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overbore
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Posted: 14 October 2008 05:05 PM |
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Gentlemen, after 50 + years of handloading I discovered something totally unexpected. I have a Dillon carbide size die in 7.62 and when the cases are checked with a case gage after resizing all is well. Howevver, I have a procedure of lubing and sizing a group of cases, about 500, in one batch then hand priming them individuclly and then putting them in my 550 tool for powder, seating and crimping. Yes I know it is slower but I want any prmer problems to be out in the open where I can see and feel them. Yes, after many thousands I finally loded one primer backwards ( Forster priming tool )
With all of that as a preface, we now add the fact that my last batch has been sitting about 45 days after sizing because of other demands on my time. I then went to resume my safe but slow process but then find my cases hanging up in the seater die and the bullets sliding into the cases -deeply.  My head scratching and checking of dimensions has turned up the confirmation of brass spring back over time as the once sized cases will not NOW go into the case gage without a push AND the necks have also opened up.
Siince I use a Lee crimp die for semi-auto loads there has been no spring back of loaded rounds. My time lines have now changed so that I will resize, reprime then finish reloading in smaller batches of 100.
Just a friendly heads up and reminder that we are always learning something new.
Cordially, Overbore
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saddlesore
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 6 February 2005 |
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Posted: 14 October 2008 06:17 PM |
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| Something is fishy here. Not saying there is not a problem,but if brass springs back, would not bullets seated in brass move around after they sit around for awhile? What is the difference in brass without bullets seated and brass with bullets?
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overbore
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Posted: 14 October 2008 06:43 PM |
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I did see somewhere a test confirming the dimesnsion changes bu to me this was a jaw dropper. Perhaps since my GI brass was stretched in mg fire the spring back was increased????? Overbore
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miestro_jerry
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Posted: 15 October 2008 04:25 AM |
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With all metals these is some "spring" to them when sized or reshaped, except I never had this happen to me. I load on basically the same press, I use a RCBS die for the sizer. The rest is either Dillon or RCBS or Lyman Or Lee.
Have you checked you Mic's out?
Jerry
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Paul Tummers
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Posted: 15 October 2008 09:50 AM |
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Perhaps I am thinking totally the wrong way around, but I think, I can assume, the unfired case, manufactured and "seasoned"for some time at the factory- and retailer's store house is the starting point.
After firing there should be some memory in the metal from the previous situation-unfired-, so up to me, a case should change dimensions the other way around- back to factory dimensions.
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overbore
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Posted: 18 October 2008 12:36 AM |
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Since I have been on Benchrest Shooting since 04 I inquired there also and found verifications of my findings with the consensus thinking that since my once fired GI brass was mg fired with max chamber dimensions then allowed to remain dirty and stretched for years before resizing, etc. , the brass wanted to relax / return to its "memorized" dimensions. The group suggestions was to resize and reload in one day as real serious benchresters have documented significnat case change dimensions that are beyond our intent here. summary: it happens; it can be minimized and yes I checked all dimensions, Jerry, thx.
Overbore
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Paul Tummers
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Posted: 18 October 2008 01:01 AM |
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overbore schreef: Since I have been on Benchrest Shooting since 04 I inquired there also and found verifications of my findings with the consensus thinking that since my once fired GI brass was mg fired with max chamber dimensions then allowed to remain dirty and stretched for years before resizing, etc. , the brass wanted to relax / return to its "memorized" dimensions. The group suggestions was to resize and reload in one day as real serious benchresters have documented significnat case change dimensions that are beyond our intent here. summary: it happens; it can be minimized and yes I checked all dimensions, Jerry, thx.
Overbore
Hi Overbore,
What is the idea behind the resizing/reloading the same day?
If the brass works that way, it will not stopped doing so with a bullet in its neck, I think.
Regards,
Paul
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overbore
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Posted: 18 October 2008 02:28 AM |
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Paul, for accuracy shooting, a change in neck tension on the bullet has been documented with actual numbers. Go to http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56563 and read all the expert opinions and data. Cordially, Overbore
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Paul Tummers
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Posted: 18 October 2008 02:45 PM |
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overbore schreef: Paul, for accuracy shooting, a change in neck tension on the bullet has been documented with actual numbers. Go to http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56563 and read all the expert opinions and data. Cordially, Overbore
Hi Overbore,
An interesting discussion indeed, although I am not sure I do like the attitude towards it from one of the people of the "Discussion Panel".
I did not know when I answered in this posting, your brass has been once fired from a MG, This "abuse" in a very generous dimensioned chamber will overrule the "memory" as set by manufacturing stress for sure.
I agree, it all has to do with intra-molucair space, One can surely speak of brass molecules, because brass is an alloy which means there will be a atomic bonding between zinc and copper, and processing of the cases in a die does change this space which causes stress and a temporally increase of molecular movement, which indeed will lead to a partial return to the previous situation, but will settle with time for almost 100%.
If you use a crimping die, you make a bend in the end of the neck,the result being a mouth diameter so much smaller than the neck diameter, that the relieve of tension never will be discovered.
