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64Impala
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| Joined: | 11 January 2008 |
| Location: | Brooklyn, Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 37 |
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Posted: 21 October 2008 03:42 AM |
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Hi Guys -
As I mentioned in another post, I finally got my equipment and I am just about ready to get started. I've spend the last couple of nights cleaning some 5.56 brass (PRIVI) using my zip trim and some red scotch brite (loading for an AR-15). I'd like a tumbler, but since I'm just getting started, I figure it would be good to do each cartridge by hand to get into the habbit of inspecting and looking for bad cases. I've clean around 250 or so (zip trim is getting a workout already) and I'm finding some "gouges" or something on nearly 100% of the cleaned cases. These marks are all in the same area relative to the end of the case and the shoulder. The below link will take you to a picture of what I'm seeing. Its fairly large (700K). I was trying to get good resolution. Apologies in advance to the dial-up guys.
https://64impala.startlogic.com/IMG_1788.JPG
These marks (about 1/2 between the case mouth and shoulder) look like tool marks of some sort (either from mfg or from my rifle) since they are almost the same size/shape and in the same general area on every cartridge. I just want to make sure that what I'm seeing isn't the start of a split case and that these are ok to reload. Everything that I've read about PRIVI brass is that its quite good and reloads well.
So, I then started to resize a few of these pieces. Right now, I'm checking 100% of the cases in the headspace gage to make sure I'm setting the shoulder back correctly. If I don't apply just about the same amount of pressure at the end of the stroke each time, the brass is just touch out of spec and I have to hit it again. Every once in a while, I'll get a piece of brass which gets hung up going into the gage at the rim, almost like its oversized or out of round. Most of the time I can get it to snap into the gage with a little pressure and a round punch to get it out of the gage. But I have had one or two that I physically can't get into the gage due to the rim. I've checked the rim for burrs etc and can't see anything out of the originary. What could I be doing on my resizing that could be causing this?
I then trimmed some cases to 1.75", chamfered in and out and cleaned the primer pocket. Is there any benefit to cleaning the primer pocket or am I wasting my time?
I've got some Hornady 55 gr FMJBT that I'm going to be using. The Hornady manual states a C.O.L of 2.200. If I set my bullet seater to that COL, the case mouth is past the cannalure of the bullet. If I set the bullet seater to 2.222, I have the case mouth almost dead nuts in the center of the cannalure. My PRIVI ammunition runs 2.245 - 2.254 depending on the round. Is being over the COL .022" going to be an issue? The only way I could get something that short and still be able to use the cannalure for the crimp, would be to trim the case length down to 1.730 or so which would be to short. Am I doing something wrong here or am I getting worked up over nothing... I just want to be safe.
FINALLY (yeah, this is a long post) - I set my crimp and made 10 dummy rounds (no primer or powder). My lee turret is making round +/- .002 in COL which is WAY better than the PRIVI so I'm pretty happy about that. I cycled the dummy rounds thru my AR-15 five time and remeasured the rounds each time and and they didn't change in length so I think I've got the crimp good to go. I set the crimp to what was recomended by lee (touch the shell holder plus 1/2 turn).
If anyone can give me some advice on the above stuff, I'd really appreciate it. I've got more questions coming regarding my powder (RAMSHOT TAC) and my primers, but I'll save that 'till later. Thanks in advance...
Joe
Last edited on 21 October 2008 03:53 AM by 64Impala
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Blackie
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| Joined: | 23 August 2008 |
| Location: | Birkdale, Australia |
| Posts: | 25 |
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Posted: 21 October 2008 11:05 AM |
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Hi Joe, I can't answer all your questions, but the one on the mark on your cases looks very much like the mark I get on my .308 win cases when fired from my Model 70. I looked into it with a gunsmith and we found it to be a small pit in the chamber, but it has no effect on the accuracy or when I reload. It just doesn't look all that good. I have reloaded the cases about 8 times and there hasn't been any split developing in the area of the mark but it makes it easy to count the number of times it has been reloaded. The marks are rarely in the exact same place. I hope this helps,
Ian 
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Force_Recon_Marine
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| Joined: | 7 November 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
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Posted: 27 October 2008 04:08 AM |
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Did you shoot all of this ammo out of your rifle? If so, What kind of rifle is it? Some rifles are hard on brass. I had an HK 308 that was rough on brass and I have heard that Mini-14's would chew it up almost to the point you couldnt use it again. Most likely your rifle is marking the brass.
