burning well over 100 grains with a 300 gr. bullet? No manual I have addresses this.  Bill T.



 Posted: Sat May 6th, 2006 03:21 PM
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bea175
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I would say the law of physics would be the same regardless of the case size if all the variables remained the same. If you changed powder burn rate then the pressure would change also. :thumbs:



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 Posted: Fri Jun 16th, 2006 08:40 PM
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BigBill
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I guess I got some really bad advise in the past from the only sources i had in my area.  I'm going to pull my 06 rounds apart and start over using magnum primers with the lighter loads and work my way up.  I have noticed i flatened primers a tad on my spent cases?:confused:



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 Posted: Sun Jun 25th, 2006 09:48 PM
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Hammer
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Tests run in multiple 300 Winchester Magnum rifles comparing standard versus magnum primers of various brands using both extruded and spherical powders showed a slight advantage in velocity and accuracy with the standard primers.

Have since reserved magnum primers to the largest Weatherby cases, derivates thereof, and large African rounds like the 500 Nitro Express and 585 Nyati.

Believe Elmer Keith's work showed advantage to standard primers too.

Last edited on Sun Jun 25th, 2006 09:49 PM by Hammer



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