| Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2006 02:35 PM |
|
1st Post |
BigBill
Master Ballistician and Handloader
| Joined: | Fri Apr 22nd, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 710 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Ok when i go browsing for a military surplus gun wether its at a gun show or gun shop the very first thing that speaks to me is the "WOOD". Some of these guns have the most awesome wood it just reaches out to us when we see it. If your not into military surplus guns you may not under stand this but once you get into them you will know what i'm talking about.
1st. The "WOOD" its all about the look and condition of the wood. I first check for cracks in the handguard, on the rear of the stock were the bolt is and check if the rear of the butt area has been spliced too. Some stocks have had arsenal repairs done with the cracks and splices. Some are plugged too. And thats ok too if its done right and still looks good and its solid. Its all about the wood and having a good solid stock matters and it adds to the condition and price of the gun too. Its going to have normal stock wear and some "History Marks"(dings/dents) and its ok. Some of these gun stocks have been rearsenaled to like new condition too. There can be sanding marks on them from the rearsenal refinish too.
2nd. The BORE I look at the bore with a small penlite. I look for pitting since most of these have used corrosive ammo there is a lot of pitted bores out there from improper cleaning. I look at the rifling too and check it from the breech to the muzzle to see if its even. It can be worn at the muzzle from cleaning rods, this is why some are counterbored to remove that last part of the rifling that is wornout. Counterboring restores the rifle barrel to being accurate again its an improvement. I don't let a counterbored barrel scare me away from buying it, if the rest of the rifling looks good with no pitting. Even some bores that are slightly pitted can still shoot great and be accurate too.
3rd. The "BOLT" I check the feel of the bolt to the receiver to see if its loose when its locked in place.(full battery) You have to make sure the bolt operates free too. Take a look at the front of the bolt and check it for wear on the lugs and bolt face. You can take the bolt apart and checkout the firing pin.
4th. The "NUMBERS" game!! Now its time to check the numbers. Most of the military gun parts are all numbered to the receiver so its "MATCHING" to the same gun. If the Bolt, Trigger Guard, Butt Plate, Barrel bands, Cleaning Rod and Rear Site numbers match thats a plus too. Some of the stocks and handguards are numbered to the guns receiver too. The numbers on the wood can be on the inside if not on the outside. If all the metal numbers match and the wood is numbered and its the same number too its an "ALL MATCHING" gun, thats about as good as it gets. With some guns having all matching numbers is rare. If the gun doesn't have all matching numbers doesn't mean its not a shooter. If the bolt doesn't match the receiver doesn't mean its not ok to shoot. The headspace must be checked wether the bolt number matches or not before you shoot it to make sure its safe to shoot. I have some guns that the bolts have no numbers so they were replaced at the time of the rearsenal with new bolts that were never numbered to the gun.
Example; About matching numbered bolts on some guns having the bolt number not match the receiver is the norm on some of them. Like the chilean '95 7mm mausers there is a rash of these with non matching bolts. The word i have about them is the guns were stored with the bolts taken out of them. Then they were assembled with any bolt in them and sold. Finding an all matching chilean mauser is rare. To me if the rest of the gun is ok i don't let the non matching bolt steer me away from it. If the bolt looks good and its tight in the receiver when its locked in place and it passes the headspace gauge then its still ok to shoot. To a collector who just collects and is looking for a perfect gun then it may matter.
HEADSPACE GAUGES There is a "GO" , "NO GO" and "FIELD" headspace gauges. The GO and NO GO are used when repairing, replacing barrels or rechambering. The "Field" gauge is the last check to be done and it must pass before taking the gun out of service to repair it. The bolt "CAN CLOSE" on the "GO" Gauge that means the chamber/bolt are mated perfect, but during a rechamber or rebarrel with the "NO GO" the bolt shouldn't close with it. On a used rifle with the no go gauge the bolt may close on it but it still maybe safe to shoot if it doesn't close on the "FIELD" gauge. If the bolt closes on the "FIELD" Gauge the gun is unsafe to shoot and should be repaired.
5th. FINISH All I can say about the finish on the metal on surplus military guns is that some are "BLUED" and some are "PARKERIZED" while some are a "PAINTED" finish.
EXAMPLE: The Brittish Enfields and the FN49's have a painted finish.
Any opinions? Did I miss anything? Want to add anything?? Feel free
Last edited on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 02:51 PM by BigBill
____________________
Live life to the fullest everday, live everyday like it was your last day on the planet.
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2006 06:35 PM |
|
2nd Post |
hoashooter
Handloading Master
| Joined: | Thu Dec 8th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 361 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Some have had the stripper bridge milled away.While not affecting performance it will take off originality points .Same for bayonet lugs
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2006 08:43 PM |
|
3rd Post |
The_Mountaineer
Board Founder
| Joined: | Fri Feb 4th, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 717 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | rifle | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
 Two thumbs up for your input Big Bill! A most excellant post.
