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TasunkaWitko
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| Joined: | 4 February 2005 |
| Location: | Chinook, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 847 |
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Posted: 8 December 2007 06:30 PM |
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warning! i might piss some folks off with this, but it is not my intention! mark v - i am especially talking to you and hope that you do not take offense. this post is an attempt to learn and also to educate the members of the HB who are not living/hunting in similar circumstances.
could someone please explain the whole deal with the high fences, deer ranches, feeders, supplements, artificial insemination, 15,000 hunts, super freaky antlers etc. to me? i want to make clear that i mean no offense, but a lot of it seems like a person might as well pay big bucks to buy the number of an ear tag and go shoot the corresponding steer.
i swear this is not a slam bcause i have a lot of good friends on the net who are from texas. i simply don't get why and how things are done that way down there and would like to get the texas point of view rather than simply listening to the criticisms.
i am sure a lot of it has to do with land access. up here, there are millions of acres (literally) that cost a hunter nothing to hunt on, and all of it has good potential for trophy animals. this keeps the hunting pressure quite light. there are also a lot of leases, etc. but they seem to be the exception rather than the norm (at least in my area of montana).
also re: the high fences. could this be explained? in montana (in all states, i thought) the game animals belong to the people, not to private land owners. it seems that high fences designed to keep game in the borders of a property would not be fair chase or even legal, no matter whether the place is 50 acres, 5000 acres or 10,000 acres.
i also want to make clear that this is NOT only in texas, but it seems that texas has the biggest reputation for it (with maybe pennsylvania running a close second?)
anyway, i'd rather hear from folks who know and understand the realities of how it is done, rather than the wild stories and rumors from folks who don't know.
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72coupe
Handloading Master
| Joined: | 11 June 2006 |
| Location: | Iowa Park, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1493 |
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Posted: 8 December 2007 07:49 PM |
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Part of the reason for the private game reserves in Texas is because virtually all land in the state is privately owned.
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Dirtkicker
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 3 September 2007 |
| Location: | High Plains |
| Posts: | 337 |
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Posted: 8 December 2007 08:22 PM |
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I'm betting on a couple of prime factors here. They apply to PA as well.
1. A dearth of public land.
2. A public with an interest in hunting and the money to indulge that interest.
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Dirtkicker
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 3 September 2007 |
| Location: | High Plains |
| Posts: | 337 |
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Posted: 8 December 2007 10:21 PM |
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PS... Why NOT pick on Texas? They pick on everybody else.
Also, I want to modify my post above, with regard to "dearth of public land." This doesn't really apply all that well to PA. PA has a lot of public hunting grounds, although quite a few of them are smaller plots of from 1000-3000 acres. Still, it is a wonderful system and the envy of most other states. I think the factor that primarily influences PA "game ranches" is the availablility of reasonably priced rural non-ag land AND the proximity to major metropolitan areas from which to draw affluent short-time "hunters." (If by using quotation marks around the word hunters I have tipped my hand, then so be it.)Last edited on 8 December 2007 10:27 PM by Dirtkicker
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TasunkaWitko
Board Founder
| Joined: | 4 February 2005 |
| Location: | Chinook, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 847 |
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Posted: 8 December 2007 10:45 PM |
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dirtkicker -
i'll agree that it's a lot different than the way we do things up here, but when there is so many folks who want to hunt and so little public land, i imagine that things are going to evolve differently.
in montana, we have the block management program, where landowners give de facto persmission for hunters to hunt their land in return for various incentives from the state. it is a program that has worked well for hunters, landowners and for the state, and i consider it quite a success.
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klallen
Administrator
| Joined: | 10 February 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 662 |
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Posted: 9 December 2007 05:36 AM |
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My bro went to Texas on a hunting trip. He said it was interesting where one game ranch ended another began. I've never been but certainly wouldn't mind being in such close proximity to all the opportunities.
Had an interesting conversation on another site about high fence hunting after i posted my story about our elk hunt last August down in Nebraska. The hunting purists are dead set against such hunting and don't mince words in telling ya what they think of it (and you for hunting such a way). That's ok.
For me personally, it's a means to achieve a goal. Exotic rams; there is no other choice. 400 class elk; i live in prime elk hunting country and even so, i could hunt my entire life and never get a chance at a bonified 400+" bull. Enter high fence hunting. I don't confuse this hunting with 100% fair chase hunt but have found that things can be quite challenging if the ranch owner has taken the time to create as real a fair-chase hunting environment as possible.
