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sdb777
Administrator
| Joined: | 16 October 2005 |
| Location: | Cabot, Arkansas USA |
| Posts: | 1269 |
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Posted: 1 December 2007 12:59 AM |
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 Have just put a 3-9x50mm(not going to mention brand-don't want to turn this into a bashing thingy) on a Thompson Center Encore 300WinMag. Weaver base and Luepold QRW medium rings are torqued to 18 inch pounds on everything(just my thing-torque them all them same).
Problem:
The rifle is now hitting 3" high and 2" left at 100 yards. Simply so far? Now when I turn the adjustment 11 clicks(1/4" adjustments) down and 7 clicks right the problem is.....I'm now grouping 8" low and 4.5" right! Thought I might have looked at the increments of adjustment wrong and went back to adjusting. Six clicks up, and 4 clicks back to the left......three shots off the rest and WTF! Group moved 1" high and 7" to the left! But it consistently groups them there.....and I'm left scratching my head as to what to adjust to get it to group in the middle?
If the scope has some kind of problem, why does it continue to group? The groups are all three shot at 100 yards, and measure .800"-ish to 1.000"-ish! Pretty good for a light weight rifle that is beating the crap out of me(and no, I'm not flinching...just taking a beating). All screws are still torqued at the amount I had before shooting, and nothing moves.
Ideas?
Suggestions?
Anything I've over-looked?
Scott () B
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wheezengeezer
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 16 July 2007 |
| Location: | Jeddediah Jones Swamp, Kansas USA |
| Posts: | 623 |
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Posted: 1 December 2007 02:23 AM |
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i have always made it a habit to preload the adjustment in the same direction.to make it simple,preload in the direction of the arrows.if the adjustment has an arrow to the left and you want to adjust to the right,then go past the desired adjustment at least 2 inches,and then go back 2 inches to the desired setting.this way the adjustment is always approached from the same direction.i figure if there is any slack in the adjustment then this will help compensate for it.
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I was raised in the 50's on gunpowder and jackrabbits.salt and pepper wooda made'em taste better
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Rockydog
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 26 July 2005 |
| Location: | Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 440 |
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Posted: 1 December 2007 03:07 AM |
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| Scott, You might try tapping on the side and top of the scope after making adjustments. If you are screwing the adjuster against the tube you should be OK but when you back the screw away from the tube the spring on the opposite side has to move the tube back against the screw. Sometimes the springs stick a bit and a tap on the scope with an empty case might shift them all the way. RD
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"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~ Thomas Jefferson ~
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wolfkill
Handloading Master
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Posted: 1 December 2007 02:32 PM |
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I had a Bushnell Scopechief (20 years old) sort of do that. Mine would not respond to clicks at all then take off wildly. Something was binding up. I took it out of service with the intent to send it in for repairs but years later I was in need of a 10/22 scope and tried it again and it seemed to have healed itself?
I suppose something could have been binding up inside for some unknown reason. Maybe the tube was stressed with the mounts I had and finally displayed problems.
You could mount your scope on a different rifle and see if the problem is still there. That would positively tell you it's an internal problem in the scope only the manf can fix.
Some years ago Burris marketed a scope with some kind of crosshair locking device. I guess there are internal springs that actually bring the crosshair in the scope back to center after each shot. Burris devised a way to lock it in place. In theory even if the springs got weak you wouln't have to worry esp after spending 5K on a hunting trip. You would never lose your zero due to weak/damaged/stressed internal springs.
Let us know what you find out...
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nksmfamjp
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 29 June 2008 |
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| Posts: | 51 |
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Posted: 21 July 2008 11:38 PM |
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2 things, are QRW rings meant to hold 18 inlbs of torque? Really, on some rings this is pinching the tube. You maybe causing the erector mechanism to be out off alignment or broken. Sorry, I do not know this ring set, but the ones which clamp with gap on both side usually torque to about half that and require locktite to keep from backing out.