I think you've pretty well covered it all. I don't get into military rifles as far as hunting, shooting and collecting much anymore. Still, there's a few I've researched that have piqued my interest.
One thing I've noticed by dealers is the ones cleaned of cosmaline are often higher priced than the ones still covered in it. The very few M98's I've looked over were a good example of this. I've seen some that looked like they were in better condition covered in cosmaline for less money than those with the cosmaline removed. Perhaps they're figuring in a "cleaning value"  Dunno, but I've seen it happen at the gun shows in our neck of the woods.
I look forward to hearing your comments when the Feb. Battle Rifle of the Month comes!
Last edited on Tue Jan 24th, 2006 08:47 PM by The_Mountaineer
____________________
Montani Semper Liber - Mountaineers are always free
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2006 09:16 PM |
|
4th Post |
BigBill
Master Ballistician and Handloader
| Joined: | Fri Apr 22nd, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 710 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
hoashooter wrote: Some have had the stripper bridge milled away.While not affecting performance it will take off originality points.Same for bayonet lugs
The stripper bridge or stripper clip loading slot is a "C" shaped cut notch in the top of the receiver where a 5rd or sometimes 10rd stripper clip full of ammo can reload the magazine very quickly when the bolt is open. The military bolt actions and the semi-auto's have this feature. I haven't seen any milled off yet but i'm sure there are some out there and I have also seen the bayonet lugs cut off too. I have seen the front site guards milled away too like on the FN49's. I have no clue to why they do that either. Good point that we have to be on the look out for these too.
Before i go looking for a certain gun i get pictures of it and study them and read some info on it too so i kind of know what i'm going after. But at the sametime we must make sure its not cut or butchered in any way too if your looking for an orginal collectable piece.
____________________
Live life to the fullest everday, live everyday like it was your last day on the planet.
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2006 09:35 PM |
|
5th Post |
BigBill
Master Ballistician and Handloader
| Joined: | Fri Apr 22nd, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 710 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
The_Mountaineer; Now with buying military surplus guns if your going to get a few I would suggest getting your C&RFFL if you go to ATF Online they have the form for it. It costs $30 for 3 years and you can by C&R guns from the dealers and wholesalers like Samco Global Arms, Aim Surplus, Century Arms and Southern Ohio Gun ect. You can get some great buys right now on military surplus guns much less in price than your local dealer has. Your actually buying these collectables at dealer/wholesaler prices.
Example;
Russian Mosin 91/30 Laminated stock in excellent rearsenaled condition 99.99% bluing & 99.99% wood. The list price is $329 and our prices range between $99 to $109 for the C&RFFL holders.
Swiss Schmidt Rubin K31 Lists for $299 and our prices range between $89 to $99 to $139 depending on the condition from good to very good to excellent condition.
And these will get delivered to your door by the BBT (big brown truck). Then you need to have a bound book to record your C&RFFL purchases in. You have to keep track in writting what you have bought. You can go to the dealer sites and checkout the prices just go to Samco or AIM Surplus. It takes about 30 days to get your C&RFFL and its well worth it.
____________________
Live life to the fullest everday, live everyday like it was your last day on the planet.
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 25th, 2006 01:43 AM |
|
6th Post |
Charley
Board Founder
| Joined: | Fri Sep 9th, 2005 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 3801 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | all of them |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Those "list" prices the wholesale houses put in their flyers are total BS. The only folks who will pay that are either very, very ignorant, or very, very lazy.
I guess I'm spoiled by the number of good dealers we have around S Texas. i did see a Mosin in a pawnshop in Hondo with the reworked Russin M44s that were imported some years back. Had it priced, and asked for $300, when Century was wholesaling them at the time for $59. I laughed at the guy and walked out. Do your homework before buying milsurps. There are some who will try to screw you, but knowledge is your best weapon.
Another example is a gunshop I hit in Bryan/College Station... Champions, or some such. I asked to look at a Mosin M91/30. The salesman behind the counter started telling me how rare they were! I was ready to buy, but I handed it back and told him I changed my mind... if he was going to bullshit me and try to tell me a rifle that was produced in the friggin MILLIONS was rare, he and his shop weren't getting any of my money.