I'm fairly open to stuff but there are some things I'm just not interested in. Paying extreme $$$ for Whitetail and Mule Deer hunting for one. I have been on several sites where a 150 class buck will set ya back $4K - $7K. Without question, my lack of interest in such hunts is clearly based on being 45 minutes from home to 150+ class free ranging Whitetail and Mule Deer bucks of our own and for the price of an over the counter "A" tag. I get that and know some aren't so fortunate. Another; setting on top of an automated feeder waiting for the animals to come in for dinner ... not my bag of tea. Understand, I don't care if someone else does it. It just isn't for me. When my bro went to Texas bow hunting, they went to a place where they were placed in a blind and could shoot only what came close enough in front of you while you were there. I think he came home with a small ram just to say he shot something. I wouldn't dig that either. Spot and stalk is more my thing.
Looking forward to hearing the Texas perspective. korey
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72coupe
Handloading Master
| Joined: | 11 June 2006 |
| Location: | Iowa Park, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1493 |
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Posted: 9 December 2007 01:18 PM |
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| The big thing in Texas is hunting leases. You find a land owner with good hunting on his land and lease a certain amount of acreage for $XXX.xx. There is plenty of fair chase hunting in Texas but it is hard to find a good lease and it cost plenty.
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Mark V
Administrator
| Joined: | 12 February 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 243 |
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Posted: 10 December 2007 04:37 AM |
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Tas -no worries bro. This is always a hot topic of debate and probably more so in Texas than you would think.
My point of view on this is pretty complex. When I have adequate time to get my thoughts down I will. Right now, just too darn tired. Hard two trophy hunters and four management hunters this weekend and I am beat. 
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Charley
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| Joined: | 9 September 2005 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2225 |
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Posted: 10 December 2007 01:41 PM |
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IMO, high fences can be an asset, ior can be the stupidest crap imaginable. I've got folks around me that have high fenced 25 acres! Can't for the life of me see a reason for that.
On a managed ranch, running into a few thousand acres and up, I can see a purpose.
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bea175
Board Founder
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Posted: 10 December 2007 03:40 PM |
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| I personally believe it comes down to money and profit. The land owners knows people these days have more money than time . When there is a demand there will always be a market. If a man can make more money in a few weeks of selling access to his land and deer than in farming or ranching in a year , then what do you think he is going to do? High fence hunting is here to stay as long as people will pay big bucks to hunt big bucks regardless if it is fair chase or not. I wouldn't pay several thousand dollars to shoot one deer no matter what the size but a lot will just for the bragging rights. If you can afford it then go for it. Maybe one day i will change my mind, but now i will settle for my little 5 to 10 pointers and doe or two on doe days.
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Timberghozt
Board Founder
| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Plaza De Los Armas, Mexico |
| Posts: | 5339 |
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Posted: 10 December 2007 03:47 PM |
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I still hunt on a place that is low fenced and fair chase in central Texas.Everything around it for 10 miles is low fenced and there are some monsters killed right by me all season.I think you guys are watching too many hunting shows.Not all of Texas is high fenced gents.Its a big state.You see a lot of folks talk about high fenced ranches but they don`t realize that a lot of the hunting land here is not high fenced.That shit is expensive to do and the average rancher isn`t going to invest in it.Sure there are probably more high fenced managed ranches here than elsewhere but if you get down to acreage that is hunted,you`ll see that low fences fat outweigh the managed high fenced places.
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72coupe
Handloading Master
| Joined: | 11 June 2006 |
| Location: | Iowa Park, Texas USA |
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Posted: 10 December 2007 04:01 PM |
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| I agree with TG. There is only 1 high fence within 50 miles of here. On the other hand people out of Dallas are buying land adjacent to Red River for 4 to 5 times its actual value for hunting.
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Mark V
Administrator
| Joined: | 12 February 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 243 |
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Posted: 10 December 2007 04:34 PM |
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I'll tell you one thing, just because a property is high fenced it sure doesn't guarantee any paying client is going to get a kill on a big deer.
We hunted for three days this weekend. One of my clients wanted a trophy whitetail whitetail first and an exotic second. The only mature buck we glassed all weekend was a nine point management buck that was old as dirt. We were also looking for a trophy blackbuck and didn't see one until Sunday morning, which he took and was happy. Mature bucks just weren't moving.