As far as your primer pockets, I clean mine if they look dirty. If they dont have any residue or buildup then I wouldnt worry about it. 
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64Impala
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 11 January 2008 |
| Location: | Brooklyn, Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 37 |
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Posted: 27 October 2008 02:36 PM |
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This brass was shot out of my AR-15. I found a post on the Arfcom where someone else had similar marks on their brass. The concensus was they were being caused from the locking lugs on the barrel extension. The marks were a non-issue in terms of reloading the brass.
I just wanted to make sure that what I was seeing wasn't the start of a neck split.
The one thing I did notice, as I'm sorting through my polished cases, is that some of the brass appears to have signs of overpressure. Some of the primer appear (in my limited experience) to be flattened and there is a shiney spot on the head of the case, maybe 1/4" long and .060-.080 wide, starting from the edge of the rim and going towards the primer cup.
I'll try to take a couple of pictures tonight and see what you guys think. This is factory ammo (supposed mil spec). Hopefully I'm just being paranoid. I've got almost 3K of the stuff in my basement! 
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runfiverun
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 9 February 2008 |
| Location: | Soda Springs, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 73 |
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Posted: 28 October 2008 12:41 AM |
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your ar is gonna be hard on brass it will leave marks all over the place.
the rims will be bent, your headstamp area will be marked up.
your cases will be stretched. just the way it is with semi-s.
you will have dents.......
you can control some of these problems with your powder burn rate.
and not trying for maximum loads, it is easier on your rifle too.
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64Impala
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| Joined: | 11 January 2008 |
| Location: | Brooklyn, Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 37 |
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Posted: 28 October 2008 03:30 AM |
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Ok, well, I thought I was ready to start loading a few rounds, but now I'm starting to question my FL resizing technique/die setup. Please bear with me... I'm an engineer and a paranoid sucker to boot  . I just want to make sure I'm doing this stuff right and safe.
I'm using the Lee FL .223 die, an L.E. Wilson headspace gage and imperial lube. When I set my die up, I kissed the die to the shell holder, turned it 1/3 more, lubed up a case and let it rip. I put the case in the gage, the head of the case was above the upper ledge, so I turn the die in a little bit more. Check the case again and it looked good. I tighted everything up and started resizing, checking 100% of the cases just to verify I'm doing everything consistantly until I get the "feel" for it.
When I check the case with the gage, I'm using a 6" SS scale and running the scale (edge down) along the top surface of the gage (keeping it flat to the surface). If the point of the scale hit the rim of the case, its was to high and I resized it. I check the low side the same way.
What I am finding now, is 1/2 of the case will be below the upper surface, the other half will not. Resizing doesn't seem to be fixing it, so I thought maybe my die backed out, so I turned it in a little bit. No change. I turn in it some more and again, no change, in fact, now the shellplate is leaving a mark on the head of the case and deforming it to the point that it won't fit into the case gage (plus I'm way out of adjustment according too the lee instructions). So I back everything out, reset to the instructions and try again. Same problem. Part of the case is high, part is ok, and rotating the case gives me different results.
If I rotate the case so the headstamp and the caliber stamp are next to the high side of the gage, usually the headstamp side will pass and the caliber side will fail. If I rotate 90° so the headstamp and caliber stamp are next to the low side of the gage, then the case "passes". The scale doesn't hit the rim on the high side and hits the rim on the low side. Its not above the high side by much, maybe a .001-.002. Just enough that I can feel the scale skip over the rim. If I put the scale across the head of the case, the stamping and primer crimp seem to interfere with the scale and artifically raises the scale off the gage.
I've got a hornady lock-n-load headspace gage kit. So, I figure I'll check my setup with that. I attach the gage with appropriate bushing in my caliper, put a fire-formed case in the gage, measure it (rotating it around to get longest length) and zero it out. I lube and resize the case and put it back in the gage. My measurment is around .003-.004 shorter, which according to the instructions is just about right (.002-.003 on the instructions). IF I put that case into the fixed gage, I still have a case which technically doesn't pass, depending on the case orientation in the gage.
