| Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 03:51 AM |
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Force_Recon_Marine
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At the top of the calculator page you can click the long rifle setting and it will go to 1000 yards at 100 yard increments. 
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 03:55 AM |
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62nd Post |
wyo300rum
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Cool. I'll check it out.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 04:00 AM |
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63rd Post |
billt
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Force_Recon_Marine wrote: The time of flight wouldnt be identical though. A 22-250 at 4000+f.p.s. or a .45 acp at 900 f.p.s.?
Very True. Where all the confusion comes in is time of flight. The lighter bullet starts out much faster, has a higher velocity which gives it a good "head start", but doesn't make up for mass which while having no effect on gravity, does negatively effect it in velocity retention. (Back to Newtons law that states objects in motion stay in motion unless effected by another force), in the case of bullets that would be wind and gravity. The heavier bullet, say a .338 cal. 300 gr. Sierra Matchking starting out slower, would hold it's velocity better over a long distance, giving it a shorter time of flight overall. Another comparison would be a Dodge Viper and a locomotive on both level road and track. Have both cross a line at the same time, but at different speeds. The Viper at 150 MPH, the locomotive at say 90 MPH. If both cut power as they crossed the line, which would reach the finish line 2 miles away? The locomotive would easily because even though it was heavier and slower, it retained it's velocity better because of it mass. But if they both went off a cliff at the same time, they would hit the ground together. Bill T.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 04:10 AM |
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64th Post |
Force_Recon_Marine
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You are killing me Bill.  I agree the train would out roll the viper. However, if you ran the train off of a cliff at 90 m.p.h. and the viper off at 150 m.p.h. The train would still drop faster.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 06:22 AM |
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camotruck
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nope they would drop t the same speed and hit the groung at the same time. The question is which one would land further from the clif?
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 03:33 PM |
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billt
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camotruck wrote: Nope they would drop t the same speed and hit the groung at the same time.
Bill T.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 03:59 PM |
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Force_Recon_Marine
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The actual explanation of why all objects accelerate at the same rate involves the concepts of force and mass. All objects free fall at the same rate of acceleration, regardless of their mass. The answer to the question (doesn't a more massive object accelerate at a greater rate than a less massive object?) is absolutely not! That is, absolutely not if we are considering the specific type of falling motion known as free-fall. The key word being free-fall. Bullets do not free fall. They are acting on the force of the push they receive from the gunpowder. Lighter bullets get a harder push.
Vectors are quantities which are fully described by both a magnitude and a direction. Not just free fall.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 04:21 PM |
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billt
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Force_Recon_Marine wrote: Bullets do not free fall. They are acting on the force of the push they receive from the gunpowder.
Yes, but as soon as they leave the gun barrel, gravity takes hold just the same as if they were standing perfectly still. They then "free fall" just as fast as if one rolled off the table while you were reloading. The rapid foward motion it has recieved from the powder charge pushing it foward does not counter act this in any way, shape, or form. Bill T.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 04:50 PM |
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69th Post |
wyo300rum
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I'm not Issac Newton or anything but I did do the test and the rubber band hit the floor the same time as everything heavier I dropped at the same time with it. Surprised me too. Bill , the only thing I don't beleive is that you said lighter bullets have a higher ballistic coeffient. I think the heavier, longer bullets do. Example, Barnes 130 gr. was .374 and 180 gr. was .528 if I remember the numbers right. The example of the train and Viper was perfect. Just like a heavy and light bullet. no better example. The only thing that could come into play would be aerodynamics. If something was more pointed as example and the other was flat faced, it could make a difference but I still beleive the heavier object would carry longer and have more kinetic energy. I'm going to have to get out my son's science books if you guys don't stop this....
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 05:39 PM |
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billt
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wyo300rum wrote: Bill , the only thing I don't beleive is that you said lighter bullets have a higher ballistic coeffient. I think the heavier, longer bullets do.
Your correct. I worded that wrong. Most bullets that are well shaped aerodynamicaly and posess a high sectional density, (i.e. long and "skinny") will have a very high B.C. If you examine most all loading manuals bullets of this type all have a much higher B.C. than lighter bullets of the same variety. Bill T.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22nd, 2007 06:21 PM |
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71st Post |
wyo300rum
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No problem. I've noticed/read that. Example Barnes bullets are long for their weight because being made of copper they have to be made longer to make up for the weight difference thus have a higher B.C. compared to another makers bullet in the same weight. Some like Hornady,Swift, etc. have better B.C.'s because of their nose design is better too I noticed. Thanks Bill ! Don
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 12:36 AM |
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klallen
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This has been an enjoyable string to read.
Let me say right off the bat, BILLT, I'm certainly not pulling you out as a target here. I value your opinion on things. You're just the one that brought up "time of flight" and it being more important then bullet weight and it has had me thinking ever since.
For me, "time of flight" tells me very little, in the grand scheme of things. I mean, yes. It's a common sense kind of thing if I were to say one bullet reaches 1000 yds. in 1.2 seconds and another gets to the same distance in 1.7 seconds, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt which cartridge is the flattest shooting. But really, what does this tell me? I know nothing of real importance ... i.e. how much flatter. I guess from a basic mathematical standpoint, I can't say "time of flight" is more important then bullet weight either. In the context of solving the "time of flight" calculation, bullet weight has got to be of higher importance, since it must be a known before the other can even be generated.
