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nontypical55
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| Joined: | 31 December 2006 |
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Posted: 1 February 2007 02:56 PM |
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| Hi!! Guys I am new to the bench, and the 45-70, can anyone tell me what is the max load for the H&R BC. I would like to know its limit, for safety.Thanks, Jack
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steve a
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 2 February 2007 |
| Location: | Highdesert,california |
| Posts: | 84 |
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Posted: 11 February 2007 11:52 PM |
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| I have a H&R Shikari in 45/70. It's simular to BC Classic. I stick to the standard loads in the manuals. I would'nt try and make a magnum out of it. It would most likely hold together but the recoil in this light a rifle is more than I wan't to put up with.
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nontypical55
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 31 December 2006 |
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Posted: 13 February 2007 04:38 AM |
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Thanks, for your time, and your help. I have never loaded for the H&R. I know the max for the 3 different types of actions, I just didn't know where the H&R fit in... Thanks again for your time and information.. I enjoy this site and the help.. Maybe you could suggest a load that you like, that i could try....
Thanks, Jack
Last edited on 13 February 2007 04:40 AM by nontypical55
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steve a
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| Joined: | 2 February 2007 |
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| Posts: | 84 |
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Posted: 13 February 2007 07:21 PM |
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| The only time I tried loading for it was black powder loads. I was'nt very successful. With black powder It scattered bullets everywhere. I don't know if the bore did'nt like the bp or if my skills were lacking. Suspect the latter. It dose just fine with factory loads. About 3" at 100yds. I can't do much better with iron sights.
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Riposte1
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| Joined: | 10 July 2006 |
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Posted: 13 February 2007 07:57 PM |
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I have had a Shikari for a long, long time. I completely agree with Steve, limit it to springfield loads. I have an acquaintenance who tried to hot rod one and it came "undone" .
Riposte
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steve a
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 2 February 2007 |
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| Posts: | 84 |
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Posted: 13 February 2007 08:17 PM |
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Hey Riposte,
Did you ever try black powder in yours? I wanted to shoot bp cartridge silouhet with a local club but my loads were hopless.
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Riposte1
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Posted: 14 February 2007 01:31 AM |
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No Sir, I have not. I would have to dig out my old notes but I feel sure that I used relatively mild loads of 3031 and 4198, which is what I used in more copious quantities in my Marlin 1895 and later Ruger #3 (safety is "self-regulated" in the Ruger - you stop when it hurts too good!  ).
Later I tried Reloader 7 but that was just in the Marlin and Ruger, that worked really well with both jacketed and cast bullets.
Prior to the Shikari in .45-70 I had one in 58 caliber percussion - that I tried black powder in... it worked fine with patched balls but there were not special seasons back then and scant encouragement to do all that cleaning.
Riposte
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steve a
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 2 February 2007 |
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| Posts: | 84 |
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Posted: 14 February 2007 04:13 AM |
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Thanks for the feedback. I love my Shikari. Just wish it would handle bp as well as it dose the smokeless. My first "real" gun was a H&R Topper in 12ga. It'd smack you pretty good with 3" mags in it. I've still got it. I also have New England Handy Rifle in .223. She sure is handy too!
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nontypical55
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 31 December 2006 |
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Posted: 14 February 2007 10:48 PM |
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| Thanks for all the help. I think its time to give it a try.. I will let you know how it does.. Thanks, jack
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72coupe
Handloading Master
| Joined: | 11 June 2006 |
| Location: | Iowa Park, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1465 |
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Posted: 15 February 2007 12:45 AM |
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| Steve, have you tried different brands of Black Powder? There are several different brands available and some may work better in your rifle than others. I understand that black powder loads should be consistently compressed.
____________________
Reloader since 1969.
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drinks
Handloading Master
| Joined: | 6 February 2005 |
| Location: | Trinity, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 491 |
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Posted: 15 February 2007 02:37 AM |
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It is my understanding the H&R shakari is on the cast iron shotgun frame, the reason H&R/NEF will not fit other barrels on it.
The SB2 steel actions made since about 1990, will handle most anything, including .500 S&W at 60,000 psi.
I have an SB2 handi in .45-70 and the limit is me, not the rifle, 320gr gcs at 2300fps, 405gr gcs at 2000 and 500gr gcs at 1850fps
My current hunting load is the 320gr RF GC with 65gr WC 844, 2100fps , estimated pressure of 35,000 or less.
This is an overload on my shoulder, even with the factory recoil pad.
My .35 Whelen Handi gives 2300fps with a 215gr RN GC and 2600fps with a 200gr Rem. PSP with no problems.
I would not recommend the Ruger #1 loads, at least not the max, but most of the starting loads should be all right if you can take it.