To the meat of the issue, what the heck am I doing wrong? I've tried changing the die setup, more lube, less lube, sizing speed, sizing a case multiple times (rotating 30-40 degrees each time), amount of force at the end of the stroke.
And on top of that, I pulled the decapping pin right out of the neck sizer. In attempting to pull the pin out of the case, the pin went flying and now I'm SOL.  My reloading adventure is not off to a stellar start.
Sorry for the long post. As always, any help/advice is GREATLY appreciated.
Joe
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runfiverun
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 9 February 2008 |
| Location: | Soda Springs, Idaho USA |
| Posts: | 73 |
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Posted: 28 October 2008 09:49 PM |
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after about the second attempt at using lee dies for my 223 they went out the garage door and into the pasture.
have you tried these in your rifle???????? that is what really matters.
i have a 7.65 arg. die set that i can only use for one rifle it wont size them small enough for the other 2, had to buy another die set, after buying the red ones first.
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Timberghozt
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| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Salado, Texas USA |
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Posted: 29 October 2008 01:41 AM |
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Joe,sorry you are having a rough start.
Do you know an experienced handloader?
Most handloaders are good folks and would be more than happy to help ya and show you the ropes..
You are actually off to a good start though
ask your questions here,we`ve helped many ,many new handloaders get started
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Charley
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| Joined: | 9 September 2005 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
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Posted: 29 October 2008 03:17 AM |
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runfiverun wrote: after about the second attempt at using lee dies for my 223 they went out the garage door and into the pasture.
have you tried these in your rifle???????? that is what really matters.
i have a 7.65 arg. die set that i can only use for one rifle it wont size them small enough for the other 2, had to buy another die set, after buying the red ones first.
Two differnt chamber specs on the 7.65, as I understand it. My Lee dies won't push the shoulder back far enough to chamber in an 1891, but the cases chamber easily in a 1909 carbine.
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64Impala
HB Full Member
| Joined: | 11 January 2008 |
| Location: | Brooklyn, Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 37 |
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Posted: 29 October 2008 03:09 PM |
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Hi Guys -
I appreciate the help. Unfortunately, I don't have anyone local that I can partner up with. I live out in the sticks, so I'm learning "remotely" I have not yet tried to fire these off in my rifle. I made up 10 rounds last week (before I found my little "sizing problem"). My recipe was:
Privi Brass (07)
CCI small rifle primers (#400)
Ramshot TAC (21.5 gr)
55 gr Hornady FMJBT
I'm actually a little hesitant to touch these off now, because I'm worried maybe I didn't set my dies correctly and my shoulder isn't pushed back far enough. After a little more cross-referencing, I'm actually about a grain light on my starting point on the powder. My dummy rounds look liked they chambered, but I didn't inspect the bolt very closely so I don't know for sure if they chambered.
I've got some American Eagle (federal brass, which is supposed junk) that I think I'll be experimenting on tonight. I'm going to pull the neck sizer out of the die (since the decapping pin is AWOL) to see if my results improve. If my case issue goes away when putting into the gage, then I've at least narrowed it down. Maybe I'm not putting enough or uneven amounts of lube around the case mouth and the neck sizer is pulling the shoulder back out of spec when I pull the case from the die.
Does setting the shoulder back .003-.004 sound about right for a gas-gun? Maybe I'm making this more difficult than it needs to be. My wife tells me that all the time, its a curse I guess...
RUNFIVERUN - what dies are you currently using? Lee seems to have pretty good reviews for their dies, but I'm willing to try anything at least once. (twice if its lots of fun  )
thanks for the help!!
Joe
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ohiococonut
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| Joined: | 10 April 2007 |
| Location: | Central, Ohio USA |
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Posted: 30 October 2008 05:19 AM |
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Joe, I work with engineers day in and day out and you really ARE making this more complicated than it is. It's not an undesirable trait but it's not conducive to someone starting out reloading with no one to actually show you. As they say, it is a controlled explosion but it's not rocket science The cases are not perfect and there's nothing you can do about it. I've loaded approx. 50 different calibers and never used a case gage and don't ever intend to, the chamber is my gage.
