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Timberghozt
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| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Plaza De Los Armas, Mexico |
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Posted: 31 August 2005 02:47 AM |
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| Great stuff fellas.I enjoy hearing the thoughts of you guys who hunt them on a yearly basis..Rob,I`ve been kicked and cussed for being a 270 lover for many years but they work and work well..I gotta agree with Saddlesore too though,a heavy bullet in an 06 is hard to beat if the owner can put his bullet in the right spot..
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Rob
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Posted: 31 August 2005 04:19 AM |
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I can see why some would feel a '06 would be better and then go onto the
30cal mags and then onto the 338's. True enough they may carry a larger load to the target in size and energy but the elk I shoot, where I shoot them just don't seem to want to participate in the discussion That being said I bought a 8 Rem mag when in it came out as the classic for the sole purpose of more juice at longer ranges. Sure enough I shot a younger six point at about 375 yards. First shot, I thought I missed. I knew I held right so I called it buck fever and shot again and like hit by the famous hammer of Thor it flattened him. The entrance wounds were within a palms distance of each other, I believe after the first shot he turned a bit and instead of a clean exit thru the ribs the second hit dead on the opposite shoulder. The Hornady 220 held together well. This could sorta prove the larger is better theory but I rarely get a shot so perfect at that distance and I would have taken the same shot with my .270 and I know I would have a dead elk just the same. It was a very nice hunt, I had my wife me that day. We got an animal and didn't have to wear her to ground where we were hunting.
Here's a pic of the bull and the bullet.
At one time I loved that rifle, in fact so much I though I just had to give her an upgrade. I sent it to Pac Nor and I'll just say it didn't go well. Another 1k or so later it now wears a Krieger installed by them with all the bells and whistles, voo doo too and a McMillan Stock I bought from a guy that had one new but did a butcher bedding job. Nice thing about fibergalss is who cares! Do it over. What I ended up with is a rifle I have zero interest in what so ever. I have less than 100 rounds down that new tube and I long ago hi-jacked the scope for another rifle. That leads me back to my favorite, the good old .270 Winchester. One a Colt light rifle that drives tacks and is joy to carry and a newly aquired pre-64 that'll get a mild face lift. I also have a 338-06 in the works, I think I'll love it but will it replace the good old .270, not sure that it will. So what it boils down to me is liking the rifle in a cartridge that is up to the task and you're set. To me the .270 is up to the task. The 8mag of course is still TRADE BAIT any takers !
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Timberghozt
Board Founder
| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
| Location: | Plaza De Los Armas, Mexico |
| Posts: | 5285 |
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Posted: 31 August 2005 12:19 PM |
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Great pics and commentary Rob.
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Mike Graham
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| Joined: | 28 May 2007 |
| Location: | Castlegar, British Columbia Canada |
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Posted: 4 September 2007 03:40 PM |
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Hi
I was wandering if you still have the 308 norma mag ? If so what make? and is it for sale?
Mike Graham
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saddlesore
addicted handloader
| Joined: | 6 February 2005 |
| Location: | Colorado Springs, Colorado USA |
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Posted: 4 September 2007 06:45 PM |
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About 5 yrs ago when you could get three elk tags in CO, I dropped two cows and a 5 pt bull in about 30 seconds with 3 shots. All were bang/flop. These were with my /06. 220 gr Sierra. To boot , I was using an old Weaver V-7 scope about 30 yr sole. The next year I ranged where they were from where I shot from with a Lieca 100 laser and it said 347 yds.
If folks don't think an .06 has enough ump at longer ranges, they have never used one at those ranges.
I usually don't shoot that far, but everything was right.
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Hi Ball
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Posted: 15 October 2007 02:47 AM |
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Saddlsore, I guess it was about 7 seasons ago in Wyoming that I personally lasered a nice bull elk for 2 hunters from the Washington area. Yes, they both were banging away at this bull across the canyon, who the guide said was a mere 350 yards away OK. Now both hunters had zeroed their rifles in for 200 dead on! It just goes to show you, even the locals can mistake yardage out West!
I saw the one hunter's bullet strike a large bounder, beneath the bull as it stood standing broadside to us. Now by that time, each hunter had shot at least 3 times at that bull and didn't come close to him with their bullets. All shots were hitting very low against the rocks on the other side of the canyon. I had a true 447 yards on the range finder when holding on the bull elk.
I told the one fellow what the yardage was and he looked like he seen a ghost. He had one bullet left in the magazine he stated and I told him, it only takes one bullet. He fired and the elk turned at the same time, struck the critter behind the ribcage. The bull took 3 steps and fell over dead as a door nail. So the moral to the story is, simply don't sell that 30-06 short on yardage, especially when it is loaded with 180 grain Nosler partition bullets.
