| Posted: Sun Nov 1st, 2009 10:46 PM |
|
1st Post |
Thecyberguy
Handloading Master
| Joined: | Sat Aug 1st, 2009 |
| Location: | Town Of Sweden, Oxford County, Maine USA |
| Posts: | 597 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | The one in my hands at the that moment. |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
OK....guys, I am going to show my ignorance here. 
Is there any advantage or disadvantage to using nickel plated brass with bottle neck cartridges such as a 243 win cal? 
Does anyone have any experience with it?
Thanks and have a good 'un, Guy
____________________
I am STILL an angry gun owner.....and the time to vote is coming!!!!!
Support our troops.....they are someone's kids.
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 1st, 2009 11:25 PM |
|
2nd Post |
fryboy
Administrator
| Joined: | Sun Feb 24th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 2870 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | ones that work |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
ummm it stays cleaner looking longer .....it's shiny silver instead of brass ( which tarnishes easier and quicker)u can use it to identify different loads at a glance ( if u load them diff that is ) it works ..it's always been open to personal preference , most seem to agree that it is a lil ( just a wee bit ) harder to size,i have some 38/357 that the nickel is wearing thin on ( call me super polish man but i think it's at least 20-25 years old ) as long as it's not flaking off it should be ok ,i prefer brass, umm one more thing ? it isnt really recommended for reforming into other calibers ( partly because of possible flaking and that it's harder than brass)
____________________
(happy shootin'-the best way to get empty brass!)
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 03:00 PM |
|
3rd Post |
Dragon88
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Mon Dec 1st, 2008 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 686 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | rifle | | My favorite chambering is:: | 44 Magnum |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I tried resizing cases from the 308 Hornady TAP load. Great looking black nickel cases, not so great looking after sizing. Stuff starts to flake off real quick, and some say they are harder on dies. Don't know if I believe that, though nickel flaking off inside the die could be an issue.
I've had great luck with nickel 357 cases though, use them for my full power load so they're easy to distinguish.
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 02:03 AM |
|
4th Post |
Gnarly
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Wed May 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 64 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
The .357Mags are the only ones I reload.
The oldtimer who taught me to handload once told me,"Don't even try sizing any bottleneck rifle cases in my dies,youngun!"
When I asked why,he said they were harder than "real brass" and would "flake off and ruin dies!"And he insisted that is the reason why pistol dies were "carbide" dies- he said, "They're harder'n rifle dies!"
Not sure that's fact,but I never tried sizing any nickel rifle cases.Even after I got my own dies!
----Gnarly 
____________________
~*~ Pray for Peace but reload more ammo ~*~
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 02:10 AM |
|
5th Post |
Busted
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Sun Sep 13th, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 153 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | 30-06 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Have the experience to know that it works but I don't care for it. The friction of the nickle is higher, making it slightly more difficult to size and the extra hardness works on trimmer cutters more than I like.
But, it's purty when it's new!
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 02:23 AM |
|
6th Post |
miestro_jerry
Guest
| Joined: | |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I have a good supply of 45-70 brass in nickle and never had any sizing problems. I use STP for my sizing lube, I find that it works better for some rifle cases.
Plus it looks pretty when it all cleaned up and loaded.
Jerry
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 04:25 PM |
|
7th Post |
Thecyberguy
Handloading Master
| Joined: | Sat Aug 1st, 2009 |
| Location: | Town Of Sweden, Oxford County, Maine USA |
| Posts: | 597 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | The one in my hands at the that moment. |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Well, I thought I was going to find out first hand.
I ordered a bag of 20 from kensbrass.com with a couple other sizes and he sent plain brass instead of the nickel plated.
My son thought the nickel plated brass for the 357 mag was "cool" so I thought he might think it cool to reload some for his .243.
I was a bit disappointed.
Thanks for all the info, guys.
Have a good 'un, Guy
____________________
I am STILL an angry gun owner.....and the time to vote is coming!!!!!
Support our troops.....they are someone's kids.
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 05:53 PM |
|
8th Post |
Rapier
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Mon Oct 29th, 2007 |
| Location: | Destin, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 154 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I use nickel plated brass in just about everything, from the 223 to the 300 WSM. I use it for 7TCU out of 223, 22-250 AI, 260 out of 243 and various other cats. I anneal it like brass-brass and I have never had any problem with the nickel brass at all, in 25 years using it for my match brass in competition. There is no difference in Brass-Brass and nickel brass except it looks cleaner and cleans easier. It wears at the same rate, splits, etc. But, I do like it better for hunting where weather might be a problem, like Africa, where I took only nickel brass with me on the week long hunt.