____________________
TANSTAAFL
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 25th, 2006 03:32 AM |
|
7th Post |
BigBill
Master Ballistician and Handloader
| Joined: | Fri Apr 22nd, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 710 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I haven't seen any cheap surplus guns in my local gun shop for a longtime. I can beat any gun shops price with my C&RFFL with surplus guns buying from the dealers/wholesalers on the net. My local gun range the gun shop is selling garbage for $200 each too. Most stuff is $150 and up here and as high as $300 on some mausers. I just passed the other day on a polish mauser for $499 they have to be kidding me. Like PT Barmun said there's a sucker born every minute and thats why were here to educate everyone what to look for and how to get the best buys out there. The more your armed with knowledge the better you are at knowing whats a good buy is or its not. Lets face it gun shops are out to make money not friends. You just have to know whats a fair price and whats rare? Is it worth it or not?
I can buy a russian 91/30 mosin right now in excellent condition and its arsenal redone for $69.95 and the Laminated stocks are $99. There's no way i can find that price in a gun shop here. And at gun shows forget that too the gun shops are cheaper. Everytime there is a gun show nearby the gun shops do more business.
____________________
Live life to the fullest everday, live everyday like it was your last day on the planet.
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 25th, 2006 11:41 AM |
|
8th Post |
BigBill
Master Ballistician and Handloader
| Joined: | Fri Apr 22nd, 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 710 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
On the other hand I have made a few good finds at my local gun shops too so don't write them completely off. You can hit the pawn shops too sometimes in a corner and under a lot of dust can be the find of your life with an old price on it too. I have one gun shop that hates surplus guns and he wants no part of them and when he buys a gun collection that has them he just dumps them cheap. I don't camp out there but if your there at the right time you can get some good finds too. You have a few options on how to get your military surplus treasures sometimes the search is more fun than the find. Remember its the condition of it vs. the price too. We just have to shop around and get the most bang for our buck and thats the bottomline.
"HAGGLE" The price too when your in a gun shop or local pawn shop the price thats on it isn't a given its not in cement. Haggling is easy start low and work up to what you want to pay so you make them think you paid their price but you actually paid what you wanted to pay and its under the asking price. What you pay is up to you on used traded in and hocked guns.
EXAMPLE: "How to properly HAGGLE" Its a game and its fun if you play it right and score. I was in a pawn shop and seen a perfect sino soviet chinese sks. To explain what a sino sks is its one of the very first chinese sks's thats assembled with russian sks parts. Its actually a quality russian sks with chinese markings. When the russians went to china to teach them how to build the sks's they brought parts to teach them how to assemble them while they were setting up the manufacturing of parts at the sametime. These are found by the serial number there will be a letter like "P" followed by a 4 digit number so it will look like "P1234". I think the letters run from "A" to "R" on these. We'll explain later what to actually look for on these besides the serial number. I was just browsing and not in a rush to buy it.
DAY1 "THE FIND" I'm in the shop and i looked at it and held it I noticed it was a sino soviet sks and it was marked $225 so i put it back right away and started looking at other stuff there i showed no exceitment body english about it at all thats the key don't jump out of your skin when you see a great find!!!! RELAX stay calm. I even looked the gun over more while looking at the others. I pawed some others and asked what will he take for that sks? He said right away $225 so he wasn't moving so i told him it isn't worth more than $125 and left. He made no counter offer and was completely negative about it.(grumpy) Business was probably good that day.
DAY2 "THE SETUP" I return a few days later and go thru the same routine staying away from the sks that was still there, but before i left i made an offer of $140 for it and of course it was refused but he did think for a while so my point was made and i got his attention that i want to buy it now. He's setup now for my final offer.
DAY3 "THE PURCHASE" I go back a few days later and while looking thru the other guns I can see the place is empty and business is slow so here's my chance. I look at it again and I take out my money and show him $150 and he hesitates then takes it. I walk out with my treasure at $75 less than the asking price.
You can do it at the sametime too but i was in no rush to get it plus he was negative the first day so i took my time and it paid off. You can do this with cars too don't rush into the buy, take your time, look undeceided, don't say i'll take it too soon, make them wait and they may offer you more or take more $$ off the car. Remember its a game so play the game and enjoy it your wallet will too just don't rush in with your hard earned cash. Haggling is a lost art and very few know about or how to do it i learned from watching a couple of old horse trader friends of mine and the deals they get crack me up. You can pair up and do it too at flea markets. Have the first guy make an offer and if it gets refused have the second guy offer just $5 more and he will get it trust me it works. The second guy stays hidden of course you send him over later right after your offer.
Last edited on Wed Jan 25th, 2006 11:53 AM by BigBill
____________________
Live life to the fullest everday, live everyday like it was your last day on the planet.
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 6th, 2006 01:04 AM |
|
9th Post |
NOFX
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Sun Feb 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 31 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Hey BigBill,
Awesome post man! Thanks for the haggling tips, I'm off to the gunshop....
Russ.
|
|
