| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 12:58 AM |
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Force_Recon_Marine
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OK, We are getting conflicting data. What are your opinions on bullet drop at long ranges. Does lighter or heavier drop less???
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 01:02 AM |
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sdb777
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Heavier projectiles will drop less, unless the BC and velocity is so far out of whack that it becomes apples verses oranges. Be back in a few with data/charts/maybe a picture. I'm old and slow, so I'll drop at long distances.....
Scott (math is fun) B
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 01:07 AM |
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Force_Recon_Marine
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I was just wondering. It just seems like simple physics. I can throw a 15 lb bowling ball X yards. I can throw a 10 lb bowling ball this many yards because it is lighter. Lighter bullets also use more powder for a harder push.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 01:26 AM |
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sdb777
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Okay, took a round that I know you will like. The 50BMG!!! Plugged in some simple numbers right off the ammoguide reloading chart. For the first chart, you see I used the Lapua 800gr bullet at 2369fps. At 1,000 yards the bullets has slowed to 1,589.6fps and dropped 336.2 inches.
The next chart shows a different bullet, a Hornady's 750gr AMAX at the same 2369fps. At 1,000 yards the bullet has slowed to 1634.9fps and dropped 328.3 inches.
Is this comparison equal? No, the Lapua is ballistically superior to the Hornady. If you compare two unequal types of projectile, the outcome is very different. Math is fun, but physics ROCK! Especially with a 50!
Scott (I'll show a different one next) B
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 01:38 AM |
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sdb777
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Worked the results to show apples vs. oranges!
Used the .308WannaBe(don't bother look, it doesn't exist). First chart shows a Barnes 150gr TripleShock-XBoattail at 3400fps.
Next we have a Berger 185VLD at the same velocity! Cool cartridge? Yup...amazing!
What happened? The heavier bullet shot at the same velocity dropped less then the lighter bullet at the same velocity....how? The heavier projectile is ballistically better then the lighter bullet.
You want to make the lighter bullet faster? We can do that too.....
Scott (same same) B
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 01:54 AM |
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sdb777
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Apples and oranges, equalized...somewhat.
Using the same mystery .308WannaBe(still doesn't exist...stop looking for it). Same bullets, but I slowed the Berger 185gr VLD down....kind of simulating real world(not really).
Light/fast:
Heavy/slow:
So what the heck just happened? The slower(ballistically superior projectile) over took the faster(okay projectile) and didn't drop as much....and retained twice as much energy....physics.
Sorry to turn this topic into a physics lesson....but do you see where heavier projectiles become better at longrange flight....especially when the bullet is designed better then it's lighter, same caliber projectile.
Scott (Giving the topic back now!) B
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 03:16 AM |
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Force_Recon_Marine
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I like your commitment to detail... I agree that a bullet with a better bc will fly farther and flatter. But With equal bc bullets. Barnes 150 vs Barnes 180. Or a 150 A-Max verses a 180 A-Max. Apples to apples, the lighter faster bullet will win. The ballistic coefficiant will be near the same. Just like the 40, 50, and 55 V-Max Hornady. I posted those on the other thread. The shooter bible has the ballistics for nearly everything from .17 Remington to the .470 Nitro Express. Factory loads compared side by side. Same brand, same style, different weight. The heavier bullet always dropped faster. That is what I was going by but it makes sense. Just gives us something to talk about.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 03:50 AM |
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klallen