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Timberghozt
Board Founder
| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Plaza De Los Armas, Mexico |
| Posts: | 5339 |
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Posted: 11 December 2007 12:41 AM |
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MarkV is right on that.It took me a while last year to find the buck I was after.Its not as easy as folks make it sound.3000 acres high fenced or not is still hard to find what you are after.But,I still must maintain and I see it a lot on these forums.Folks think Texas is mile after mile of these high fenced enclosures and it simply isn`t true.
Tash in all honesty,you need to come and hunt here bro before you make any judgements on the issue.I hunt and help MarkV out at his place with hunters..but I hunt near my house too.I love both places,just happens,all my best friends hang out at MarkV`s place so I spend a lot of time there either helping guide hunters or actually hunting for myself.I will say it is not as easy as it sounds there.I show you guys pics but the trophies I have taken there,damned sure made me work for em.That big hog was hunted over a series of trips to the ranch in about a month and a half span.He just didn`t run out to my blind and say shoot me dickhead..I moved around a lot looking for him and finally got him way back on the ranch in a open air tripod in a prickly pear patch as he moved to feed one evenin...I was super happy as a hog that size doesn`t come easy,especially on a place where they are hunted hard as nuisance critters..
point is,don`t assume till you actually see first hand..Texas has lots to offer,be it private property,a lease,a high fenced ranch or even public land(i wont hunt there,too many idiots for me)...but you can hunt here and its good whitetail,turkey,muledeer, and especially nasty hog hunting..
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TasunkaWitko
Board Founder
| Joined: | 4 February 2005 |
| Location: | Chinook, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 847 |
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Posted: 11 December 2007 03:28 AM |
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>>>Tash in all honesty,you need to come and hunt here bro before you make any judgements on the issue.<<<
i'd like to do that someday! i've heard that the texas brush country is a real challenge when it comes to hunting, and if a guy goes into that he'd better pack a lunch! not sure if it is the same right in your area, but one thing is for sure - it's a lot more open country up here, which can be both good and bad. either way, it makes for a whole different type of hunting.
hunting up here is quite a bit different but at the same time i would bet that in a lot of ways it is just the same. from what i understand, only something like 1% of land in texas is high fenced, but it seems to get a disproportionate amount of attention due to the negative publicity. the biggest "problem" seems to be a lack of available public land, and that is one thing i am thankful for in montana, even though we usually also have a lot of private land to hunt, too.
i think that the other controversial part is that it just seems (and please correct me if i am wrong) that the deer, which are property of the people, are being treated like livestock. once again, this could be taken out of context and blown out of proportion, but to hear some people talk it's almost as if the deer in texas are branded each spring along with the cattle. i imagine that this, like the high fencing, is a very small minority and not the norm.
i figured the best place to get the TRUE story would be from a couple of texans that i happen to know, and i must say it's been a good conversation so far with a few myths shot down, and i am glad to see that!
the thing that is most important to me, as a family man and a hunter, is that the tradition of hunting is available to anyone who wants to do it. the great thing about the internet is being able to talk with folks everywhere and learn how its done so that folks can share ideas and traditions!
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The_Mountaineer
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| Joined: | 4 February 2005 |
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Posted: 11 December 2007 08:25 PM |
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TasunkaWitko wrote: could someone please explain the whole deal with the high fences, deer ranches, feeders, supplements, artificial insemination, 15,000 hunts, super freaky antlers etc. to me?
That's a lot of ground to cover in one post!
You already know my take from my posts over at the baitshop. The science is the same with or without a fence, there'll always be a debate upon the ethics and values though.
To me, high fences are acceptable in certain circumstances. First, when it serves more as a control to keep neighbors' piss poor wildlife management practices out and sound practices in. Nope, I'm not talking QDM or TDM only, I'm talking everything from cattle grazing, dog trials, trespassing, poaching, ingress & egress issues and many others that have little or nothing to do with hunting directly. Second, when it serves to control wildlife bought and sold as property (i.e., exotics) which have no legal protection if they wander onto the neighbor's property. The exotic hunting operator who doesn't have a fence may as be throwing his money away.
The "whole deal" is that there is a market out there for wildlife trophies and people are willing to pay handsomely for it. Be that as it may, not all high fences are built with marketable hunting opportunities in mind (see above). Those that are run a spectrum, just like any segment of business, from the prestigious and credible to the unscrupulous and illegal.
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