| Posted: Mon Oct 26th, 2009 05:46 PM |
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21st Post |
Rapier
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This is the 85 Sierra at 3,500 fps over H-414 in the Remington 700 Cutom gun. Attachment: 260 .111 group John VD.jpg (Downloaded 179 times)
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26th, 2009 05:48 PM |
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22nd Post |
Rapier
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If you go to a match where money is on the line for a side bet, suggest you keep your "wonderful gun" in its case if a 260 is roaming about.
Best,
Ed
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"who can afford so to cover his country with troops for its defense as that 10,000 men descending from the clouds might not in many places do an infinite deal of mischief before a force could be brought together to repel them?" Franklin
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27th, 2009 12:12 AM |
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23rd Post |
yankeebillie
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I have nothing but good things to say about the 260 it is a handloaders dream to load for. Recoil is pleasent and i am a baby about now. I shot a deer in Ontario last year it was just about 150 yards. A nice one shot kill i used the 120 sierra pro hunter with 44 grains of H-4350 if i shot better it would always shoot under an inch at 100 yards.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 02:26 PM |
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24th Post |
Thecyberguy
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Pretty impressive groups.
Guy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 03:57 PM |
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25th Post |
choppersdad
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greysmoke,
The 264 Win Mag is good for about 1000 to 1500 rounds of good accuracy, less if you load it for all it's worth, but here's the way I look at it now, since I've matured enough to A. not believe everything gun writers say and B. to realize that gun writers are there to sell new products that the manufacturers are developing to help them stay in business and to make money...
The 264 Win Mag is a long range hunting round, more specifically developed by the makers and presented by the gun writers as the ultimate Pronghorn antelope, mountain goat and deer rifle for "out west" long range shooting. It's not a "BIG" game rifle, but you could use it for that in some applications, It's not a varmint rifle either, although you could use it for that as well. Taking this into consideration, how many times (realistically) do you think that you would fire that laser beam in a years time? Especially after that first year when your developing loads for it...20, 30, 50 times maybe. 1000 rounds bbl life devided by 50 rds per year is 20 years! Think avout it!
Secondly, there is very little new under the sun as far as rifle cartridges go...since the days of P.O. Ackley and his wildcatting bretherin of the 50's and 60's, read his pair of books and see for yourself. The 260 Remington is a grand cartridge but it will do little if anything that a 7-08, which will do little if anything that a 308 won't do as well or better in the same action and rifle, so IMHO it is a niche rifle for which a niche did not and does not exist! You may argue the superior balistic flight of a 6.5 120 gr over a 7mm 120 gr over a 125 gr 308...but for the ranges that these cartridges are limited to, that "balistic advantage" turns out to be little more than something to talk with friends about while sitting around the camp fire enjoying a cold one!
If it were me and I wanted a 264 Win Mag or a 260 Rem, go ahead and get one...it'll give you and us something to talk about. 
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 04:33 PM |
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26th Post |
CB900F
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Fella's;
And then there's the 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser. All the .260 is, is Remington's attempt to reproduce the same thing in a slightly different form to ride the short action craze. Trouble is, proving you can shoot well enough to use the so-called advantages of the short action, is like trying to paint a fart green. Yer hangin' yer hat on a real thin wisp of gas.
900F
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 05:44 PM |
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27th Post |
scratchypants
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There's really no need for the jealousy. Us 260 heads agree that there is no real advantage over any other cartridge that is as powerful, as accurate, and as fast.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 06:39 PM |
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28th Post |
choppersdad
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scratchypants wrote: There's really no need for the jealousy. Us 260 heads agree that there is no real advantage over any other cartridge that is as powerful, as accurate, and as fast.
Yup... sorry for being jealous! 
Back to Ammunition Ballistics
Cartridge Information
Index Number
Cartridge Type
Weight (grs.)
Bullet Style
Primer No.