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steve a
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 2 February 2007 |
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| Posts: | 84 |
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Posted: 15 February 2007 03:43 AM |
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Hi Coupes and Drinks ,
I've only used one kind of bp. The same old stuff in the red can, can't remember the brand(GOEX?). I don't think its the powder. It always worked fine in my front stuffers. I loaded it through a drop tube but did'nt compress the load. I think it was something with the bullets. Maybe my lube was wrong. It was a commercial bp lube. I guess I need to get back to the drawing board and try again. It's tough right now. All my loading stuff is in storage pending a move in the near future.
I agree with you on the recoil aspects of the H&R. Light rifle and hard buttplate do get your attention. With medium loads throwing those fat 'ol .405s I never really felt under gunned anywhere time I carried.
Is there a weakness proplem with the cast iron frames on the old H&Rs?
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drinks
Handloading Master
| Joined: | 6 February 2005 |
| Location: | Trinity, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 491 |
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Posted: 15 February 2007 03:29 PM |
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55 and steve;
As far as I know, the shakari is a shotgun action with a safe pressure level of about 22-25,000 psi, I would not exceed trapdoor loads with one.
The BCs are the new SB2 action and that action comes from the factory with barrels for cases loaded from the factory at 50-60,000 psi.
I have had no problem with my .45-70 on a SB2 action with about 800 shots fired, but some have had a problem with the underlug being a bit soft and the headspace increasing.
The problem can be fixed, for a while, by shimming the pivot, but eventually something more permanent will be necessary.
Steve, it is difficult to get a .45-70 Handi barrel to shoot accurately with cast if the bullet is not fairly hard and about .002" larger than the groove diameter.
The Lee 405gr HB is very accurate, in my Handi, if I stay below1300fps.
I have my best accuracy with 26gr IMR 4198, 1150fps, and 24gr WC 820, 1250fps.
Both gave a ragged hole at 50 yds, the bullet was not sized, just lubed.
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steve a
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 2 February 2007 |
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| Posts: | 84 |
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Posted: 15 February 2007 05:34 PM |
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Thanks Drinks,
I think the bullet was my problem. I was casting pure plumber's lead unsized. Don't get much softer than that. I'll try my pistol alloy. I'll let you folks know how it works out.
Thanks again,
Steve
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J_B
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 19 March 2007 |
| Location: | Kalispell, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 27 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! |
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Posted: 20 March 2007 02:10 PM |
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I'm going to step in here on this one since I have owned quite a few of the Buffalo Classic's and even had the Buffalo Classic Shooting Society or more commonly known as The BCSS at one point. I developed the very first website for just the Buffalo Classic in 45-70 and the Target Model in 38-55 in 1996. There is quite the following or was on the Graybeards Outdoors Forum.
The Buffalo Classic is on a very modern SB-2 frame and is fully capable of using Garrett or Buffalo Bore ammunition.. yes you heard me right. This includes ALL Ruger #1 loadings... your shoulder will give out before your Buffalo Classic will. We had quite the debate over at Graybreards Outdoors about this too. I spoke to James Garrison CEO of 1871H&R before the take over by Marlin. Mr Garrison plainly stated that the Buffalo Classic will handle ALL loads that are SAMMI specs. One guy that I do know personally has reamed his chamber up to 45-120 which makes the case length 3.25" long btw. Tim has done some fine work on his collection of Buffalo Classic rifles and other creations of them to include a 405 Winchester chambering.
We also discussed at length about sights for the Buffalo Classic as well... and no the current stupid Williams rear peep sight is not even remotely period correct and along with a front tunnel sight that is too high. We discussed that the Buffalo Classic would be better suited with a Smith Elevator Ladder Sight out on the barrel place approx 6.5" down from the breech brake and that a front blade sight was more period correct like you see on my Remington Rolling Block below. I have even thought about getting another Buffalo Classic and putting a William Malcom telescopic sight on it just for kicks.
James Garrison and I did come up with a special offer for those interested and to my knowledge is still holding up today for a Steel Trigger Guard and Forend Spacer that is of the same case color look as the reciever of the SB-2 frame.
There is also an offer for a dead mule or recoil reducer offer but I used to just make my own using a hollow metal mop handle cut to length for the stock bolt hole. The tube is then plugged at one end real good using a tap. Then mix epoxi with lead shot for weight. You should be able to get about 2 pounds of added weight. Before you place you dead mule into stock bolt hole use some rubber padding that is stuck on the end that will be against the stock bolt hole. Then use rubber padding against the end that will be up against the metal cresant butt plate.. this will stop the jackhammer effect that recoil will have on this. DO NOT GLUE THIS IN as this is your only way into the stock in case you need to remove your butt-stock.
