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Slingshot
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| Joined: | 19 May 2008 |
| Location: | Elgin, Illinois USA |
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Posted: 29 June 2008 05:37 AM |
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Howdy,
Ok this is the 1st time I have ever come across this, I am pretty sure its erosion but want to get some other opinions.
I opened a can of IMR4064 that was purchased in 1995 ( I mark all my cans with month and year it was purchased) I begin to pour it in the powder hopper and I notice a "rust" colored dust that is sticking to the sides of the hopper tube. 
I have older cans of IMR4064 and other powders that have none of this. Also it’s in the old steel IMR/Dupont cans. All of them have been stored in a metal cabinet in a moisture controlled environment. And no bad smells, still smells like gun powder.
Any Ideas? 
Slingshot
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runfiverun
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| Joined: | 9 February 2008 |
| Location: | Soda Springs, Idaho USA |
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Posted: 29 June 2008 03:05 PM |
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that rust color is the early signs of break down, followed by fumes.
and you can actually see the vapors coming off the powder. and often a wet
condensation in the can of red goowey rain. this will corrode cans and seem through cases, it will turn them a blue/green color and make the case very brittle.
an observation; i have heard and seen this with mostly imr, and old military ammo the most often.
i think it may have something to do with the solvents that were used in the manufacture of the powder.
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miestro_jerry
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Posted: 29 June 2008 06:21 PM |
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This is why I seal my cans up really tight, keep them in a contained area. I have old powder that still looks great, and shoots by the book, but I keep the canisters in zip lock type bags.
Jerry
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wolfkill
Handloading Master
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Posted: 29 June 2008 11:34 PM |
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| I had a tin of IMR4198 go bad on me after about 10 years. Exact same rust color you talk about.
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ghrit
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Posted: 30 June 2008 12:30 AM |
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The Sierra reloading manual says to dispose of that powder, it is deteriorating. They specifically state that IMR propellants are subject to that very description.
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miestro_jerry
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Posted: 30 June 2008 12:36 AM |
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Wolfkill,
If you open the can and don't seal it up really tight.... you had this happen to you. But I don't have any open cans that are that old. I generally go thru them fast when opened.
But think about ammo, the powder is contained in the cartridge in an air tight fashion. Then ammo is sealed up in "tins" or GI Cans. The stuff will last almost forever in these conditions.
There is ammo that dates back to WW II that still works because it was sealed up tight. In the past I got ammo from DCM (what is now CMP) that was made before me and it worked all the time. At some gunshow I saw ammo that came from the Korean war era and it still was in a air tight tin.
So powder degrades once the can is open. If you store in a dry area, with teh lid on tight, and inside of a plastic freezer bag. It should last a good while, put in an air tight GI Ammo can and it could last forever in theory.
Jerry
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wheezengeezer
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Posted: 30 June 2008 03:55 PM |
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| nuther reason to favor double base powders.they dont deterriorate as quickly.
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Oldrockchucker
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Posted: 8 July 2008 07:17 PM |
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wheezengeezer wrote: nuther reason to favor double base powders.they dont deterriorate as quickly.
I didn't know that. Why is that so? How does one know if a powder is double based or not. I looked at the cans of my powders (all IMR and Alliant) and I don't see it stated what they are. I've only really ever seen in their older data manuals that Alliant powders are double base. I've not found either in IMR or Hodgdon manuals any statement as to whether they are double or single base.
I've got about 4 cans, to cans each, of IMR 3031 and IMR4350 that date back to at least 1995. I opened one of the 3031s last night and it smelled just fine. I also have a couple of pounds of Alliant Green Dot that date back to at least 1995 that also appear/smell good yet.
I'll be glad for any edjumacation you can send my way. Thanx.
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miestro_jerry
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Posted: 8 July 2008 08:42 PM |
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If the cans are unopened and kept at a reasonable temperature, the powder should last for decades.
Jerry
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wheezengeezer
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Posted: 9 July 2008 01:24 PM |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder
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"Nitrocellulose deteriorates with time, yielding acidic byproducts. Those byproducts catalyze the further deterioration, increasing its rate. The released heat, in case of bulk storage of the powder, or too large blocks of solid propellant, can cause self-ignition of the material. Single-base nitrocellulose propellants are most susceptible to degradation; double-base and triple-base propellants tend to deteriorate more slowly. To neutralize the decomposition products, which could otherwise cause corrosion of metals of the cartridges and gun barrels, calcium carbonate is added to some formulations."
as a general rule,ball and spherical powders,flattened ball and flake are double base.extruded is single base with at least one exception that i know of.hodgdons hybrid is extruded with the chemestry of a double base.the manufacturers msds may help you with that.i think my speer #10 manual also mentioned it as well
Last edited on 9 July 2008 01:45 PM by wheezengeezer
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72coupe
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Posted: 9 July 2008 02:01 PM |
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Calcium Carbonate!!
Thats right, your ball powder is coated with limestone.
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Oldrockchucker
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Posted: 10 July 2008 02:57 PM |
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| Is there some reference that lists each gunpowder as to whether it is single or double based?
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miestro_jerry
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Posted: 10 July 2008 03:17 PM |
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I am looking for that same list, But I found a good explaination of modern powders at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder
I found a burning rate chart:
http://www.lasc.us/BurnRatePrint.htm
I will keep looking
Jerry
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wheezengeezer
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Posted: 14 July 2008 04:30 PM |
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miestro_jerry wrote: I am looking for that same list, But I found a good explaination of modern powders at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder
I found a burning rate chart:
http://www.lasc.us/BurnRatePrint.htm
I will keep looking
Jerry
gee,i think i have seen that link on smokeless powder before. here is my favorite burn rate chart. http://www.gsgroup.co.za/burnrates.html
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miestro_jerry
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Posted: 14 July 2008 04:34 PM |
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That is a really nice chart, many thanks for posting it.
Jerry
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