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I love this ballistics stuff. Consider my 7.82 (.308) Warbird and a 125 gr. Ballistic Tip (4000 fps ; .373 BC), 180 gr. Ballistic Tip (3500 fps ; .516 BC) and the 240 gr. Sierra MK (3000 fps ; .712 BC). With a 500 yd. zero, the 125 gr. bullet gets there with around a 9.8" rise. The 180 gr. BT, 11.4". The 240 gr. MK, 14.6". From that 500 yd. equal point, the 125 gr. and 180 gr. BT have darn near the same drop, 138" (+/- .1") at 1000 yds. The MK drops 158" from 500 yds. out to that same 1000 yd. mark. When you consider the extremes in bullet weight and if trajectory is your only consideration, out to 1000 yds. the 125 gr. BT has a 25" flatter trajectory then the heavy MK. This is one of those examples where sheer brute force can translate into extreme velocities and that, even with a poor BC, can drive a bullet to very impressive trajectories. But really, at extreme ranges trajectory really don't mean all that much. At the extremes, you're looking to keep bullets super sonic. Period. Once it falls below that barrier, stability becomes moot. That's where BC really shines. At my altitude, the 125 gr. BT dips around the speed of sound at 1300 yds. As it reaches this point, then drops below, instability will make predictible shot placement all but impossible. The 180 gr. BT stretches that level of predictibility out to 1600 yds. The 240 gr. MK even farther ... 1850 yds. I think we'll all conceed that wind will obviously play a dramatic roll in predictibility as well but on the context of pure trajectory, we'll play with the understanding that we're in the field on a pristine, windless day (not that I've ever seen one of these up here in MT, but I digress). That's why I choose a big .338 cartridge for my 2000 yd. varminter. Lots of things out there have a flatter trajectory, but keeping the bullet above the speed of sound at this range is the trick. Later. >> klallen
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 04:26 AM |
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Force_Recon_Marine
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Hey klallen, I want to go shoot with you one day. I could learn more watching you in a day than I may ever learn on my own. 
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 05:00 PM |
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wyo300rum
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Hey Force, I tried my best to stay out of this but just at a hunting standpoint, When I first started reloading for my 300 RUM four years ago. (been reloading over 30 yrs.) I started with 150 gr. bullets. They were screamin' through the chrono with max loads around 3650 fps.. I thought awesome ! This will be a flat shootin' SOB. Well here comes deer season. Those Hornady Interbonds, Nosler Accubonds, Swift Scirrocos,etc. blew all to hell and ruined allot of meat at high velocities. I skipped over 165 grainers and started loading and testing 180 gr. bullets. Found the Swift Scirrocos and Barnes TSX fairly accurate. They had good B.C. too. and they didn't blow all to hell at 3300 fps. My mind set changed. I figured I would rather have more retained velocity which equals more muzzle energy, kinetic energy at long ranges. Other words a 180 gr versus a 150gr. at 500 yds. is going to hit harder and retain more weight at that range. Especially Barnes bullets when it come to weight retention. I'm sure if I fired a 150 gr at 3300 fps. , the same as the 180 gr. , the 150 gr. would drop off in velocity and inches faster. I think of it this way. Which would hit harder, drop a 10lb rock of your roof onto your enemys head or a 5 lb ? I bet the 10 lb. would fall faster too. Don't ask why I used that example. I'm not a phyics or balistics exspert. Just think in practical hunting terms and experiance. Some of you guys are experts and I love to read your posts and entertaining too ! Force, go do some testing at 1000 yds on them armadillos with your .50 cal. ! Last edited on Sat Mar 10th, 2007 05:01 PM by wyo300rum
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 05:06 PM |
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wyo300rum
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Barebackpat, waitin for you to jump in !
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 06:04 PM |
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sdb777
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The speed for a 10lb rock being dropped and a 5lb rock being dropped are going to be the same due to gravity being 32feet per second per second. If dropped at the exact same time from a 100 story tall building, both objects would hit the ground exactly at the same time.
Scott (those dang physics) B
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 06:15 PM |
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Force_Recon_Marine
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Unless one rock was more aerodynamic.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 06:20 PM |
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sdb777
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Force_Recon_Marine wrote: Unless one rock was more aerodynamic.
I wouldn't want to get hit on the head with either! Aerodynamic or otherwise.... Would a penny dropped from the Empire State Building kill someone?
