| Posted: Tue Oct 13th, 2009 11:46 AM |
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woodsman777
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From the Firearm Blog
The truth behind the recent M4 controversy
Yesterday I blogged about the M4 reliability controversy story that was originally reported by the Associated Press. At best the writer of the AP article exaggerated many the points. The leaked draft of the of the analysis of the Battle of Wanat reads quite differently.
The M4 Carbine
The AP infers that the barrels of many of the weapons were getting white hot. From the AP article:
The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot.
There is only one reference to a gun getting white hot in the draft report, and it is a SAW not a M4 Carbine:
Specialist Bogar fired approximately six hundred rounds at a cyclic rate of fire from his SAW when that weapon became overheated, and eventually jammed the bolt forward. Specialist Stafford noted, “Bogar was still in our hole firing quite a bit. Then Bogar’s SAW jammed. Basically it just got way overheated, because he opened the feed tray cover and I remember him trying to get it open and it just looked like the bolt had welded itself inside the chamber. His barrel was just white hot.”
In fact, it is not even possible that an M4 barrel can heat up to the point of being white hot. M4 barrels are made from Alloy Steel 4150. The melting point of this steel is 1426 degrees Celsius. For steel to go white, it needs to be over 1400 degrees Celsius.
The Ground Precautionary Message ACALA #97-031, from November 2006, clearly states that if an M4 barrel reaches just 737 degrees Celcius, the barrel will be weaked to the point where burst.
(3) BURST BARRELS RESULT WHEN THE WEAPONS ARE FIRED UNDER VERY EXTREME FIRING SCHEDULES AND THE BARREL TEMPERATURE EXCEEDS 1360 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT. WHEN THE BARREL REACHES THESE EXTREME TEMPERATURES, THE BARREL STEEL WEAKENS TO THE POINT THAT THE HIGH PRESSURE GASES BURST THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE BARREL APPROXIMATELY 4 INCHES IN FRONT OF THE CHAMBER. THIS CONDITION CAN RESULT IN SERIOUS INJURY.
You are not going to see an M4 barrel white hot because by that point it would have exploded!
The AP also infers that the M4 Carbine is designed to handle a high rate of fire
The high rate of fire appears to have put a number of weapons out of commission, even though the guns are tested and built to operate in extreme conditions.
This is also not true. From the Ground Precautionary Message[^1]:
(B) FIRING 140 ROUNDS, RAPIDLY AND CONTINUOUSLY, WILL RAISE THE TEMPERATURE OF THE BARREL TO THE COOK-OFF POINT. AT THIS TEMPERATURE, ANY LIVE ROUND REMAINING IN THE CHAMBER FOR ANY REASON MAY COOK-OFF (DETONATE) IN AS SHORT A PERIOD AS 10 SECONDS.
...
(D) SUSTAINED RATE OF FIRE FOR THE M16 SERIES RIFLES AND M4 SERIES CARBINES IS 12-15 ROUNDS PER MINUTE. THIS IS THE ACTUAL RATE OF FIRE THAT A WEAPON CAN CONTINUE TO BE FIRED FOR AN Indefinite LENGTH OF TIME WITHOUT SERIOUS OVERHEATING.
No operator should empty more than 4 magazines rapidly. The AP quotes the draft report:
My weapon was overheating. I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn’t charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down.”
I sympathize with the solider and would not dare to presume to question his actions in combat. He did what he had to do in the heat of the moment, but I cannot think of any current weapon in the M4 class that can sustain continuous fire. To make such a weapon it would need to have a heavy quick change barrel and maybe also include a heat sink. I doubt any soldiers will want to trade in their M4 for a heavy automatic rifle.
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WOODSMAN777
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 04:52 PM |
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racefan3119
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Been out of the loop for a while. My personal experience with this rifle on two occasions that we were really putting lead down range, has been that before the weapon jams up due to heat buildup the top round in the magazine will cook off and blow the bottom out of the mag during reloading. I also found that if you dump a canteen on it your back in business. I wouldnt trade this weapon for anything.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29th, 2009 08:54 PM |
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miestro_jerry
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I come from a different time, the main rifle was the M16/M16A1, the M14 and the M60 Machine gun.