Which gets back to numbers and values that I see as being truely important to the topic of ballistics ... things mentioned in my first post. BC, velocity, bullet weight, distance of shot ... these are the crux of what I needed to establish meaningful rise and fall determinations. My ballistic program calculates "time of flight" numbers, but before this discussion, I didn't know that or cared to even look at them. They didn't show me anything specific.
I used my Warbird earlier in example. Pulling from it's numbers, it reaches 1K yds. with it's 180 gr. BT in 1.2 seconds and 1.3 seconds with the 240 gr. MK. We're talking split second differences in arrival time. While completely correct, I don't believe anyone is going to have an accurate understanding of drop differences between these two bullets using a "time of flight" value as a trajectory description. You can determine which is flattest, but again, by how much? I don't know many, except those heavily inundated with this stuff, that would understand that that 1 tenth of a second difference equates to a sizeable difference in drop ... some 2 feet, to be specific. Which, unlike the near simultanious arrival time of the two bullets, is not close, in my opinion.
I guess I agree with the notion that in it's simpliest form, knowing "time of flight" can suggest the flattest trajectory, but knowing "how much flatter" is what's important to me. You gotta have the basics (bullet weight, bc and velocity) to get full understanding.
Just some opinions I've been mulling over while reading and considering this topic. Chat with ya'll later. >> klallen
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 01:00 AM |
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73rd Post |
72coupe
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If light bullets were good for long range, why was the M16 not suitable for long range competition till the 69 & 80 grain bullets came out?
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 01:24 AM |
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camotruck
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 I'm not sure I understand this "time of filght " thing didn't we allready state that all objects fall at the same rate, take the same time to hit the ground, and hit the ground at the same time. Now if we talk about distance traveled durring that time of flight, that equates to speed and the faster will hit higher than the slower because it arrived at said target before the slower and GRAVITY had less time to pull it to the earth.
 Now the heaver bullet will hit with more kinetic energy because it has the ability to "store" the energy imparted on it by the powder burn. Because of its added weight it slows more slowly than the light bullet.
 How bout this, a running back is tring to get through the defensive line. A big back can push through because he's bigger and carries more kinetic energy. Now a smaller back is faster but when he hit a big D lineman he gets no penatration, or gets pushed around a bit, or at least gets slowed down more than the big man. the other force acting on our back is the turf he is running on. The turf acts the same or has the same effect in equal ways on both backs.
 So our bullet is our back big and heavy or smaller and lighter. there are TWO FORCES dragging our back down. Gravity, and atmosphere, the air, thick down in Mississippi and thin in Colarodo. Gravity acts the same on both bullets pulls them down the same THE SAME AT THE SAME TIME TOGETHER IN TANDEM. Now the atmosphere is different, like the D line a big bullet can push through the air like a big back can push through the D line but a small bullet gets pushed around and drug down more easily because it dosen't have the BULK needed to carry through. 
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 01:24 AM |
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camotruck
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I'm not sure I understand this "time of filght " thing didn't we allready state that all objects fall at the same rate, take the same time to hit the ground, and hit the ground at the same time. Now if we talk about distance traveled durring that time of flight, that equates to speed and the faster will hit higher than the slower because it arrived at said target before the slower and GRAVITY had less time to pull it to the earth.
Now the heaver bullet will hit with more kinetic energy because it has the ability to "store" the energy imparted on it by the powder burn. Because of its added weight it slows more slowly than the light bullet.
How bout this, a running back is tring to get through the defensive line. A big back can push through because he's bigger and carries more kinetic energy. Now a smaller back is faster but when he hit a big D lineman he gets no penatration, or gets pushed around a bit, or at least gets slowed down more than the big man. the other force acting on our back is the turf he is running on. The turf acts the same or has the same effect in equal ways on both backs.
So our bullet is our back big and heavy or smaller and lighter. there are TWO FORCES dragging our back down. Gravity, and atmosphere, the air, thick down in Mississippi and thin in Colarodo. Gravity acts the same on both bullets pulls them down the same THE SAME AT THE SAME TIME TOGETHER IN TANDEM. Now the atmosphere is different, like the D line a big bullet can push through the air like a big back can push through the D line but a small bullet gets pushed around and drug down more easily because it dosen't have the BULK needed to carry through.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 01:29 AM |
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 01:36 AM |
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klallen
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72COUPE, I don't know how may schools of thought we have going on this, but for me, I do not believe for a second that a light, low BC bullet is the way to go for consistent, extreme range success. >> klallen
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 03:00 AM |
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72coupe
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I know, the maximum range of a 150 grain 30-06 traveling at 2800 fps is considered to be 18000 feet. The maximum range of 1,400,000 grain 8 inch howitzer projectile traveling at 2800 fps is considered to be 84,480 feet.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 04:19 AM |
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camotruck
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If you want to shoot far get a big honkin gun and shoot a big honking, heavy, long, sleek bullet.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23rd, 2007 01:05 PM |
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Force_Recon_Marine
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klallen wrote: 72COUPE, I don't know how may schools of thought we have going on this, but for me, I do not believe for a second that a light, low BC bullet is the way to go for consistent, extreme range success. >> klallen
The lighter bullet will not be as consistent by any means. Being lighter it is more affected by outside forces. But it still drops less.
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Oh thank GOD i thought I lost it