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CB900F
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| Joined: | 5 February 2005 |
| Location: | Lesser Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 268 |
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Posted: 28 April 2007 07:59 PM |
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Fella's;
I recently went in the local Scheel's store, and while there a little Buck folding knife caught my eye. Since I lose knives like my daughter makes money disappear, I got it. T'wasn't much, just under $13.00.
Before I bought it though, I checked the country of origin & it said CN. "OK" I says to myself, that's gotta be Canada 'cause I always see China spelled out, all five letters. Got it home & opened up the damn near indestructable plastic package. Flipped it open & there was, all spelled out, CHINA, on the blade.
I think Buck knives is attempting to do just what they did with me, bolster sales by deceptive practice.
900F
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Mortis
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 3 March 2007 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 352 |
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Posted: 28 April 2007 08:31 PM |
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900F
Don't know what too tell ya pard, but the only Buck knife in my collection was found in a parking lot.
In 1975, I had the opportunity to see the quote documents that Buck submitted in order to attempt to get the K-Bar contract for the military. Looked good until you noticed the steel suppliers name on their sub-vendor list. The showed Camillus, the oldest knife maker in the US, as their material supplier. And Camillus had the current contract at the time, and had it renewed at the end of the contract period.
I guess I'm biased, but any brand named knife costing less then $25.00, had better be one of the skeleton type knives and only good for cleaning your fingernails.
I guess "Let The Buyer Beware" still applies.
____________________
"I Became Insane with Long Intervals of Horrible Sanity" E.A. Poe
"Arguing with a Marine is like wrestling with a Pig. Everyone gets dirty, but the Pig loves it."
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CB900F
Administrator
| Joined: | 5 February 2005 |
| Location: | Lesser Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 268 |
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Posted: 28 April 2007 10:20 PM |
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Mortis;
Like I said, I lose pocket knives frequently, often, & with disgusting regularity. Buying a more expensive knife just means losing more money. That being said, I'd still like to buy American, or North American anyway. I don't much care if the knife isn't the best, it's gonna be gone in a coupla months regardless.
900F
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Mortis
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 3 March 2007 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 352 |
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Posted: 28 April 2007 10:53 PM |
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900F....
I understand where you are coming from, but as bad as this might sound, you have it wrong.
The minute you bought that knife you supported a local business. Any money that went overseas for the production of that knife left the country months before you walked into the store to buy it.
In effect all you did was replace the money spent by the seller that went to Gerber in the first place plus a profit. And the seller only replaced the money spent by Gerber, plus a profit. So all in all, maybe only 50% of the money you spent totaled the money spent overseas in the original purchase.
Maybe that approach is a cop out, but being in the manufacturing business it is the only answer I can provide. Certainly support your local business. And do what you can to support the industry in this part of the world. But you will find yourself buying less and less each year if you determine only to buy a produce Made in the USA.
I manage a machine shop and I am a full itme machinist. We have stopped using tooling from a certain American company because it is crap. I have talked with other machine shops and they have the same problems and also stopped using this companies tooling. And this is one of the oldest and highly recognized name in the tooling industry. So if I have a choice between tooling from them or a company from Poland, I'll buy the Polish tools first. Besides, they are of higher quality.
We are in business to make money. Not toss it away at companies that cannot provide us with the tools needed just because they are Made in the USA. Besides, I'm not ordering directly from a foreign tool maker, but buying from an American tool supplier. My order effects the Phone Rep, the Warehouse person that pulls the items, and the shipping person that packs it for shipping, then the shipping clerk that makes sure it gets on the UPS truck.
OK... your turn to shoot at me.....but let me lie down first. I'm an old man and falling can hurt.
____________________
"I Became Insane with Long Intervals of Horrible Sanity" E.A. Poe
"Arguing with a Marine is like wrestling with a Pig. Everyone gets dirty, but the Pig loves it."
