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bea175
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Posted: 19 December 2007 03:15 PM |
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The primary weapon carried by most soldiers into battle in Iraq and Afghanistan performed the worst in a recent series of tests designed to see how it stacked up against three other top carbines in sandy environments.
After firing 6,000 rounds through ten M4s in a dust chamber at the Army's Aberdeen test center in Maryland this fall, the weapons experienced a total of 863 minor stoppages and 19 that would have required the armorer to fix the problem. Stacked up against the M4 during the side-by-side tests were two other weapons popular with special operations forces, including the Heckler and Koch 416 and the FN USA Special Operations Combat Assault Rifle, or Mk16.
Another carbine involved in the tests that had been rejected by the Army two years ago, the H&K XM8, came out the winner, with a total of 116 minor stoppages and 11 major ones. The Mk16 experienced a total of 226 stoppages, the 416 had 233.
The Army was quick to point out that even with 863 minor stoppages -- termed "class one" stoppages which require 10 seconds or less to clear and "class two" stoppages which require more than ten seconds to clear -- the M4 functioned well, with over 98 percent of the 60,000 total rounds firing without a problem.
"The M4 carbine is a world-class weapon," said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, the Army's top equipment buyer, in a Dec. 17 briefing at the Pentagon. Soldiers "have high confidence in that weapon, and that high confidence level is justified, in our view, as a result of all test data and all investigations we have made."
Though Army testers and engineers are still evaluating the data, officials with the Army's Infantry Center based in Fort Benning, Ga., said they planned to issue new requirements for the standard-issue carbine in about 18 months that could include a wholesale replacement of the M4. But the Army has been resistant to replace the M4, which has been in the Army inventory for over 18 years, until there's enough of a performance leap to justify buying a new carbine.
"We know there are some pretty exciting things on the horizon with technology ... so maybe what we do is stick with the M4 for now and let technologies mature enough that we can spin them into a new carbine," said Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat development at the Army's Infantry Center. "It's just not ready yet. But it can be ready relatively rapidly."
That's not good enough for some on Capitol Hill who've pushed hard for the so-called "extreme dust test" since last spring. Oklahoma Republican Senator Tom Coburn placed a hold on the nomination of Army Secretary Pete Geren earlier this year to force the Army to take another look at the M4 and its reliability.
In an April 12 letter to the still unconfirmed Geren, Coburn wrote that "considering the long standing reliability and lethality problems with the M16 design, of which the M4 is based, I am afraid that our troops in combat might not have the best weapon." He insisted the Army conduct a side-by-side test to verify his contention that more reliable designs existed and could be fielded soon.
Despite the 98 percent reliability argument now being pushed by the Army, one congressional staffer familiar with the extreme dust tests is skeptical of the service's conclusions.
"This isn't brain surgery -- a rifle needs to do three things: shoot when you pull the trigger, put bullets where you aim them and deliver enough energy to stop what's attacking you," the staffer told Military.com in an email. "If the M4 can't be depended on to shoot then everything else is irrelevant."
The staffer offered a different perspective of how to view the Army's result. If you look at the numbers, he reasoned, the M4's 882 total stoppages averages out to a jam every 68 rounds. There are about 30 rounds per magazine in the M4.
By comparison, the XM8 jammed once every 472 rounds, the Mk16 every 265 rounds and the 416 every 257 rounds. Army officials contend soldiers rarely fire more than 140 rounds in an engagement.
"These results are stunning, and frankly they are significantly more dramatic than most weapons experts expected," the staffer said.
Army officials say the staffer's comparison is "misleading" since the extreme dust test did not represent a typical combat environment and did not include the regular weapons cleaning soldiers typically perform in the field.
So the Army is sticking by the M4 and has recently signed another contract with manufacturer Colt Defense to outfit several more brigade combat teams with the compact weapon. Service officials say feedback from the field on the M4 has been universally positive -- except for some grumbling about the stopping power of its 5.56mm round. And as long as soldiers take the time to clean their weapons properly, even the "extreme" dust testing showed the weapon performed as advertised.
"The force will tell you the weapon system is reliable, they're confident in it, they understand that the key to making that weapon system effective on the battlefield and killing the enemy is a solid maintenance program and, just as important, is a marksmanship program," said Sgt. Maj. Tom Coleman, sergeant major for PEO Soldier and the Natick Soldier Systems Center. "So, you can't start talking about a weapon system without bringing in all the other pieces that come into play."
That's not enough for some who say the technology is out there to field a better, more reliable rifle to troops in contact now.
"It's time to stop making excuses and just conduct a competition for a new weapon," the congressional staffer said.