Also, did you bed the base or lap the rings. Especially, with 2 bases, there can be enough misalignment to cause problems.
It could just be the scope too. Can you tape it to the ring bases and check how far 4 click s moves the reticle? I realize this is very hard with a good rest and a concrete bench, and impossible otherwise.
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dho3
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 7 September 2008 |
| Location: | Wilson, North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 16 |
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Posted: 7 September 2008 08:41 PM |
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sdb777 wrote: Have just put a 3-9x50mm(not going to mention brand-don't want to turn this into a bashing thingy) on a Thompson Center Encore 300WinMag. Weaver base and Luepold QRW medium rings are torqued to 18 inch pounds on everything(just my thing-torque them all them same).
Problem:
The rifle is now hitting 3" high and 2" left at 100 yards. Simply so far? Now when I turn the adjustment 11 clicks(1/4" adjustments) down and 7 clicks right the problem is.....I'm now grouping 8" low and 4.5" right! Thought I might have looked at the increments of adjustment wrong and went back to adjusting. Six clicks up, and 4 clicks back to the left......three shots off the rest and WTF! Group moved 1" high and 7" to the left! But it consistently groups them there.....and I'm left scratching my head as to what to adjust to get it to group in the middle?
If the scope has some kind of problem, why does it continue to group? The groups are all three shot at 100 yards, and measure .800"-ish to 1.000"-ish! Pretty good for a light weight rifle that is beating the crap out of me(and no, I'm not flinching...just taking a beating). All screws are still torqued at the amount I had before shooting, and nothing moves.
Ideas?
Suggestions?
Anything I've over-looked?
Scott () B
Interesting problem. Having mounted close to 300 scopes, to include re-mounts and sighted in over 200 rifles at least, for me and friends I have a lot of experience and can feel your pain. This is where the brand of scope does come into play. All of the advice given thus far is quite sound. Your initial adjustments produced almost inch movements with each click. Your second adjustment produced almost inch movements with each vertical click and in excess of inch movement with windage clicks. So the scope is remaining relatively repeatable in its clicks, but highly inaccurate as to what it is suppose to be doing. As far as holding zero at the final setting each time means the erector set up in the scope is quite stable and also means that the problem is unlikely due to loose screws or any problems with the base or rings. Typically I use Warne rings and tighten to a recommended 25 inch pounds, so if anything you are probably a little light on the torque on your rings. I would have to ask if you lapped your rings since they are horizontally split and that is the one problem with your rings that could cause a problem, some deformation of the scope tube affecting the erector tube causing the clicks to be off and why they are not precisely off each time. I never lap my bases or use devcon or any other substance on my bases, nor do I use loctite, although I can see no reason not to use any on the bases, at least the type that is not "permanent". But, that should not be your problem. As your groups are tight, I doubt it is the shooter. Therefore, it seems to be breaking down to the scope. I have a distinct feeling that your scope is a Chinese made model that is recoil sensitive to your 300 Winchester magnum.
____________________
There is nothing like the double radius shoulder of a Weatherby cartridge and the magic of the 257 Weatherby magnum.
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dho3
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 7 September 2008 |
| Location: | Wilson, North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 16 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! |
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Posted: 7 September 2008 08:41 PM |
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sdb777 wrote: Have just put a 3-9x50mm(not going to mention brand-don't want to turn this into a bashing thingy) on a Thompson Center Encore 300WinMag. Weaver base and Luepold QRW medium rings are torqued to 18 inch pounds on everything(just my thing-torque them all them same).
Problem:
The rifle is now hitting 3" high and 2" left at 100 yards. Simply so far? Now when I turn the adjustment 11 clicks(1/4" adjustments) down and 7 clicks right the problem is.....I'm now grouping 8" low and 4.5" right! Thought I might have looked at the increments of adjustment wrong and went back to adjusting. Six clicks up, and 4 clicks back to the left......three shots off the rest and WTF! Group moved 1" high and 7" to the left! But it consistently groups them there.....and I'm left scratching my head as to what to adjust to get it to group in the middle?