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ghrit
HB Life Member
| Joined: | 14 April 2006 |
| Location: | Endless Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 225 |
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Posted: 28 April 2007 11:15 PM |
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I'm in construction. All else being equal, I'll buy US products, both for personal and company use. But I'll buy quality first, every time unless there is a reason why I can't. Some of our clients have "Buy American" clauses in the contracts, so that's what we do, but more often than not, the maintenance costs are higher because the quality is lower.
____________________
Remote locations are cheap insurance.
30-06 - billions served
There are two kinds of ships: Submarines and targets
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Mortis
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 3 March 2007 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 352 |
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Posted: 28 April 2007 11:29 PM |
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ghrit wrote: I'm in construction. All else being equal, I'll buy US products, both for personal and company use. But I'll buy quality first, every time unless there is a reason why I can't. Some of our clients have "Buy American" clauses in the contracts, so that's what we do, but more often than not, the maintenance costs are higher because the quality is lower.
Last time we received a Purchase Order with a "Domestic Material" clause in it, we advised the client that there was no way we could make the parts at the same price as they hard earlier paid for them. They said they were not worried.
The price of Domestic Materials was nearly 3x the cost of what we had been using. When the customer received the bill, they went through the roof. At first they refused to pay the price. But they paid and we have not seen them since.
What most folks do not know is that all metals coming in from foreign mills must meet specific chemical and mechanical requirements for that specific type material. Each lot comes with the mill certifications plus the certifications of the steel company that is acting as the agent here in the US. The old myth that all that comes in from overseas is crap steel is just that...crap.
But I can say that at least 80% of the materials we use in the shop are made in the USA. Mostly because our largest customer requires a specific trademarked name on their prints instead of an ASTM Number.
____________________
"I Became Insane with Long Intervals of Horrible Sanity" E.A. Poe
"Arguing with a Marine is like wrestling with a Pig. Everyone gets dirty, but the Pig loves it."
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CB900F
Administrator
| Joined: | 5 February 2005 |
| Location: | Lesser Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 268 |
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Posted: 29 April 2007 12:35 AM |
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Mortis;
You haven't completely missed the point, but you sure ain't in the X ring.
I prefer to buy American if I can. Example: You wouldn't mention Starrett, I will; they suck. My measuring instruments are Mitutoyo.
However, the point is that Buck isn't exactly making it easy to tell where the product is actually coming from. In effect, they've admitted that 'buy America' is hurting them. Otherwise why not just put "Made In CHINA" on the packaging? If they'd been up front about it, I might have bought it anyway. If I had, I'd be disappointed it wasn't made in America, but I wouldn't complain on the net because I'da known before I purchased it. With their deceptive packaging, I bought thinking CN meant Canada, not China. I find it very hard to believe that that little three letter omission wasn't deliberate with malice aforethought.
The issue isn't where it came from, it's deceptive packaging.
900F
Last edited on 29 April 2007 03:37 AM by CB900F
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Mortis
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 3 March 2007 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 352 |
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Posted: 29 April 2007 12:46 AM |
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900F...
Let's just say our vision of the situation differs only in what we believed what we saw when we thought we was seeing something else while everything else was the same yet different from our viewpoint. 
Actually, the company I was talking about is Cleveland Drill. And I use Fowler calipers & NSK mics. But our Thread micrometers are all Brown & Sharpe. Older then dirt and darn near bullet proof. And since we produce over 350,000 inches of thread each year on 1930's era machines, it is vital that they work.
Yeah...no stupid computers tied to our machines to screw things up. I can screw up enough without having a computer helping.
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"I Became Insane with Long Intervals of Horrible Sanity" E.A. Poe
"Arguing with a Marine is like wrestling with a Pig. Everyone gets dirty, but the Pig loves it."