Ballistic Coefficient
R260R1
Remington® Express®
140
Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt®
9 1/2
0.435
R7M081
Remington® Express®
140
Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt®
9 1/2
0.390
PRC308WA
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra
150
Core-Lokt® Ultra Bonded
9 1/2
0.331
Velocity (ft/sec)
Cartridge Type
Bullet
Muzzle
100
200
300
400
500
Remington® Express®
140 PSP CL
2750
2544
2347
2158
1979
1812
Remington® Express®
140 PSP CL
2860
2625
2402
2189
1988
1798
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra
150 CLUB
2820
2546
2288
2046
1819
1611
Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type
Bullet
Muzzle
100
200
300
400
500
Remington® Express®
140 PSP CL
2351
2011
1712
1448
1217
1021
Remington® Express®
140 PSP CL
2542
2142
1793
1490
1228
1005
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra
150 CLUB
2648
2159
1744
1394
1102
864
Short-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type
Bullet
50
100
150
200
250
300
Remington® Express®
140 PSP CL
0.3
0.8
zero
-2.3
-6.1
-11.7
Remington® Express®
140 PSP CL
0.2
0.7
zero
-2.1
-5.7
-11.0
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra
150 CLUB
0.2
zero
-1.2
-3.9
-8.2
-14.4
Long-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type
Bullet
100
150
200
250
300
400
500
Remington® Express®
140 PSP CL
1.9
1.7
zero
-3.3
-8.3
-24.0
-47.2
Remington® Express®
140 PSP CL
1.8
1.6
zero
-3.1
-7.8
-22.9
-46.8
Premier® Core-Lokt® Ultra
150 CLUB
1.9
1.7
zero
-3.4
-8.6
-25.5
-53.1
Note:
These ballistics reflected a test barrel length of 24" except those for 30 Carbine and 44 Remington Magnum which are 20" barrels.
Specifications are nominal. Ballistics figures established in test barrels. Individual rifles may vary from test barrel results.
“zero” indicates yardage at which rifle was sighted in.
* Inches above or below line of sight. Hold low for positive numbers, high for negative numbers.
1 Bullet does not rise more than 1" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.
2 Bullet does not rise more than 3" above line of sight from muzzle to sighting-in range.
† 280 Remington and 7mm Express Remington are interchangeable.
‡ 6mm Remington and 244 Remington are interchangeable.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 07:12 PM |
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29th Post |
scratchypants
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Let me get that for you:
You read the rest of my post, right?
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 07:18 PM |
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30th Post |
Offfhand
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Here's the bottom line about the .260: Go to any big bore, Silhouette or F-class tournament and a high percentage of the competitors will be using the .260. In fact it was originally designed by a target shooter, and turned out to be a fine hunting cartridge as well, which is no surprise as the little 6.5 cartridges have always been outstanding for hunting. But you'll never see the 7mm08 used for serious target shooting anymore because the .260 is overwhelmingly superior in a number of ways. The published ballistics of factory ammo is apples and oranges compared to the super accurate .260 ammo used by serious competition shooters. And by the way, I have a nice 7mm08 that I used for years with good success,and still enjoy shooting it, but in no way does it compare to my .260's.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 10:55 PM |
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31st Post |
choppersdad
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Offfhand wrote: Here's the bottom line about the .260: Go to any big bore, Silhouette or F-class tournament and a high percentage of the competitors will be using the .260. In fact it was originally designed by a target shooter, and turned out to be a fine hunting cartridge as well, which is no surprise as the little 6.5 cartridges have always been outstanding for hunting. But you'll never see the 7mm08 used for serious target shooting anymore because the .260 is overwhelmingly superior in a number of ways. The published ballistics of factory ammo is apples and oranges compared to the super accurate .260 ammo used by serious competition shooters. And by the way, I have a nice 7mm08 that I used for years with good success,and still enjoy shooting it, but in no way does it compare to my .260's.
Which by the way...is no more true for the 260 than any other cartridge and the same goes for thir rifles. My comparisn was for hunting uses and yardages. For that purpose there is so little difference as to make it inconsequential.
Your 7-08 in no way compares to your 260... The 7-08 and 308 are surely as lethal as the 260. The 7-08 and the 260 are so close balistically as to make the comparison magnifying glass close with the 308 very little behind and not really at all if you step into the 165 gr bullet class. I have a custom 6.5x257 Roberts AI that is superbly accurate, balistically great and a sure, swift killer...but in reality, no more so than my 7-08 or my 308. In the presence of anyone toting a 260, I wouldn't feel that I had an inferior rifle or caliber.
But, as I said before, the 260 is indeed a grand cartridge and worth of your praise.
