| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 01:53 AM |
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Gunrunner
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Last week I resized 100 308 cases I have on hand. Winchester brand, don't remember how many times I've resized them. Most of the sizings have been full length. The last time I'd resized these I used the Redding neck die. When shot in my Rem 700P the bolt was hard to close and hard to open after firing, for most of the cases anyway. So this time I used the full length die.
The cases kept coming out with a dimple on the shoulder. I know that to much lube is usually the culprit for that problem. (I've gotten real good at puting just enough lube on a case, with none on the shoulder, to keep the cases from getting those dimples.) I took the die out of the press and cleaned it out real good. Resized some more cases, and the same thing was happening. I cleaned the die again, using lots of Hoppes #9. Again, the same thing. Did 29 cases that way.
I got out my old Lee 308 full length die and proceeded to resize the rest of the cases with no problems whatsoever.
When I loaded up the cases I kept the Redding resized separate from the Lee resized, so if there's a problem I can identify it to the source. At least maybe. I took the 29 cases from the Redding die to the range and on my first shot I had my first ever case head separation. Luckily the front of the case dropped right out of the chamber when I tipped the rifle upwards. There were 7 other cases that had splits in the head after firing.
I'll take the Lee resized cases out soon and see what happens with them. I know that this isn't a great idea, to shoot very questionable ammo, but I need to see how the other cases do. When I'm done I'm going to trash all this brass.
I think maybe the cases have been full length resized to many times, and the brass has just gotten to weak. Still, I've never had this happen with any caliber I've reloaded for. And I don't have a clue as to why the Redding die, which has worked great for me, is causing the dimples and the Lee doesn't. Perhaps the Redding has closer tolerances? I don't know.
I talked with one of the old timers here and he's going to help me find out why my neck sized cases aren't working like they should. That will help a lot. I hate full length resizing all the time but it's the only way I've been able to get easy bolt operation.
When I shoot the other cases I'll let ya all know what happens. (If I live through it.)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 02:47 AM |
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saddlesore
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Probably just worked to many times. You could have a little head space problem, but still be in specs, so the cases gets strecthed a little more. Personally if 7-8 out of a hundred separate, I would toss them all. Shooting ammo that the case separates to satisfy idle cuiosity is not the smartest thing to do. Neck sized cases always tend to chamber a little hard, but shouldn't extract hard. How long has it been since you checked the overall length of the cases, if you have been full length resizing them?
Also, take the gun to a shop and have them go-no -go it. Or get a brand new , never fired case, and some .002 shim stock. Cut it out in little discs the size of the case head. Insert the case in the gun, add a shim to the back and see if it closes. If it does, keep adding shims until it won't. It will give you a ball park idea of what is going on with the chamber.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 04:55 AM |
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Gunrunner
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SS, I do intend to throw out all 100 cases, not just the 8 bad ones. I check the OAL of the cases after every resizing and trim to length if needed. I'll see if I can come up with some shimstock and try that little trick to check the headspace. As soon as I get some new 308 brass. I'll try to keep a better record of how many times they've been fired too.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11th, 2005 05:36 AM |
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d2redneck
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I don't know much about reloading but, from what I have heard I don't believe that it is a very good idea to shoot any brass after 3 to 4 loads. Is this correct? Like I said I don't know much at all about reloading so if this is wrong let me know.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12th, 2005 12:04 AM |
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Gunrunner
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D2, a lot of that depends on the type of brass and what kind of loads your pushing. Hot loads will usually cause the brass to stretch faster and therefore weaken sooner. Some brands of brass like Lapua have a reputation for long life, if used with moderate loads.
Handgun brass will usually outlast rifle brass, at least in my experiences. I have some 44 Spcl brass that's been loaded for over 10 years and still works fine. In my rifles I usually see signs of the brass getting weak and that's maybe after 5 or 6 loads. (Things like a ring developing around the case or split necks or just having the accuracy of a good load go to heck.) If I neck sized all the time they might last longer.
The worst offenders seem to be nickel plated brass. They're harder and tend to get splits at the case mouth, especially in handguns.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12th, 2005 09:28 PM |
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bea175
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The biggest reason for case head seperation is pushing the shoulder of the case back with you resizeing die , which causes excessive case stretching when you fire . The case should only be sized back until the die touches the shoulder and the die locked there. When you push the shoulder back you then have caused a headspacing problem and short case life. Last edited on Wed Jul 13th, 2005 04:08 AM by bea175
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13th, 2005 04:04 AM |
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Gunrunner
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Bea, I've been giving this some more thought. I realize the headspace problem might exist, but.......I've used Winchester brass in this rifle since I've had it. I've seen signs of problems developing in the past with the brass. Nothing critical, just the normal signs that it's time to toss the old brass and start over with new brass. Never saw that coming with this lot. It was just all of a sudden the brass went to heck. Same dies I've been using, same resizing techniques, etc... That's why I'm going to go out and shoot some of the loads that were resized in the Lee die to see how they act. Same exact powder charge, bullet, primer, everything. Just the different die. Hopefully I'll have time to go tomorrow and find out what's up with this.
Also thinking back to past experiences I remember placing a piece of scotch tape on the back of a resized case and trying to chamber it. The bolt didn't close easily, as it did on the same case with no tape. When I've tried backing the die out just a tiny bit, the cases wouldn't chamber without undo pressure to the bolt. I don't think it's a headspace problem. Maybe I got a batch of brass that just wasn't up to snuff. (Can't remember where I got that idea for the tape. Maybe from one of the old timers at the range.) I'll see what the Lee resized cases do and let you all know.
One thing that needs mentioning. FOR ANY OF YOU WHO ARE NEW TO RELOADING. IF YOU HAVE A CASE HEAD SEPARATION, STOP RIGHT THERE!!! LET SOMEONE WHO HAS EXPERIENCE WITH RELOADING HELP YOU FIGURE OUT WHAT IS GOING ON. DON'T TAKE ANY CHANCES!! I've never had a gun blow up on me and don't intend to. But I don't recommend anyone to do what I'm attempting, with ammunition that might not be safe. ALWAYS WEAR EYE PROTECTION WHILE TESTING RELOADS. This tip might just save your eyesight. I don't care if the scope looks fuzzy, WEAR EYE PROTECTION!!!!!!!! Once the load is deemed safe, then you can put your naked eye to the scope. Above all else, BE SAFE !!! Accuracy after safety.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13th, 2005 11:44 PM |
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Gunrunner
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Got out to the range today and had 16 rounds of the "Lee resized" brass. I'm very happy to say that each and every case showed no signs of separation. No splits, no rings, no nothing.
I also did some more thinking on this, (after I pulled my head out of my butt), and retraced the brasses history. I checked the log book for the round count for this rifle, and then found on Midway's website when I'd ordered the brass. Added it all up and it turns out this was the 7th time they've been resized.
Like I originally thought, the Redding die must have closer tolerances than the Lee, and like Bea said, the shoulders were probably being pushed back a bit to much. Since the brass has become workhardened they decided to separate (or split) when fired. I'll be ordering new 308 brass here real soon.
But I might go back to using the Lee die. Today I fired my first 10 shots at a 100 yard target and kept them in .620" ctc, in somewhat windy conditions. (I couldn't believe I didn't throw one out and spoil the group)
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