I shot alot of BPCR with these rifles and can tell you with the 1:20 rifling twist the favorite bullets were of 405-gr up to 550-gr soft cast and the maximum range that I have shot the Buffalo Classic at was 804 yards at the Quigley Match held in Forsyth, Mt evey year. It is unfortunet that the Buffalo Classic is not allowed in most BPCR NRA matches... but matches such as the Quigley it is very much allowed.
I still do BPCR shooting but with a C Sharps in 45-70 and a 1876 #1 Remington Rolling Block in 45-90 this one is my baby...
When I'm not target shooting and have this set up for hunting it looks like this:
If I can be of help with anyone who has a Buffalo Classic or is thinking about getting one send me a PM. There is plenty of other BPCR related information on my web site at Black Powder Chronicles and More.
You all have a great day.
____________________
"J_B"
"Call B-4-UDIG
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J_B
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 19 March 2007 |
| Location: | Kalispell, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 27 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! |
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Posted: 20 March 2007 02:20 PM |
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steve a wrote: Thanks Drinks,
I think the bullet was my problem. I was casting pure plumber's lead unsized. Don't get much softer than that. I'll try my pistol alloy. I'll let you folks know how it works out.
Thanks again,
Steve
Steve
The first bullet I was casting was the Lee Mold 459-405-HB with nothing but pure lead and it work real good and accurate. Here is a target I shot using smokeless loads because I was out of Goex FFg, and the BCSS was have a Spring Shoot.. I shot this even though I could not enter for score because I was running the postal match. I had a couple of sighters that are taped over, then the 5 shot group was done. The Buffalo Classic was placed on cross sticks for this at 200 yards using a long range tang sight from that Browning uses on their 1885 BPCR rifles. The front tunnel sight was a Lyman 17A.
Last edited on 20 March 2007 02:21 PM by J_B
____________________
"J_B"
"Call B-4-UDIG
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Timberghozt
Board Founder
| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Plaza De Los Armas, Mexico |
| Posts: | 5286 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! |
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Posted: 20 March 2007 02:48 PM |
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Beautiful rifle J_B...
____________________
"He who fights with monsters might take care, lest he thereby become a monster; For if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - F.Nietzche
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J_B
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 19 March 2007 |
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| Posts: | 27 |
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Posted: 20 March 2007 02:58 PM |
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Thanks, I've hunted with it over in the Tiber Dam area just below Chester... at 11.5 pounds you know your carrying a rifle. And up and down those coolies well, you know what I'm talkin about where you live.
I've also had it over in the Petroleum County area south of the CM Russell.
I really think it is better suited for a good bison hunt, and for our prairie hunting and over all wide open spaces, I will stick with my 30-06
____________________
"J_B"
"Call B-4-UDIG
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Timberghozt
Board Founder
| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Plaza De Los Armas, Mexico |
| Posts: | 5286 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! |
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Posted: 20 March 2007 03:05 PM |
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I hear ya.I have only ever used my 45-70 once hunting.I killed a big trophy boar hog with it that I had been hunting for a while.A 300 gr Hornady HO behind a full dose of IMR4198.
Everyone talks about how tough hogs are(and they are)I put that bullet in him and he laid over deader than a hammer as if struck by lightning.And this wasn`t no 100 pound meat hog,he`s a big dude.
I`ve shot em with a 300 Win Mag,good shots and had em take off for cover and run 50 yards blew all to hell internally.
I do have a real respect for a 45-70.Sadly I have a1895 Marlin with a microgroove barrel and I cast seem to get it to shoot cast well?
I want one made by Cimmaron (sp) arms but can`t spend the money on it right now.
____________________
"He who fights with monsters might take care, lest he thereby become a monster; For if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - F.Nietzche
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wolfkill
Handloading Master
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Posted: 20 March 2007 03:56 PM |
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Those NEF handi's are so sweet. The buffalo classic is on my list for a must have.
Graybeard Outdoors still has his "handi-holics" going strong.
If anyone is looking for versatility the NEF handi rifles are it. Start with a basic rifle for $200.00 and extra barrels can be headspaced to the receiver for under $87.00
http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/youth.aspx
Some of you guys just saw my bear from last year taken with my single shot handi 30-06.
They can be dressed up from the plain Jane model or kept as is for a beat around gun.
Big game hunting with a buffalo classic in 45-70 is my idea of real sweet
J B I had trouble getting past your home page. I'll try again.
A few years ago I made a life size buffalo target from 3 sheets of plywood for my gun club. We painted it white. It was a lot of fun shooting the classic firearms at it.
____________________
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"There's mice living in my mattress."
"The outhouse is full."
"I smell something dead under the cabin."
http://buckmountainchateau.com
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