Best,
Ed
____________________
"who can afford so to cover his country with troops for its defense as that 10,000 men descending from the clouds might not in many places do an infinite deal of mischief before a force could be brought together to repel them?" Franklin
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 02:31 PM |
|
9th Post |
Busted
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Sun Sep 13th, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 153 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | 30-06 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
"I have a good supply of 45-70 brass in nickle and never had any sizing problems."
Didn't mean to imply nickled cases have "problems", just that it does have a greater resistance to sizing. With good lube it goes well enough but not as slick as unplated brass does.
|
Paul B
Handloading Master
| Joined: | Sun Sep 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 560 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I haven't seen any nickel plated brass "flake off" yet, but I have seen it wear off, usually after being tumbled a few times. I also haven't seen where they're all that much harder to resize if properly lubricated. I also wonder if that is even "Nickel plating"?
If anyone has a copy of Ken Waters PET LOADS, read the section on the .280 Remington where he opined that the plating might be cadmium rather than nickel. I do know that all the winchester .280 Rem. brass I have is plated with whatever that stuff might be and it's not been a problem.
Seems like myths of that type seem to pop up out of nowhere. You knw, stuff like a 30-06 with a 1 in 12" twist will not stabilize 220 gr. bulets or that the .308 is not capable of decent velecity with heavy bullets like the 200 and 220 gr. weights. So we all read what that "egg-spurt", John Q. Gunwriter sez and it's holy writ, gospel from above.  Being a bit of a skeptic, I've shot 220 gr. bullets in a .308 with darn good results and yes, a 30-06 with a 1 in 12" twist will stabilize a 220 gr. bullet . 
As an example, at one time, the 30-40 Krag with 220 gr. bullet at roughly 2,000 FPS was considered a good elk cartridge. yet, a .308 Win. with the same weight bullet at 2310 FPS (from my rifle) would not be? Gimme a break. That .308, a Winchester M70 also has a 1 in 12" twist and groups run .375" to .50" at 100 yards. So much for that myth.
After just those examples, based on my own personal testing, I take what most gun writers say with a grain of salt.
Coming back to the plated brass though, I do notice that they are a bit more difficult to trim and it's difficult to tell when you've applied enough heat when annealing those cases. I just hold the case in my fingers and when they start to get warm, drop them into the water. It's worked for me so far doing it that way. I also find I have to anneal them sooner than conventional brass cases, usually after three reloadings rather than my normal five. YMMV.
Paul B.
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 08:30 PM |
|
11th Post |
argon99
member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 3 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | rifle | | My favorite chambering is:: | 45/70 308 300 wsm |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I happened to find this page while surfing for other information. I noticed that the reason Nickel plated brass has advantages of plain brass was not completely answered so I thought I would register and throw in my two cents.
The big reason to use nickle plated brass is accuracy. The reason it is more accurate is bolt thrust. When a round is fired the walls of the cartridge expand and grip the walls of the chamber. This "grip" is called he coefficient of friction between the materials that are gripping each other. Brass on steel has a coefficient of friction of 0.44 (sliding). The coefficient of friction for nickel on steel is 0.64 (sliding). I am quoting the results for sliding friction for two reasons. The main one is there is no listing for static of nickel on steel ( from the table I am using) and there is some movement before the walls grip each other. So it is sliding until it comes to a stop ( it's only a fraction of a second but it is there.)
So if the cartridge stops, or reduces bolt thrust, then the alignment of the cartridge to the bore will be more consistent. Thus allowing for more accuracy. If the chamber, and or cartridge is oiled, all this goes out the window and the amount of bolt thrust goes up exponentially. When that happens the bolt face moves back taking up all the clearances in whatever receiver design one is using. This is a bad thing, and if you are on the ragged edge of pressure of what your weapon will contain it will blow up in your face.
When I shoot I use brake clean on all my rounds to get any oil or grease off of them, case lube for sizing is a huge problem, and I use brake clean on a swab in my chamber. The reason for this, that anyone that knows me well will confirm, is I am ragged and on the edge most of the time.
I am going to post the table I got these numbers from. You might want to take a look at copper on steel, read bullet jacket on bore, and lead on steel, read cast bullet on bore. The copper on steel is 0.36, lead on steel is 0.95. This means it takes almost three times the amount of energy to push a cast bullet down the bore then a jacketed one. Please remember the "lube" on a cast bullet isn't really a lube. It is a defluxing agent so that the lead doesn't "solder" itself to the bore. But if you did something like coat our cast rounds with moly it will reduce this friction. ( yea I can hear the howling already, NO MOLY IN MY BORE ;-} )
Here is the table:
http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/frictioncoefficients.htm
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 08:56 PM |
|
12th Post |
argon99
member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 3 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | rifle | | My favorite chambering is:: | 45/70 308 300 wsm |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Paul B wrote:
Coming back to the plated brass though, I do notice that they are a bit more difficult to trim and it's difficult to tell when you've applied enough heat when annealing those cases. I just hold the case in my fingers and when they start to get warm, drop them into the water. It's worked for me so far doing it that way. I also find I have to anneal them sooner than conventional brass cases, usually after three reloadings rather than my normal five. YMMV.