Scott (ouch, I wanted my change back) B
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 06:35 PM |
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Force_Recon_Marine
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Nope. It cant reach enough velocity.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 07:24 PM |
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billt
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A good simple thing to remember in all of this, is time of flight to the target equals drop, not bullet weight. A lighter bullet will have a higher muzzle velocity, but will bleed it off faster, allowing the heavier bullet to over take it further downrange. The longer the time of flight, the further the drop, regardless of the bullets weight. As Buzz Aldrin proved when he was standing on the Moon, a feather and a rock, dropped at the exact same time, will hit the ground at the same time. This is the reason most long range shooters prefer heavier bullets. They retain their velocity much better well downrange, (1,000+ yards.) A heavier bullet has other advantages as well, like better wind resistance. There has been a lot of "theorizing" about a bullet actually "flying". But most tests conclude a bullet has, and produces no aerodynamic "lift" like an airplane does. Bill T.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10th, 2007 10:46 PM |
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wyo300rum
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Alright then, I knew I shouldn't have gotten into this.  All eyes got to say is I do mostly big game hunting and eyes prefer to have a little heavier bullet for more energy, penetration and ....I won't say it. Thanks for enlightening me on the gravity/rock thing. Like I said, I never took physics. I have to go find an aerodynamic rock now. Later (good to hear from you again billt) Last edited on Sat Mar 10th, 2007 10:47 PM by wyo300rum
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2007 10:51 PM |
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camotruck
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ok the 10 lb rock and the 5 lb rock hit the ground at the same time and at the same speed but the 10 lb'r hits harder because of its weight.
Like newton said an object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted opon by an outside force. Our outside force is gravity and a bullet dropped from 3 ft high and a bullet fired from a gun at the same 3 ft hit the ground at the same time. In order to get the pill out there futher it needs to go faster because gravity is going to pull it down at the same rate no matter what speed it is launched.
now the weight comes in. The hevier pill can push through the air (the force acting agianst it) better because its heavier. (Truck) Whereas the lighter pill gets pushed around easier, and the drag from air resistance slows it down more easily. (car)
bc1.lbl.gov/CBP_pages/educational/WoB/cycle1p04a.htm
This is a really big deal in bow hunting to get a shaft to shoot flatter you needed more draw weight, a longer draw length, or a lighter arrow. Most guys were already drawing more than they should be, I didnt know anyone that was able to grow longer arms,so most guys started shedding weight on their arrow and bow string. The lighter string got going faster transfering more energy to the arrow but the lighter arrows couldent store the energy and it was "used up" as noise as it was transfred from the string to to bow. The lighter arrows lacked the weight to store the energy and lacked kinetic energy to penitrate bone or heavy mussle mass, another force acting on the projectile.
Now, My question is this. If I want to hunt pronghorn, and my shots will be 200- 500 yds. do I send a 90gr. .257 pill @ 3700 fps. , a 130 gr. .277 pill @ 3300 fps or a 180gr. .308 pill @ 3000 fps. Which one will kill him the deadest.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12th, 2007 01:05 AM |
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sdb777
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camotruck wrote:
Now, My question is this. If I want to hunt pronghorn, and my shots will be 200- 500 yds. do I send a 90gr. .257 pill @ 3700 fps. , a 130 gr. .277 pill @ 3300 fps or a 180gr. .308 pill @ 3000 fps. Which one will kill him the deadest.
If you hunt Pronghorn in Maryland, your at the zoo, and won't need a rifle...just use the feeder that takes the quarters and when they get close enough........grab their heads and give 'em a twist.
Seriously though, all the caliber bullets you listed will do the job. If you know the drop of each bullet fired, and they are of adequate quality to do the required task. Dead is still dead no matter what gets them dead, but I return the volley back to you....Which bullets will require the least amount of tracking? And what was the pronghorn eating the night before?
Scott (did you get it? the zoo....) B
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12th, 2007 01:22 AM |
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camotruck
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I don't believe in zoos I think its cruel to cage up animals.
I think the 90gr. sierra HPBT Gameking should do the job nicely. the location is YTBD probally Montana. I wanted to do ND but non residents can't get a rifle tag.
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