Mark
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2009 11:25 PM |
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32nd Post |
fryboy
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i fell in love with all the 6.5's long ago ....that b.c. is hard to beat but for a 100-200 yard shot at a deer ... ummmm it doesnt matter what matters the most is that the hunter puts what ever he' shooting where he wants it ........i dont use a 6.5 for deer tho ....it's too much gun for the job ,sadly here i cant use a .22 caliber so i use a 6mm, i do take one of my old trusty 6.5's after elk tho and it's perfect for that job ,there is no doubt that the poor neglected and forgotten 6.5 has more than adequate power to handle any game on the world with proper shot placement but i also grant that there are sometimes where one could benefit from larger calibers, i do note on the above chart that while the humble lil 6.5 may lose a lil trajectory it also retains more velocity than the other two .....and it starts out slower and ends up at 500 yards faster ....
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 02:36 PM |
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33rd Post |
choppersdad
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fryboy, in that chart, the 260 and 7-08 were loaded with 140 gr bullets, especially with the 260, that is a pretty optimal bullet weight (for hunting use) with the 260 and the 308 was shown with a 150 gr. Going to a 165 gr or 180 gr bullet would help to optimize the balistic potential for the 308 although would raise the recoil factor some.
In my original post here, I wasn't trying to raise any feathers but rather give my point of view on the minimalistic differences between three very similar cartridges as far as hunting goes...I don't think I stated that very well! I also tried to point out the practical life of a 264 Win Mag barrel when used for hunting, not for target shooting.
Certainly the 6.5 cal bullet has the balisic advantage over both 7mm and 308 in any similar weight range...but my point was to illustrate the realistic differences while hunting at normal hunting ranges...which to me would be 300 to 400 yds maximum. That being the case...I certainly would rather have a 165 or 180 gr. 308 bullet at hand, especially for something on the order of an Elk.
You guys carry on. It is obvious that there is a love of the 6.5 cal here that is well deserved...and I don't want to throw a turd in that punch bowl...
Mark
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 03:08 PM |
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34th Post |
fryboy
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eh some one would fish it out and not tell anyone lolz i actually step up to 6.5 for elk..there's nothing that quite penetrates like a long lean sexy 160 grain 6.5 short of armor piercing projectiles...
assuredly u didnt ruffle my feathers i have some odd likes and dislikes ( from mild to wild and a whole lot of stuff in between ) i noted that the 30 was with 150 grainer understandable since few if any 30 cal bullets are made in 140 , i have to agree with the barrel life ,my newest one i dont figure will last too long ( a custom 6.5x.284) but it should be spectacular on p-dogs loaded with norma's 77 grainer lolz (it is with the nosler 100 bt)and i hope it's fun while it last bu i do try to not let it get too hot ....havent decided to moly or not in that tube ..if it was stainless steel there is no doubt that i would ,end result ? no matter the caliber if the shot isnt placed where needed no amount of umm horsepower will make up for it ...as to why the 260 isnt more popular in the states for hunters versus target shooters is a good matter for debate ... i do note that i see a ton of 7 mm & 30 calibers for sale but those who do break down and get a 6.5 rarely if ever want to part with it ...to me that speaks volumes ( but i dont want to give up my 30's either lolz the 7 ..well i'm not so in love with it altho it's a great caliber as well )
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 03:27 PM |
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35th Post |
Offfhand
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From the standpoint of viewing the .260, 7'08 and .308 as hunting cartridges I will certainly agree with anyone who points out that a deer will neither know or care which one he has been shot with. In fact, from the purely hunting perspective the .308 has a definate edge over it's smaller offspring because of the greater variety of bullet weighs and types available, plus wider selection of brands. The .308's advantage is also somewhat obvious when larger game such as elk is included in the equation. But when argueing the advantages of larger and heaver bullets you also have to consider the downside of increased recoil and shootability. In which case the advantages of the .260's light recoil become apparent, especially the bonus of downrange performance. Basically, the bottom line, once again, is that the deadlest cartridges are those that make it easy to hit what you're shooting at. Which is the reason that cartridges such as the .250 Savage earned a reputation for being deadler than it's size would indicate. The .260 falls in this category.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 03:32 PM |
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36th Post |
choppersdad
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fryboy wrote: eh some one would fish it out and not tell anyone lolz i actually step up to 6.5 for elk..there's nothing that quite penetrates like a long lean sexy 160 grain 6.5 short of armor piercing projectiles...