Paul B.
I think a lot of the practises that we reloaders use actually started when we were all making 25 dollars a week and had to make that do for raising our families as well as supporting our gun habits. But now we are making a lot more money then 25 bucks a week so maybe we should take a look at the things we do.
I bought 50 300 wsm brass for 35 dollars plus change. So lets say I get three reloads our of these. That the same as dividing 35 by three for 11.666 for the equivalent of 150 rounds ( 3 x 50). So then what about five reloads? That's 35 divided by 5, That's 7 dollars for 250 rounds. Now whats is the savings of just chucking the brass after three reloads or triiming and annealing them to get five reloads? That would be 11.6666 minus 7 for a woping savings of $4.66. I don't know about you but the time it took me to anneal and trim the brass was worth way more then $4.66.
Please don't get me wrong. I used to do all this stuff also. Just oneday I sat down with may trusty calculator and figured out how much I was "saving" by jumping through these hoops. It didn't take me long to determine it wasn't worth all the touble I was going through. So I have a five gallon bucket that I chuck my old brass into. Someday it will be full and I can sell the scrap and buy some new brass with what I make off it.
But hey if you want to sit in a darkened room and heat up brass until it starts to glow go for it. Just realize the propane is costing you more then what you are saving on brass.
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 09:59 PM |
|
13th Post |
Rapier
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Mon Oct 29th, 2007 |
| Location: | Destin, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 154 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Argon,
All true with exceptions, such as cats. When you shoot cats it is a labor of love and you frequently must go to the dark room for penance to the shooting gods.
Best,
Ed
____________________
"who can afford so to cover his country with troops for its defense as that 10,000 men descending from the clouds might not in many places do an infinite deal of mischief before a force could be brought together to repel them?" Franklin
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 24th, 2009 05:29 AM |
|
14th Post |
argon99
member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 23rd, 2009 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 3 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | rifle | | My favorite chambering is:: | 45/70 308 300 wsm |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Rapier wrote:
Argon,
All true with exceptions, such as cats. When you shoot cats it is a labor of love and you frequently must go to the dark room for penance to the shooting gods.
Best,
Ed
Many years ago, gee it's been over thirty, a friend asked me if I would loan him a pistol. He had a pond with very expensive gold fish ( yea I know they have some Jap name but they are just gold fish to me). There was a local cat that was eating his very expensive gold fish. Well the only pistol I had at the time that I would loan out was a German made revolver in 44 mag. About a week latter he brought the pistol back. I asked him if it killed the cat. He got this strange look on his face and said "It turned it inside out!!" And I'm sure it did.
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 24th, 2009 10:44 AM |
|
15th Post |
Rapier
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Mon Oct 29th, 2007 |
| Location: | Destin, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 154 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Lol, lol not feline cats my man, wildcats, as in 6x47, 6.5x06 or 7 TCU, etc.
best,
Ed
____________________
"who can afford so to cover his country with troops for its defense as that 10,000 men descending from the clouds might not in many places do an infinite deal of mischief before a force could be brought together to repel them?" Franklin
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 24th, 2009 01:51 PM |
|
16th Post |
Bigdog57
Handloading Master
| Joined: | Thu Oct 30th, 2008 |
| Location: | Tallahassee, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 983 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Argon, by your standards, I am really wasting my time converting say, .30-06 into 8mm Mauser, or .243Win into .308Win. Lots of time expended, could simply buy new brass......
But, I have the old brass and no gun chambered for it, I have the time, and I enjoy doing it, being a longtime DIYer. And, the inner Scotsman in me abhors waste. 
I haven't shot individual reloaded cases enough yet to try annealing htem, but will when the time comes. Reloading is a HOBBY for me - I do not factor in personal time costs when engaged in a hobby.
____________________
NRA Life Member, USAF 76-80, USN 80-86
Lifelong Florida Cracker!
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 24th, 2009 05:32 PM |
|
17th Post |
Paul B
Handloading Master
| Joined: | Sun Sep 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 560 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Argon said, "I am going to post the table I got these numbers from. You might want to take a look at copper on steel, read bullet jacket on bore, and lead on steel, read cast bullet on bore. The copper on steel is 0.36, lead on steel is 0.95. This means it takes almost three times the amount of energy to push a cast bullet down the bore then a jacketed one. Please remember the "lube" on a cast bullet isn't really a lube. It is a defluxing agent so that the lead doesn't "solder" itself to the bore. But if you did something like coat our cast rounds with moly it will reduce this friction. ( yea I can hear the howling already, NO MOLY IN MY BORE ;-} )"
No moly in my bore is absolutely correct. Gun writer Rick Jamison did some experimentation with moly over a period of time and when he removed the moly from the bore of the rifle, there was serious CORROSION that had formed under the coating of moly. That stuff apparantly was somewhat hygroscopic, that is it attracted moisture and allow the barrel to corrode.