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Rockydog
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 26 July 2005 |
| Location: | Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 440 |
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Posted: 29 April 2007 04:15 AM |
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| CB, When did Starrett go to hell? I don't use this type of precision tools in my job but my Dad was a Union Millwright in the 60s and 70s. Starrett was the standard of the industry then. If he'd have showed up with anything less they wouldn't let him work. He built both coal fired and nuclear power plants. I'm just curious here. I've got no dog in this hunt. RD
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"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~ Thomas Jefferson ~
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Force_Recon_Marine
Administrator
| Joined: | 7 November 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 1439 |
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Posted: 30 April 2007 01:18 PM |
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| One of my first real jobs was at a machine shop in Talladega, AL about 3 miles from the Super Speedway. If you could even find a Starret in the shop, it would just be laying on a shelf somewhere. No one would use it and that was almost 12 years ago.
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DirtyDingus
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 21 February 2007 |
| Location: | South Of Little Rock, Arkansas USA |
| Posts: | 45 |
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Posted: 5 May 2007 02:43 AM |
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Don't mean this to burst any bubbles, but CA is Canada and CN is China-if the CN was on the package, they labelled it. These are the internationally recognized two letter abbreviations for the two countries.
See this link http://www.immigration-usa.com/country_digraphs.html
It appears that Buck was forthright and straight forward in this instance.
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I used to go skinny dipping, but now all I do is chunky dunk.
DirtyDingus
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wyo300rum
Handloading Master
| Joined: | 20 December 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 1025 |
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Posted: 5 May 2007 03:47 AM |
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| CB900F and Mortis, Mortis, you are a big knife collector like me. Most of mine has been Buck,Gerber and some Benchmade. Have some Camiillus, Schade, K-Bar,etc.. I did notice lately That Buck and Gerber have been having some models made in China. Example Gerber will say "International" . That's a tip off right there. My girlfriend's Mom just retired from Buck after 25 yrs. They are made about 20 miles from me in El Cajon (San Diego) Ca. . For 4 yrs. I could get any knife from Buck for 65 % off. I have allot of Bucks ! I used to get them for gifts for friends. What a set up ! I've bought a few at Wally Mart since then but the last one I bought I didn't pay attention and got home and sure enough, Communist Red Chinese. Same With Gerber. Always made in Oregon. The last one I bought "International" Chinese. We are making the Red Army might strong and through deception also. In knives and guns, I won't trust anything but American. Like Mortis said though, some buy foreign steel to make their blades. Example ,If remember correctly ATS-34 steel is from Japan. Decent though. The new S30V is tough stuff. I have a Gerber Freeman with it w/cocobolo handles. To pretty to gut an animal with. Sog (not made in U.S.) uses AUS-6 and is tuff stuff. Allot of Bucks use the ATS-34. I've found as long as you don't go beyond a 25 degree edge they stay sharp along time. Gerbers seem to have a little more carbon and I've had good luck with 30 degree edge. Last year I used a Buck Cross Lock on 3 bucks (deer) and an elk that I killed and I'm talking gutting , boning, etc. and even helped a friend with his elk and never sharpened it. It stayed plenty sharp. I have a few favorite Gerber's and Bucks I always take with me. Both folders and fixed blades. The new S30V steel seems to keep an edge well too on a couple newer Bucks I have. Anyway, bla bla bla. CB900F, I'm like you. If it say's China on it, I look for something else. They don't buy anything from us. Except for missile technology from crooked politicians , you know who I'm talking about. Last edited on 5 May 2007 03:49 AM by wyo300rum
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I live to hunt. Welcome to my world .
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Force_Recon_Marine
Administrator
| Joined: | 7 November 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 1439 |
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Posted: 5 May 2007 03:03 PM |
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| Its not only Buck and Gerber knives. A lot of Craftsman hand tools are made in China now.
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saddlesore
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 6 February 2005 |
| Location: | Colorado Springs, Colorado USA |
| Posts: | 485 |
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Posted: 5 May 2007 08:18 PM |
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Walmart sells those Buck knives made in China for $14 and that is about what they are worth.