assuredly u didnt ruffle my feathers i have some odd likes and dislikes ( from mild to wild and a whole lot of stuff in between ) i noted that the 30 was with 150 grainer understandable since few if any 30 cal bullets are made in 140 , i have to agree with the barrel life ,my newest one i dont figure will last too long ( a custom 6.5x.284) but it should be spectacular on p-dogs loaded with norma's 77 grainer lolz (it is with the nosler 100 bt)and i hope it's fun while it last bu i do try to not let it get too hot ....havent decided to moly or not in that tube ..if it was stainless steel there is no doubt that i would ,end result ? no matter the caliber if the shot isnt placed where needed no amount of umm horsepower will make up for it ...as to why the 260 isnt more popular in the states for hunters versus target shooters is a good matter for debate ... i do note that i see a ton of 7 mm & 30 calibers for sale but those who do break down and get a 6.5 rarely if ever want to part with it ...to me that speaks volumes ( but i dont want to give up my 30's either lolz the 7 ..well i'm not so in love with it altho it's a great caliber as well ) I'm not sure, but I think that I originally intended to illustrate how gun writers make or break the success of various guns and cartridges, and my belief that they are the ones that are used to sell products for the various manufacturers...good, bad, or otherwise! I often use the 17 Remington as a good illustration. When it was first introduced by Remington as the "cats meow" for varmint hunting. A little later the writers put the same cartridge down the crapper as being a barrel burrner and that it "fouled bores in as little as 10 shots" thereby trashing any accuracy potential it ever had...which by the way was only true because of the crappy finish that Remington left in the bores of those rifles. Then just a few years ago came the 17 HMR which was the do all savior to the rimfire world. At least as far as I'm concerned...the 17 HMR will do little if anything that my Anshutz 22 Mag will not do as well or better (here I go again sticking my foot in my mouth)...given the limited effective reanges of those particular cartridges...But...it did sell a bunch of rifles and ammunition! I guss I have some strange viepoints as well! Ben nice talking to you guys about all of this Mark
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 05:16 PM |
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37th Post |
choppersdad
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Offfhand wrote: From the standpoint of viewing the .260, 7'08 and .308 as hunting cartridges I will certainly agree with anyone who points out that a deer will neither know or care which one he has been shot with. In fact, from the purely hunting perspective the .308 has a definate edge over it's smaller offspring because of the greater variety of bullet weighs and types available, plus wider selection of brands. The .308's advantage is also somewhat obvious when larger game such as elk is included in the equation. But when argueing the advantages of larger and heaver bullets you also have to consider the downside of increased recoil and shootability. In which case the advantages of the .260's light recoil become apparent, especially the bonus of downrange performance. Basically, the bottom line, once again, is that the deadlest cartridges are those that make it easy to hit what you're shooting at. Which is the reason that cartridges such as the .250 Savage earned a reputation for being deadler than it's size would indicate. The .260 falls in this category.
I hve to agree with much of what you wrote! The recoil argument is a good one, to a degree! When the 260 or the 7-08 are loaded with bullets of 140 to 160 grains though...the recoil differential between all three rounds starts to shrink rapidly and it is with those bullets that any realistic balistic superiority potential exists...key word here being realistic, especially at normal hunting ranges. I suspect that my indifference to a couple of lbs/ft of recoil energy comes from the many rounds of 30 caliber ammo shot while shooting big bore competition when I was in the service...one tends to become rather immune to that or quits shooting big bore, one or the other. Some of my buddies used to expound on how much less recoil there was between the 165 and 175 brain bullets we shot and how much more comfortable they were with the former...I on the otherhand...always thought that the difference was all in their head  ... but to each, his or her own preference should always be first to them, because above all else, confidence in what you shoot is maybe the most important ingredient to a successful hunt!
Mark
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 05:54 PM |
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38th Post |
Don Fischer
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Offfhand wrote: Here's the bottom line about the .260: Go to any big bore, Silhouette or F-class tournament and a high percentage of the competitors will be using the .260. In fact it was originally designed by a target shooter, and turned out to be a fine hunting cartridge as well, which is no surprise as the little 6.5 cartridges have always been outstanding for hunting.
I wasn't aware that Ken Water's was a target shooter. If your thinking of Jim Carmichael, he came in way down the line. Water's cartridge was called the 263 Express and is the origional 260 Rem. Carmichael got it going shooting it in long range matches.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 06:58 PM |
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39th Post |
choppersdad
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Don Fischer wrote: Offfhand wrote: Here's the bottom line about the .260: Go to any big bore, Silhouette or F-class tournament and a high percentage of the competitors will be using the .260. In fact it was originally designed by a target shooter, and turned out to be a fine hunting cartridge as well, which is no surprise as the little 6.5 cartridges have always been outstanding for hunting.