The mark on the neck is from the chamber lugs and as one poster noted AR's are notorious for banging up brass. I'd suggest using Hornadys One Shot spray lube since you run the risk of leaving some sizing lube in the case or possibly even denting a shoulder or two using Imperial. And I can't believe the expander ball is pulling the shoulder back out that much if you're using Imperial unless the die is junk, it just doesn't take that much lube.
Set your die according to the manufacturers recommendation (they're basically all the same). Find a case that won't chamber and size it, if it chambers, the die is set. Leave the case gage on the shelf, it'll drive you crazy. The key is you need to be consistent, but not to the point of being anal about every .001". And I mean that in a respectful professional way. Brass is very malleable and there are always going to be inconsistencies. Stop rotating the brass in the press and don't worry about the rim diameter, it varies. Once the die is set size several cases, only once since repeated sizing only overworks the brass, and check them looking for an average. Be consistent. As long as they chamber you're good to go.
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64Impala
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| Joined: | 11 January 2008 |
| Location: | Brooklyn, Wisconsin USA |
| Posts: | 37 |
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Posted: 30 October 2008 02:04 PM |
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Hi Guys -
Thanks for the help. I went back to the press last night and started experimenting with some "junk" brass. It was .223 UMC. The fired brass measured 1.737. HOLY SHORT BRASS Batman.
The first thing I did was change my press handle. My original setup the handle finished the stroke maybe 20-25° short of being vertical. Now my handle is more of less parallel with the floor at the end of the stroke. I think this setup give me more consistancy with my pressure and speed, and ensure that I actually do a full stroke.
I reset my die back to the lee instructions, and pulled the neck sizer out of the die and sized a few cases and they were all right on the money. Length differences between fired and resized were .003-.004. I didn't put any any lube on the shoulder (not sure if this made a difference or not.)
I put the neck sizer back in, with extra attention to lubing the case mouth and these cases looked good as well.
So, I think my problem was a combination of not enough lube in the neck and my press setup. I know this is a hard thing to describe, but how much force should I feel when the neck expander pulls out of the case mouth?
Prior to my experiment to me it felt like the expander would get hung up, and I would have to increase my pressure to continue the stroke. Now, with the additional lube, I don't get that "hang pressure".
Is there a such thing as overlubing the case mouth? Sometimes its a real B*tch being an engineer.... Its a curse really. I think its time to shoot the engineer and start production.
thanks Guys!
Last edited on 30 October 2008 02:06 PM by 64Impala
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BAT1
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| Joined: | 6 June 2007 |
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Posted: 3 January 2009 06:45 PM |
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I have a LEE Classic Turrent , and everytime I've had problems, I go back and reset the die to the instructions, and they vanish. I'm loading some .223 right now, trimming my cases to 1.75 to 1.76. I tumble, deprime/size, THEN trim my cases and ream the necks. Then I prime. Then I charge and press, and use a very light crimp. You'll get the hang of it. Always look at the charge before pressing. Some rifles put dents and marks on the shells, but they fire form out when shot. I have a Cabela's tumbler kit with media and [strainer, very important]. I use the slow but accurate Lee scale that came with it to check my digital scale before a batch. SS 109 has been running 2.240- 2.255 OAL , and it feeds and shoots accurate in 62 gr. I prefer 2.235- 2.240 as OAL in .223. When I put my Bushy on it's stand and eject them, they all fall in a little pile. Cleaning out primer pockets, I say why mess with the carbon seal. We probably all have pulled the pin, loosen up the top of the die, go back down, reinsert, and re-adjust it, tighten it tighter, then turn your shellholder around 180 degress and slip back on the case rim as you move the piston upward, and pull down again. Bam it's out. Let the force guide you, Luke.
Last edited on 3 January 2009 07:02 PM by BAT1
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TCA4570
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Posted: 3 January 2009 08:04 PM |
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Brass on right looks good coming from cleaning.
Loaded on left will make look different, as it does.
What lube did you use for full resizing?
Marks on case, and neck show that.
Pits on case may be from using used brass.
One chip mark can scrap many parts
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