I carried a Buck 110 folder for years. Even had Buck reblade it as it wore down. It never did keep and edge and basically was a POS. Same with a Big Gerber folder. I have a smaller Buck now I carry, and it has been rebladed once. Some thing: POS.
Those old Schrader pocket knives were just as good. I remember sending in 5 Prince Albert coupons that came inside the cans of tobbacco for one free one.
I have never found a good replacement for those old Barlows.
Figure those Chinees put that melamine in wheat gluten to save money that people and pets eat. Just figure what they put in steel to save money
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Timberghozt
Board Founder
| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Plaza De Los Armas, Mexico |
| Posts: | 5339 |
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Posted: 5 May 2007 10:27 PM |
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Hmm...I carry Boker or CaseXX..
but my work pocketknife is a Gerber folder.Been a real good blade for me.Best 40 dollar pocketknife I have ever owned.Sorry to hear you fellas don`t like Gerber.
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"He who fights with monsters might take care, lest he thereby become a monster; For if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - F.Nietzche
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Force_Recon_Marine
Administrator
| Joined: | 7 November 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 1439 |
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Posted: 6 May 2007 04:14 PM |
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I love Gerber and Buck. I bought my dad a Gerber skinner back years ago and it has been a great knife. 
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Swift Silent Deadly
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wyo300rum
Handloading Master
| Joined: | 20 December 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
| Posts: | 1025 |
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Posted: 7 May 2007 03:11 AM |
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| Some Gerber's are still made in the U.S.A.. . I have one Boker I got along time ago. Too nice to use. Have some Case. Good knives but haven't bought one in a long time. My best utility hunting knives a U.S. made Bucks and Gerber's though. I usually carry two 3-3.5 in. folders and one 5-6in. straight blade with me. Saddlesore, I also had a Buck 110 that I wore the blade so small from sharpening when I was a kid it looked like a pen knife.Good old 440C stainless. I still have it. I know Benchmade will re sharpen your knife for free if you send it to them. Their knives are built almost indestructible.
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I live to hunt. Welcome to my world .
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caz223
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 29 May 2005 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 344 |
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Posted: 22 February 2008 01:44 AM |
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I bought 2 gerber bolt action knives about 20 years ago, and carried one wherever I went, the other was for dress occasions like church. One of them cut bales of hay, and stuff like that. I chose that knife because the hay dust that collected in my pocket would interfere with the conventional 'hook' that held lockbacks open.
I still can't tell them apart until I open the blade and see the sharpening marks.
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I'm not just a gun, I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me!)
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skoalman1
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 12 December 2007 |
| Location: | Berkely Springs, West Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 28 |
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Posted: 24 February 2008 06:38 AM |
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| so fellas after reading this its depressing but true,not much of anything anymore is being bought that's made in america.this is true spanning from A-Z .I'M AN AMERICAN THROUGH AND THROUGH,but it is getting harder and harder to be a proud one. my home town don't have a wal-mart ,lowes,home depot etc .but its coming all the hardware stores won't be able to compete an so forth.just for the sake of this forum how about low end rifles.the weatherby vanguards sold at wal-mart.some of them cheap remingtons too.lifted the bolt on a few was very sticky nothing smooth about them actions.have a notion too delete this its so depressing but hell just spent couple minutes typing it.as for knives think the knives i use are westerners,the leather handled fixed blade type don't know where they're made but i'll take a guess.
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SKOALMAN1
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72coupe
Handloading Master
| Joined: | 11 June 2006 |
| Location: | Iowa Park, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1493 |
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Posted: 28 May 2008 11:26 PM |
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A few days ago I ordered an M7 bayonet with scabbard from Sportsman's Guide.
It came yesterday in a box that said made in China. I was very dissappointed. The third time I pulled it out of the scabbard, the scabbard fell into 4 pieces. I inspected the blade and was amazed at how poorly the edges are ground. The point is not a point it is blunt.
The black oxide coating is well done but most of it will have to come off to fix the edges and the point.
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Reloader since 1969.
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