I wasn't aware that Ken Water's was a target shooter. If your thinking of Jim Carmichael, he came in way down the line. Water's cartridge was called the 263 Express and is the origional 260 Rem. Carmichael got it going shooting it in long range matches.
Although I haven't pulled out my dog eared copy's of P.O. Ackleys books, I feel almost certain that there was a 6.5-08 fiddled with in the 50's or 60's. As I said in my first post in this thread there is very little new under the sun regarding rifle cartridges wnce P.O.Ackley and his wildcatting bretherin got done back in the 60's. I'll add this to it, I don't think that target shooters had much to do with it at all!
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2009 07:15 PM |
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40th Post |
Paul B
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Well, if I had my druthers, I'd go with the 6.5x54 Mannlicher round. I fell in love with that one and the neat little Mannlicher -Schoenaur carbine over 53 years ago. I was having a local gunsmith do a semi-custom job on a 1917 Enfield, restock, cut the barrel to 22" and reblue job as was the rage back then. The gun was supposed to be ready before deer season but as things worked out, it wasn't. Bob, the gunsmith kindly loaned me his hunting rifle, the M-S carbine in 6.5x54. The load he gave me was the Norma ammo with the 160 gr. RN bullet at probably 2250 FPS from the short barrel of the carbine. Two shots and two deer on the ground. Then I went to Nevada for an out of state hunt, I existed in California at the time, but it wasn't that bad back then, and came home with two more very nice bucks. Four deer with four shots. I asked Bob if he would sell me that rifle. He said he would not but I could have it when he passed away. Little did I know that in less than a year that gun would be mine.  Bob was more than a gunsmith, he was a friend. He sold me my first .22 at 14, my first handgun at 16 and did my Enfield up for very little money. Some low life stole that rifle from my vehicle up in Elko Nevada in the mid 1970s and all I will say is God help the dude if I ever find him.Every time I saw one of those rifles at a gun show, either the price was way out of line or if relatively reasonable, the bore so corroded from corrosive primers and or beat up that I would pass on the deal. Ammo for the 6.5 M-S is tough to find these days anyway, although I do have the dies to laod the round.
Over the years, I tried to find something that had the feel and handing of that long lost rifle. Then, Ruger brought out their little RSI and while I wanted one, at the time with house payments and payments on two vehicles, no way could I swing one. One day I saw an ad in our local paper about an RSI in .308 at a price I could just barely afford. I called the guy and he hadn't sold it yet so I went to see it. It was absolutley cherry so I asked him why so cheap? He said it was the most inaccurate gun he's ever shot. Damn, someone who's honest for a change. I gave him his price and said I'd gamble thet I could make it shoot. FWIW, I did. No bench rest special by any means but ever deer taken with that gun has been a one shot kill and that's good enough for me.
Sorry to have gotten so far off thread but it leads up to my thoughts on 6.5 cartridges and the .260 Rem. in general. I don't know if Ruger brought the RSI out in .260 Rem., but if they did, or if they ever do, I will be the first in line to get one if I see it. I built up a 6.5 Swede into a nice custom, did most of the work myself while I was working for a gunsmith in Nevada and did the work with him more or less supervising. (A training project he called it.) Stock was made of Cherry wood with Rosewood tip and grip cap. It had the Weatherby look of the period BTW and was a very nice looking rifle, if I do say so myself. I never did get to hunt that rifle. I was out sighting it in and a guy made me an offer I couldn't refuse. A Remington 600 Mohawk in .308 and $500. He wanted it for his kid's birthday. Must have been true as I ran into them up in the canyon where I was hunting behind town. Kid got his deer too.  
I like the 6.5s but just haven't had one in years. I did that swede back in 1973 or 4 as I recall.
These days, most of the time I use a 7x57 Mauser as my hunting cartridge. Severe arthritis keeps me for shooting the bigger bangers much anymore. Even the 06 stays home more often than not. Stuff like the .404 jeffery and .416 Rigby get out maybe once a year these days and living on Aleve in prescription strength for a couple of weeks after shooting them is not my idea of fun anymore. Unless I win the lottery (fat chance) I'll never be able to afford an African hunt anyway so they're more or less safe queens these days.
BTW, W.D.M. Bell, who took so many elephants with the lowly 7x57 and FMJ bullets also used the 6.5 M-S as well. He didn't like it as the 160 gr. FMJ bullets always seemed to bend into banana like shapes and not penetrate as well because of this. he did say that when they worked, they worked just fine but most of the time they just bent trying to imitate bananas. That must have been a bit hairy at times. 
Paul B.
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