I think, the only way to overcome the problem will be sizing to an amount that the willing return to the old situation of the metal will be compensated.
Kind Regards,
Paul.
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overbore
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Posted: 18 October 2008 05:00 PM |
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Paul, I have juest come up from my loading bench and find your kind reply. Yes, I do use a Lee crimp for gas gun loads but my tests with a0.0001" runout gage show the bullet seating alignment is thrown off by the Lee crimp die. For match shooting and BR uses I prefer the Redding bushing seater dies. The rounds are then sorted by total runout. Cordially, Overbore
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Paul Tummers
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Posted: 18 October 2008 06:45 PM |
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The only experience I have with a die with bushings is with my Wilson hand dies.
Suppose,you take a somewhat smaller sized bushing, would it cure your problem without having to accept more run-out?
I only have experience with gas-operated rifles from my time in the army, way back, I only remember, the empty cases were bulged a lot more as I was used to see on the cases of the hunting rifles my late father owned.
The chambers of those FAL-rifles must have been of generous dimensions too.
I did not reload at that time,started some years later, but upon recalling the way those cases did look, I am asking myself; does the exta run-out caused by the Lee die really count?
The die which produces ammo with the least run-out for my .308W. is a Lee Collet die with a shaft turned down 0.1 mm in my little lathe.
Kind Regards,
Paul.
Last edited on 18 October 2008 06:46 PM by Paul Tummers
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overbore
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Posted: 18 October 2008 08:48 PM |
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Paul, back in the mid 1960's I became friends with Chet Brown, ( Brown Precision ) who co-pioneereed fiberglas stocks with another man. They made a run-out device to check total bullet runout ans set standars for how much for what purpose, I will find the data and send it along in due course.
As to you Lee, I think th answer for your accuracy is in your turning procedure whih praobably took out the errors. Well done. Cordially, Overbore
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Paul Tummers
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Posted: 18 October 2008 11:44 PM |
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The Lee Collet die is a miraculous clever designed tool in my opinion, just a pity, Lee manufactures this wonderful thing to their own standard.I did not believe it is so good, but got curious about it and ordered one, and did some finishing on it Lee has not done.
I would not have a problem, paying 4 times the price for a similar concept, manufactured by Redding or Forster, and with a depriming pin wich can be changed.
The 0.1 mm did not contribute to concentricity, the shaft was straight already and the collet only can transfer its force at the outside of the case and center the shaft.
I need the extra tension because the ammo I load with the die is used for wild boar hunting and those animals are known to get upon you if there is a chance, when not shot lethal, and then I cannot use any trouble with cycling a new round into the chamber.
Kind Regards,
Paul.
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overbore
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Posted: 19 October 2008 02:00 AM |
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Paul, With the adjustable / chang in busing sizes, I like to use 0.003" smaller that the loaded OD as Is use moly coated bullets for my match and target shooting. I will find the article and copy it for you. Boar shooting? Sounds like an interesting sport that will teach one in short order the need of shot placement. What type of reticle do you use or are you an iron sight man? Cordially, G
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Paul Tummers
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Posted: 19 October 2008 08:54 AM |
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Hi Overbore,
Thank you, I look forward to the article!
The scope is a Zeiss classic Diavari 3-12 x 56 with an illuminated reticle no 44.
The rifle is a Sauer 202 Forest in .308, special order with a steel receiver instead the standard alluminium receiver, the mount is an EAW mount which permits me to take the scope off without sighting in or checking for changes in point of impact.
I wish, I still had the eyesight I used to have when 10 years younger, no iron sights for me anymore, and since this kind of hunting is done mostly with help of the moon-light, I really need the big scope.
Kind Regards,
PaUL.
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overbore
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Posted: 19 October 2008 05:01 PM |
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Paul, I strongly approve of your illuminated reticle- great chocie. What bullet are you using? I am posting now a rifle tilt /cant article since I just finished mounting a level on my son's rifle. I shoud find the runout article today and will post it.
Cordially, G
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Paul Tummers
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Posted: 19 October 2008 09:31 PM |
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overbore schreef: Paul, I strongly approve of your illuminated reticle- great chocie. What bullet are you using? I am posting now a rifle tilt /cant article since I just finished mounting a level on my son's rifle. I shoud find the runout article today and will post it.
Cordially, G
I use the Nosler Accubond in 165 grain, Nosler made an exellent bullet !
I prefer the Accubond over the Partition, which is an old fashioned H-mantle basically.
The Accubond works well on a roe deer and also on a boar of 4 times the weight of a roe deer and is very accurate.
Kind Regards,
Paul.
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overbore
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Posted: 19 October 2008 10:01 PM |
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Paul, my son is hunting Mule Deer in Wyoming at this moment and he is using Acubonds just like you. I did post the runout data today along with scope tilt data so if you look at he rilfe section you will find the long runout article. Cordially, G
Last edited on 19 October 2008 10:01 PM by overbore
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