From being a young private to when I was returned to the civilian world, I knew if I used sustained fire with M16 and the M60, the barrels would distort from the heat generated with the sustained fire. I saw an M60, just before they were going to changed the barrel, that the weapon was pointed parallel to the ground, but the M60 shot in to the ground about 30 feet away. That squad had keep feeding the M60 belt after belt in a serious fire fight.
We did put many magazines thru the M16s during spray and pray incidents, but I never saw the barrel turn any colors, and when the barrel was too hot, a canteen of water or other liquids would cool the barrel down.
The M4 seems to a useful weapons system, but with all weapons systems there are boards, committees and tiger teams that find fault with everything, including things that actually do work.
I wish these "Nye sayers" would be in the heat of battle with these weapons and realize the actual problems.
Jerry
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| Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:56 PM |
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BigBill
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I think it was a lack of judgement on the leaders part by not having enough personel on the ground at that point. Its been done a few times now they keep on making the same mistake. Its not the rifles fault if you don't have the correct numbers there. 
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| Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 05:44 PM |
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Bigdog57
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Exactly! While I do feel we have the best troops out there, still there is little one can do when faced with overwhelming numbers of hostiles! We have been making our troops face long odds with short numbers for far too long. It became SOP for the Special Forces guys, when faced with a sudden contact - they would all dump a magazine in a "mad minute" to keep the bad guys heads down then beat feet.
Since having the SF badge has become sought after by any officer trying to make rank, they carry these necessary tactics to the main battlefield, where it just doesn't work as well. The troops under siege can't haul butt out of there - they have to sit and fight. Our weapons are good, but they can be put out of action by extreme conditions. I dont fault the troops or the weapons - the top brass NEEDS to field more bodies with more guns. In this day & age, it's hard to get Congress to allow that. It costs money that the Public doesn't see being 'useful', not like funding some pork project that makes a few dozen jobs in a Congressman's district. So, the troopers suffer. That has been their lot since the Ancient Days. Nothing changes except the weapons in use.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16th, 2009 03:26 PM |
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BigBill
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I guess overall we learned nothing from General Custer and hos last stand. History does repeat itself if we make no adjustments to change our tactics. My thoughts and prayers go out for the soldiers and there families. I hate to read about lives wasted by mistakes by our leaders they keep on pinning it on the gun when its the human judgement mistakes. This is my gut feeling on what went wrong.
I think we need a new rifle were the barrels can be replaced too and we need to open up the tolarences so they can't weld shut plus they need more air cooling too. Over use is not the guns fault but we need to make it last longer and take more abuse too, beyond the design were using today. We upgraded our armour and our trucks yet we never touched the design of the guns in use yet. Ladies/Gentlemen our service men and women deserve the best weapons that we can give them.
If our leaders over there think they need more troops then we need to not second guess them or waste time in sending more troops over there. While others here discuss it there not sitting in the front lines and they have no clue ass to whats going on there. We need to give our Generals what they need to win this war and get it over asap. Its time to stop playing cat and mouse bring on the B52's.
Last edited on Mon Nov 16th, 2009 03:35 PM by BigBill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11th, 2010 06:11 PM |
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rickt300
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I feel the M4 is a great battle rifle, it should be set up with the 3 round burst system rather than be full auto. That the guns took the incredible rates of fire they were subjected to is a credit to the design. What is needed is a better bulleted round designed more for incapacitation than armor penetration. They could bring back the M193 round and get a cheaper , quicker killing round.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15th, 2010 04:26 PM |
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BigBill
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I keep on hearing about changing the uppers to the 6.8mm round?
My idea would be to shorten up the already successful 6,5mm swedish mauser round and try that. But thats just me.
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