| Posted: Fri Mar 27th, 2009 09:06 PM |
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Hesenwine
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O.K. I'll try to explain this as best as I can.
I recently purchased a new Remingtom SP18 single shot rifle in 7.62 X 39 which was made in Russia. It came with iron sights and a "scope base" like you'd find on a Marlin 60 .22 - 11mm slotted integrated base. The rings I bought (.22 1" medium Weavers) were installed but when mounted with a scope, the rings are too close together to allow any eye relief adjustment. The rings butt up against the windage/elevation adjustment housing.
To solve that problem, I found an adapter to convert the 11mm scope rail to a standard Weaver type base which is much longer and allows plenty of eye relief. The adapter raises the height of the original base maybe 1/4" which is o.k. because it allows the objective bell to clear the iron rear sight.
I installed Weaver Med. 1" rings, put a scope on it, bore sighted it the old fashioned way and went to the range.
It shot high as hell so I cranked the elevation knob until it ran out of adjustment. Still shot about a foot high @ 50 yds.
I have now placed a shim under the front ring and reinstalled the scope thinking that would bring the barrel down. It seemed to when I again bore sighted it. Haven't taken it to the range yet-rain for several days.
So, am I on the right track? Do I need High rings or low rings?
I appreciate anyone's expert advice.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27th, 2009 10:08 PM |
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kombatscouter
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If I understand right, you shimmed the front of the scope on the bottom. My thinking is that would raise the cross hairs. You should shim the back of the scope on the bottom which would lower the cross hairs?
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27th, 2009 10:19 PM |
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Hesenwine
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kombatscouter
I'm operating under the assumption that raising the front of the scope moves the barrell down, no?
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27th, 2009 10:21 PM |
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kombatscouter
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True. But if you are shooting high wouldn't you be increasing the gap instead of closing it
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27th, 2009 10:24 PM |
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kombatscouter
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Remember, the gun should shoot in the same place every time. You are trying to get the cross hairs moveed to that place so you are sighting where the gun shoots. Does that make any since?
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27th, 2009 10:54 PM |
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kombatscouter
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Hesenwine wrote: kombatscouter
I'm operating under the assumption that raising the front of the scope moves the barrell down, no?
I am wrong. I see what you are saying. You are correct. Sorry about that. I would keep the scope as low to the barrel as possible.
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Dave
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27th, 2009 11:31 PM |
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Hesenwine
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Dave,
Yeah, it's shooting high. It needs to shoot maybe 10-12" lower. Theoretically then, if the front of the scope is raised, the barrel lowers. Then, it should shoot lower, right?
I also could be overthinking this as well - done it before. 
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27th, 2009 11:33 PM |
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Hesenwine
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The scope won't clear the freakin' front iron sight so it can't be mounted any lower than it is and still allow objective adjustment.
I already removed the notched sight insert.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 28th, 2009 01:44 AM |
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kombatscouter
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Try the shim first. My bet is that will fix it. If it still gives you trouble you may need to change mounts or rings or both. Good Luck.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 28th, 2009 02:55 AM |
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Gutshot
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Sounds like that adapter is the culprit. Can you get taller rings and maybe a different scope will be needed. While messing with the shims shot it at 25 yards. This will give you approx. the same zero as 100 yards and you can see the target to check your results. Be interesting as to the fix. Keep us informed.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 28th, 2009 06:07 AM |
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varmintcaller
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My hunting partner had a 30-06 that shot so low that he hit the dirt in front of the target at 100 yards. He shimmed the REAR base and the bullet moved UP. I would assume that if you shim the Front Base the bullet impact would move down. The degree of movement would depend on the thickness of the shim.
hope this helps.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 28th, 2009 01:14 PM |
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Hesenwine
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varmintcaller
That's what I was thinking as well. If it stops raining long enough, I'll get over to the range and see if our theory works. 
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| Posted: Sat Mar 28th, 2009 11:42 PM |
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varmintcaller
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Hesenwine
I know it will work. The one thing you might take a look at is the rings you are using. the thickest,or high ring has to be the rear one, and the short ring is the front, some times when you get in a hurry you can mix them up..... dont tell any one but it Happened to me once. Just remember to center your scope before firing.
Last edited on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 11:45 PM by varmintcaller
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I'll give up my sovereignty when I run out of ammo.
Said I didnt have much use for one, Never said I didnt know how to use it
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 12:00 AM |
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Hesenwine
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Varmintcaller,
I had no idea the rings were different from each other. I never heard that before but I'm sure gonna check it out with my caliper.
I've probably mounted 15-20 scopes over the years and never knew that.
Thanks!
Harry
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29th, 2009 10:19 PM |
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varmintcaller
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Its like that on the rings and bases that i use... Leupold. In some of the other mounts either the ring or the bases will show the heigth difference. the tall set goes to the rear.
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I'll give up my sovereignty when I run out of ammo.
Said I didnt have much use for one, Never said I didnt know how to use it
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Offfhand
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Hesenwine, you did the correct thing. Simple rule: Raise rear of scope to hit higher, raise front to hit lower.
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RobertMT
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I have a suggestion, can you just turn the adapter end to end. It sounds like you got a 10 moa or 20 moa sloped adapter for long range shooting. You could measure it to be sure, but I think it's thicker at back than front. I'm assuming adapter clamps to .22 scope rail and has weaver rail on top, you should be able to swap ends if that's the case. Be careful about shimming front ring up too much, unless you lap rings to fit slope, you can torque your scope tube.