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sako06
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Posted: 28 March 2008 04:21 AM |
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| Isn't the dirt problem exacerbated from the CLP lube the Army uses.Most branches have switched to Militec 1 according to a friend as it doesn't attract dirt like a magnate.I use militec1 for my SigSauer,Colt 1991A1,M1 Garand & other weapons. Last edited on 28 March 2008 04:24 AM by sako06
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sniper-66
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Posted: 29 March 2008 02:33 AM |
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The last time they did this dust test on the M-16, it fared poorly until someone pointed out that they were leaving the dust cover open. When they closed it, it was one of the best weapons in the dust test. Two of the abolute worst weapons during that test was the M-14 and the FN-FAL. I am thinking that once again they left the dust cover open.
In eleven months of carrying mine, never had a problem if the dust cover was kept closed and basic maintenance was done. Even when dust caked, mine functioned flawlessly. Any chance anyone has the actual test results?
Last edited on 29 March 2008 02:33 AM by sniper-66
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72coupe
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Posted: 29 March 2008 04:05 AM |
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I don't know about the dust test but a friend of mine went to a highpower match at Raton, New Mexico. Just after the match started a very high wind kicked up with heavy blowing sand.
After a short time the only rifles on the line that were still operating were AR15s and AR type rifles. This included M1As and bolt actions. The ARs worked all the way through the match although scores were apparently low.
My experience with the M16 in Veitnam was flawless.
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sako06
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Posted: 29 March 2008 04:30 AM |
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| The Militec1 company site http://www.militec1.com has interesting info regarding use of their product and the problems with clp.
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Mark V
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Posted: 29 March 2008 07:59 AM |
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The AR15/M16/CAR15/M4 is without a doubt a fine weapon system that our country can be proud of. But, it was a Cold War era weapon system that is outdated and not the right weapon system to support our heroes in the current theatres they are deployed to. If anyone wants, I would be happy to explain. 
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sniper-66
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Posted: 29 March 2008 12:03 PM |
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| Go for it.
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72coupe
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Posted: 29 March 2008 12:25 PM |
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| As much as I love the M16 and ARs, I agree with Mark V. It is time for something newer, lighter and more reliable.
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3006 user
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Posted: 29 March 2008 03:16 PM |
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sako06 wrote: Isn't the dirt problem exacerbated from the CLP lube the Army uses.Most branches have switched to Militec 1 according to a friend as it doesn't attract dirt like a magnate.I use militec1 for my SigSauer,Colt 1991A1,M1 Garand & other weapons.
Have any of you Vietnam vets heard of, or remember using a lube product called Dri-Slide?? Long years ago a Men's magazine called "True" ran an article titled " The strange case of some stuff called Dri-Slide". The article claimed that the product reduced or eliminated stoppages. I believe that it is Molybdenum in a volatile liquid base. The article further stated that the Army prohibited it's use in the field, for an unknown (to the magazine) reason. I've been using the product for a lot of years on several different kinds of firearms, especially in cold weather hunting conditions. It was reported that the GIs that used it, swore by it. Apply and let dry--creates a Moly film that's not oily or tacky. If you are curious, Google--Dri-Slide, it's still being made.
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3006 user
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Posted: 29 March 2008 09:30 PM |
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| Update on Dri Slide: seems like the manufacturer doesn't sell retail so here's a location that does: ironbraid.com Last edited on 29 March 2008 09:33 PM by 3006 user
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sdb777
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Posted: 30 March 2008 12:37 PM |
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It's difficult to stop a "well maintained" AR platform.
As far as a light weight better performing weapon system....I vote for a plasma system! Maybe something that creates a blackhole would be pretty cool, just don't know what us handloaders could possibly do with it?
Scott (keep the door closed) B
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sako06
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Posted: 1 April 2008 05:54 AM |
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| I'd prefer the new 338 scoped compensated sniper rifle ($6.50 cartridges made in Switzerland)described to us at the SHOT show by 2 engineers who were involved in the testing that will hit to point of aim at 600 meters.
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sako06
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Posted: 1 April 2008 06:01 AM |
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| Go to http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1247 For new improved Dri-Slide for weapons $9.95 / bottle, the company is in Gilbert,AZ . Last edited on 1 April 2008 06:04 AM by sako06
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sako06
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Posted: 1 April 2008 07:31 PM |
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| Dri-Slide is made by Valspar Paints & they turned it over to an employee about 10yrs ago.I ordered 2 4oz bottles of Dri-Slide from http://www.uniquetek.com in gilbert,az the company owner said shake the heck out of the bottle to mix the moly there is a ball in each bottle & if you set it down shake it again .He has modified parts for dillon presses,etc.
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Darkmeat
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Posted: 22 April 2008 04:41 PM |
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sniper-66 wrote: The last time they did this dust test on the M-16, it fared poorly until someone pointed out that they were leaving the dust cover open. When they closed it, it was one of the best weapons in the dust test. Two of the abolute worst weapons during that test was the M-14 and the FN-FAL. I am thinking that once again they left the dust cover open.
In eleven months of carrying mine, never had a problem if the dust cover was kept closed and basic maintenance was done. Even when dust caked, mine functioned flawlessly. Any chance anyone has the actual test results?
I read over these results a while back. It struck me as H&K slanting the test in favor of the melty fishgun(XM-8).
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