If the scope has some kind of problem, why does it continue to group? The groups are all three shot at 100 yards, and measure .800"-ish to 1.000"-ish! Pretty good for a light weight rifle that is beating the crap out of me(and no, I'm not flinching...just taking a beating). All screws are still torqued at the amount I had before shooting, and nothing moves.
Ideas?
Suggestions?
Anything I've over-looked?
Scott () B
Interesting problem. Having mounted close to 300 scopes, to include re-mounts and sighted in over 200 rifles at least, for me and friends I have a lot of experience and can feel your pain. This is where the brand of scope does come into play. All of the advice given thus far is quite sound. Your initial adjustments produced almost inch movements with each click. Your second adjustment produced almost inch movements with each vertical click and in excess of inch movement with windage clicks. So the scope is remaining relatively repeatable in its clicks, but highly inaccurate as to what it is suppose to be doing. As far as holding zero at the final setting each time means the erector set up in the scope is quite stable and also means that the problem is unlikely due to loose screws or any problems with the base or rings. Typically I use Warne rings and tighten to a recommended 25 inch pounds, so if anything you are probably a little light on the torque on your rings. I would have to ask if you lapped your rings since they are horizontally split and that is the one problem with your rings that could cause a problem, some deformation of the scope tube affecting the erector tube causing the clicks to be off and why they are not precisely off each time. I never lap my bases or use devcon or any other substance on my bases, nor do I use loctite, although I can see no reason not to use any on the bases, at least the type that is not "permanent". But, that should not be your problem. As your groups are tight, I doubt it is the shooter. Therefore, it seems to be breaking down to the scope. I have a distinct feeling that your scope is a Chinese made model that is recoil sensitive to your 300 Winchester magnum.
____________________
There is nothing like the double radius shoulder of a Weatherby cartridge and the magic of the 257 Weatherby magnum.
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Timberghozt
Board Founder
| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Plaza De Los Armas, Mexico |
| Posts: | 5339 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! |
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Posted: 8 September 2008 12:05 PM |
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I had a Redfield 4x I mounted on my 45-70 Marlin 1895..Damned if it didnt do the same thing(with 300 grain Hornady JHP`s) and a FULL dose of powder by the book load for what the lever gun could handle..
Drove me frickin nuts...BTW(PULLING THE HAMMER ON A 1895 ALL DAY TO ZERO AINT FUN)
I finally got tired of chasing the bullet around the target all day...
Took the Redfield off,dropped a Nikon on it..I was dead zeroed in 6 shots(I am finicky about how close is zeroed btw)
Interestingly,I had a 22 wmr bolt action that needed glass..Tried the Redfield on it..wala...zeroed fast and still holding zero to this day.. guess the Redfield and me both didnt like the punishment that 45-70 hands out
Scott,I am not a scope expert..I`ve mounted enough of em to be one but still.scopes are inherently funny..I have a Leupold on my old model 70 300 Win Mag..for that very reason..I know when I pull the trigger..she has kept zero..and she was easy to sight in with that heavy kicking magnum(anyone who enjoys recoil has mental issues)
ps..I am not bashing cheap scopes..I seen a Tasco on a 30-06 outshoot a Swarovski on a 270 Winchester..but I imagine that had to do more with the shooter..good luck..
TG
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The_Mountaineer
Administrator
| Joined: | 4 February 2005 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 715 |
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Posted: 8 September 2008 02:18 PM |
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Good thread and replies.
A few things that come to mind.
1. Tapping after adjustments. That might "settle" the crosshairs (i.e., simulate recoil) in their adjustment. Older scopes I've seen this be a problem, it'll take a few shots for the crosshairs to settle.
2. True increment? I've seen scopes, especially high dollar ones with friction adjustments simply not be quite standardized in their increment. One hash mark might supposed to be 1/4 MOA but it might be closer to 1/2. Friction adjustments offer a theroretical infinte amount of fine tuning over click adjustments but I still prefer clicks.