Argon also said, "I think a lot of the practises that we reloaders use actually started when we were all making 25 dollars a week and had to make that do for raising our families as well as supporting our gun habits. But now we are making a lot more money then 25 bucks a week so maybe we should take a look at the things we do."
Partially correct and it's not about the money. During WW-2, you couldn't buy a round of ammo to save your butt. The only ammo available to civilians was .22 Long rifle and 30-30 Winchester and those were restricted to farmers and ranchers. farmers could buy the .22's to shoot animals raiding their crops and ranchers the 30-30 ammo to prevent predators from killing livestock. Everything was rations and one really had to make do when it came to reloading ammo.
There was an old gentleman that live across the street from me who was a bullet caster. He would reload ammo for people with cast bullets at a very high price. Most of the cost was in the form of a deposit. Bring the empties back and you got a substantial refund. That man taught a nosy pestiferous kid an awful lot about the use of home cast bullets. If one had a supply of powder, primers and brass and a pot and mold, one could keep on shooting when everything else was not available. Something like the powder and primer situation of today only worse.
To this day I still shoot roughly 100 cast bullets to every jacketed round.
When you get to breaking down the cost of a round of ammo, the most expensive component is usually that brass case. (I'll ignore those overpriced premium bullets as I do not use them for most of my hunting, unless I'm shooting a magnum something.) The cost of that brass case (Nickel plated cases are still brass) is reduced by 50 percent every time you reload it. That might not mean much with say a 30-30 or .223 Rem. but consider the cost of brass for say a .375 H&H, .404 Jeffery or .416 Rigby and then it starts to mean something. When brass can run as high a 2 or 3 dollars a round for just the brass, cost saving measures start to have real meaning. The last time I bought a box of ammo for my .416 Rigby, it ran $6.25 per shot. Figure at least half that cost or more was just for the case. BTW, Federal Premium .416 Rigby brass is nickel plated. Call ith 3 bucks for the case. One reload and it's now a buck fifty for the case, and so on for every reload. One treats that stuff like the every expensive stuff it is.
For some people, time is important. Gotta get this stuff loaded can't waste any time doing it. Gotta git-r-done.
Wonder how one of that type would feel having to load ammo with a Lyman 310 tong tool? Sometimes, I find it very relaxing to reload my 30-30 ammo with one of those tools It came with the 1911 vintage M94 Winchester that belonged to my Great-grandfather who was a Basque sheepherder in Nevada. I even have the mold and tools he used to cast his bullets and when things get hectic and I need to calm down, I'll fire up the Coleman stove (I have a proper electric pot, but this is different.) melt some lead, cast the bullets. I'll lube and size them in the old fashioned way and then load up a box or two with that old Lyman tool, just as that old Basque sheepherder did oh so long ago. I never knw the old man but I can experience how he did it way back when this country was in a lot better shape than it is now. efore i Gorget, those loads made the old fashioned way will kill deer just as nicely as anything Winchester puts out today. It's not a lot of work, just relaxing fun time.
BTW, the only reason I see a need for nickel plated brass is so that it does not turn green in leather shell holders on your belt. I don't know id that ugly green stuff (verdigis) actually hurts the brass or not but is sure is ugly.
Paul B.
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 24th, 2009 08:58 PM |
|
18th Post |
Rapier
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | Mon Oct 29th, 2007 |
| Location: | Destin, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 154 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Aargon,
Let me make a clarification about what I agree with. I was agreeing with your post of the 23rd at 3:56. However I do not agree with any part of the post of 3:30.
Best,
Ed
____________________
"who can afford so to cover his country with troops for its defense as that 10,000 men descending from the clouds might not in many places do an infinite deal of mischief before a force could be brought together to repel them?" Franklin
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 24th, 2009 11:21 PM |
|
19th Post |
miestro_jerry
Guest
| Joined: | |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I wish I could get some Palma Match ammo in 7.62 NATO, it looks so pretty, everything is so shiney with the nickle plating.
It shoots well also.
Jerry
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 25th, 2009 12:03 AM |
|
20th Post |
72coupe
HB certified Master Handloading and Ballistics advisor
| Joined: | Sun Jun 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Iowa Park, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2017 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
In answer to your question. Nickeled brass will definately ruin your bottled necked rifle dies. I have ruined 3 dies in 223 and 1 in 308.
The only advantage I see to nickeled cases is that they cycle smoother in rapid fire in a bolt action rifle.
I don't use nickeled rifle cases anymore.
____________________
Reloader since 1969.
|
| Current time is 06:23 AM | Page: 1 2   |
|