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DesertMarine
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You should shim the back part of the mount which lowers the front end of the scope and raises the barrel. I use Burris Posi-align rings which you can change how your scope is aligned. If you want to lower the front of the scope you change the rear ring inserts to raise the back of the scope and the front ring inserts to lower the front end of the scope. The real beauty is that you do not bind or bend your scope. Remember to not overtighten the mounts or rings. You can damage a scope real quick.
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TnTom
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DesertMarine said it right. Make sure what your components measure, not any difference between front and rear and place them accordingly.
Rule of thumb is adjust the rings/mounts not the scope.(adjustable mounts can be very useful). Your adj. knobs are for range compensation not zeroing in your scope. Some slight adjustment 3-4 clicks Max for zeroing should be all you ever need.
Remove the caps from your scope and dial down to the bottom stop then dial all the way to the stop in the opposite direction COUNTING THE CLICKS then dial back half the number of clicks. Do this for both windage and elevation. The cross hairs are now in the center of the sight picture or objective lens. This is really important. You can even start with the scope dialed all the way down but not for what your trying to accomplish. Just get it centered.
Put a target at 35 yds one that has a small 1" black dot. Remove your bolt.
Put your gun in a rest and hold it SECURELY. Place your mounts where you think you want them ( snug but not tightened ). Place your lower half of the your rings about where you think you want them (snug but not tightened).
Lay the scope in the rings.
I find this helps to do in the prone position but if you have a good bench set up its better. Target near the ground or at the level of the bench . Rest / gun vise/ bags on the ground or bench so everything is level (visually). There should be no gap between the ring and the bottom of the tube. Don't even put your top ring halves on yet.
now look through scope and move the gun until the cross hairs are on the dot. (you should have removed the bolt)
Set your eye relief and get your cross hairs squared up. With everything in a near free state (but not falling off) move back a little from the scope and lower your head to look down the center of the bore.
If the bore is perfectly centered on the dot (as you peer down the bore)and the cross hairs are centered on the dot when you look through the scope, all you have left to do is add the top rings and snug them up good. Fire a couple rounds and if it is close and it should be your ready to take it apart and do it again with semi permanent lock tight. If not keep reading.
If not well center using the above preliminary alignment, do this. CENTER the bore on the target dot visually. Adjust the gun in the rest until you feel it center on the dot looking down the bore. Your eye will find center...guaranteed and you'll know it when it happens.
If you have an adjustable set of rings and/or adjustable mounts and your scope still clicked to center, having made no adjustment using W/E settings, move your mounts (top rings halves off) to get your windage cross hair right on (recheck the bore and make sure you didn't move the rifle, it should be all centered visually down the bore still). If you can't move either the rings or mounts to get windage centered with an adjustment screw see if you can shim it, if not you need to get adjustable mounts. From what I read in your description of the problem windage isn't an issue.
Assuming windage is resolved you can now see if you need to raise or lower the front or rear of the scope. using a piece of 8 x 11 printer paper, cut strips and make strips to use as shims narrow as the rings. Stack shims (dont fold) under the tube either (front or rear mount which ever you like) until you have your elevation cross hair centered on the target dot. DONT MOVE THE GUN. Check the view again down the bore.
Measure the amount of shim you used and replace with the appropriate amount with a shim of plastic or copper shim material.
When you have your shims in place and everything seems aligned place your tops on and notice if there is any indication that your might bend the tube as they are tightened. If so you need to lap your rings and do it all again.
Its time consuming but if you bend the tube your better off without a scope.
Lets assume it all went well and your shimmed and everything snugged up and when you look down the bore its right where your cross hairs are pointing (or vice-versa).
Fire a shot it should be within 2" (much less at 35 yds!) or so. You can shim it again going closer without using your W/E adjustments and thats really what I do. When its on target or as close as I can adjust moving rings or mounts and/or shims I lock tight it and make a final adjustment with the knobs.
When I make the final adjustment after I have everything locktighted I do it like this.
Gun tight in the rest. cross hairs on the bull, fire a shot. Gun tight in the rest cross hairs on the bull adjust your W/E knobs until the cross hairs are over the bullet holes and your dead on. Shoot the bull and it should print right where you aimed.
This has been way to long but its good to know. It should take a while to do it but its the only way to go. Saves you a ton of rounds. If you notice we only fired a couple of shots. Hope you got it fixed anyway if not try this.
There is a tool to check ring alignment and believe me sometimes they are not in alignment but if you watch closely for any sign of kinking the tube you can do a good job without the added expense.
Adjust the rings and mounts as much as possible and not the scope.
Last edited on Sun Nov 8th, 2009 02:01 AM by TnTom
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Hesenwine
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TnTom,
Thanx very much for that step-by-step instruction "manual"! It'll be very helpful.
I actually tried many of those things and normally use the "sight down the bore" method but this particular rifle gave me fits. For one, I don’t have a vice and 2) It’s a single shot break-open design.
Also, finding a base adapter to attach to the 11mm dovetail on the receiver was a chore. The only one I could find in Weaver-type has only 2-3 cross slots so gaining proper eye relief was impossible-but I got close enough for now. I suspect the final solution will be tapping the receiver.
I had to remove the rear iron sight as it interfered with objective movement.
I next went through my collection of rings and decided nothing was going to work, I bought Burris Z-rings and the shim kit. I also broke down and got a cheap bore sighter.
After several attempts with the various inserts, and going through the "click" procedure to center the cross hairs, the scope in now right on the money with the bore sighter (old fashioned kind, not laser).
I haven’t had a chance to get to the range in a month or so as my wife’s having some serious health issues at the moment but I’m all set with an auxiliary target to poke in the ground at 25 yards (our range starts at 50 and goes to 300).
Anyway, thanks again for your help.
BTW, where’s Woodbury?
Harry
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