3. Mounting of the scope? Lots of different theories on how best to do this. Some include lapping the rings - a big no-no in my book. Anybody ever actually measured the runout on one of those ring lapping bars? It's a very imprecise tool. I'll never saw on my rings with one I doubt. My standard scope mounting method involves leveling the rifle, putting the bases in cleaned receiver holes with no loc-tite and torqued to spec. Next the scope itself is zero traverse adjusted. If there are 200 clicks from one turrent, say windage, I'll center the traverse and then mount the scope. Only when the scope has had its traverse zeroed will it be put into the rings. Adjust for eye relief (mount the rifle with eyes closed, then open them) as this will give you the truest relief. Keeping your eyes open during the process allows you to instinctively move your head foreward or backward to get a full FOV, which takes away a few precious seconds of time in the field. When it comes time to boresight I adjust the rings first and fine tune with the scope adjustments. For example if the POI is 4 inches left I'll loosen the left base screw and tighten the right one (when using Leupold-style mounts). This adjusts POA to right and as a result POI should be closer to the mark. When "close" say around 1 inch or so I'll adjust using the turrets.
Hope this helps!
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dho3
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 7 September 2008 |
| Location: | Wilson, North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 16 |
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Posted: 8 September 2008 02:27 PM |
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The_Mountaineer wrote: Good thread and replies.
A few things that come to mind.
1. Tapping after adjustments. That might "settle" the crosshairs (i.e., simulate recoil) in their adjustment. Older scopes I've seen this be a problem, it'll take a few shots for the crosshairs to settle.
2. True increment? I've seen scopes, especially high dollar ones with friction adjustments simply not be quite standardized in their increment. One hash mark might supposed to be 1/4 MOA but it might be closer to 1/2. Friction adjustments offer a theroretical infinte amount of fine tuning over click adjustments but I still prefer clicks.
3. Mounting of the scope? Lots of different theories on how best to do this. Some include lapping the rings - a big no-no in my book. Anybody ever actually measured the runout on one of those ring lapping bars? It's a very imprecise tool. I'll never saw on my rings with one I doubt. My standard scope mounting method involves leveling the rifle, putting the bases in cleaned receiver holes with no loc-tite and torqued to spec. Next the scope itself is zero traverse adjusted. If there are 200 clicks from one turrent, say windage, I'll center the traverse and then mount the scope. Only when the scope has had its traverse zeroed will it be put into the rings. Adjust for eye relief (mount the rifle with eyes closed, then open them) as this will give you the truest relief. Keeping your eyes open during the process allows you to instinctively move your head foreward or backward to get a full FOV, which takes away a few precious seconds of time in the field. When it comes time to boresight I adjust the rings first and fine tune with the scope adjustments. For example if the POI is 4 inches left I'll loosen the left base screw and tighten the right one (when using Leupold-style mounts). This adjusts POA to right and as a result POI should be closer to the mark. When "close" say around 1 inch or so I'll adjust using the turrets.
Hope this helps!
Very good points. I initially never lapped my rings, but now I do on horizontally split rings if the scope does not appear to fit properly in the rings. I recently placed a Hawke scope that fit perfectly in Warne rings into a set of Burris or Leupold rings that were horizontally split and the rings were way out of center. I had to change rings because the scope did not clear the bold handle lift with the Warne rings and had to go with a higher set for my CZ 527. Yes, I had to lap those and the scope ended up fitting nicely. I have not shot the rifle yet, so we will see. I agree, centering the reticle is something that should be done on all scopes and the Hawke manual is the only one that I have seen that recommends doing that before doing anything else. I really like the idea about adjusting the screws on the range. I have never tried that, but again I use almost exclusively Warne QD vertically split rings which have never failed me. I like the QD rings, despite being more expensive because they are easier to set up and I like to switch scopes.
____________________
There is nothing like the double radius shoulder of a Weatherby cartridge and the magic of the 257 Weatherby magnum.
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