Last edited on 15 October 2007 02:49 AM by Hi Ball
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Mike Graham
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| Joined: | 28 May 2007 |
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Posted: 31 October 2007 04:47 PM |
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| In the Kootneys the sound of the gun shot is the dinner bell for a vary large Grizzly pop. A close freind of mine has been charged 3 times by Grizz which he had to kill . I pack a 375 H&H or my 308 Norma Mag. Both do a great job for me. I agree with an comment I read, it's not the rifle or cal. it's the hunter.
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Hi Ball
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Posted: 1 November 2007 01:35 AM |
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Mike on the elk hunt I was on while hunting in Wyoming, we were told NO BEARS in the area OK. Well, Yellar Stone is just around the corner from where we were hunting (25 miles give or take a mile) and I not only seen the fresh grizzly tracks one day on a logging road, I also saw a scrape on the biggest aspen tree in the vacinity. I had to stick my rifle barrel up in the air to reach the top of it far abover my head. I was carrying my .338 Win mag that day but I felt undergunned when I heard that bear bellow out somewhere down in the valley from us. A friend of mine, who is a local native to Jackson Hole, carries a .375H&H as his elk rifle for the past 14 years now. A little heavy perhaps but great piec of mind when in bear country!
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bmw1200lt
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| Joined: | 24 February 2007 |
| Location: | Ault, Colorado USA |
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Posted: 25 November 2007 02:06 PM |
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| The ultimate elk cartridge is the one a person can shoot the best. Shot placement is what is important!
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bea175
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Posted: 25 November 2007 03:00 PM |
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For a Timber rifle for Elk, i just don't see how you could beat a good lever gun in 45-70 Goverment.
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Ranch 13
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| Joined: | 1 April 2006 |
| Location: | Hells Gap, Wyoming USA |
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Posted: 25 November 2007 07:00 PM |
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bmw1200lt wrote: The ultimate elk cartridge is the one a person can shoot the best. Shot placement is what is important!
Now that's about the most intelligent post in this whole discussion.
 Good lord big bulls need a bigger gun, come on someone hasn't ever put a dry cow on the scale, and an old large ass herd bull. At the time of most rifle seasons the old herd bulls are pretty well immaciated, the cows are still in fine shape, will have better body conditions, and weigh within a few pounds,or more of the mythical superbull.
Pick the cartridge that makes you feel the best but don't be surprised if some idjut shooting a simple bottle neck cartridge such as a 243 or 25-06, shooting those lousy ol cup and core bullets, puts a bigger elk in the dirt with one shot, than somebody shooting a magazine full out of some flinchmaster with the premium bullets .
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klallen
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| Joined: | 10 February 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
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Posted: 26 November 2007 12:17 AM |
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Ranch 13 wrote: Pick the cartridge that makes you feel the best don't be surprised if some idjut shooting a simple bottle neck cartridge such as a 243 or 25-06, shooting those lousy ol cup and core bullets, puts a bigger elk in the dirt with one shot, than somebody shooting a magazine full out of some flinchmaster with the premium bullets .
I agree with R13's top statement. Within reason, a cartridge you have the upmost confidence in will usually translate into a greater level of success in the field.
As far as the second comment, we don't need to get to crazy about this stuff. I don't much care if a feller chooses a .243 over a .338 as his go-to elk rifle. I may privately question what he sees in a varmint round that would suggest it better suited for elk then something a larger, but I'd keep it private. And in fact, I suppose I would be forced to encourage such a selection if that's all the cartridge a person could muster accurately  . But, I must say, I would most definitely be suprised to see anyone do any better with a pea-shooter then the fellers in my hunting circle do with their "flinchmasters". Course we're kinda the fly in the ointment of conventional wisdom; proving these large, un-shootable "flinchmasters" can indeed be shot accuarately. That's why I've always said an accurately shot "flinchmaster" will trump an accurately shot pea-shooter pretty much any day of the week and Sunday's too. I believe this to be an even truer statement when large bodied, heavier boned animals are concerned. It goes beyond being able to simply shoot accurately and proper shot placement. These are givens with an experienced hunter. It's choosing the right tool for the job. I suppose that's what makes us all unique.
Been trying to piece together a water buffalo hunt when my bro heads to OK this spring. I don't know if it'll pan out yet as price and timing are still in the discussion mode and I'm still thinking I'd rather spend $$$ on more ram hunts, however I've got a .243 Win. and a .25-06 Rem. in the safe setting along side a 7mm RUM and 7.82 Warbird which are flanked by a .358 STA and .416 Rem. I shoot each very well. Even so, if this hunt does get booked, while all would indeed kill a buffalo, two cartridges sound "right" for the job; four do not.
Guess ya just have to make sure you're making the best choice possible with the tool you choose to hunt with and let the cards fall where they may if the decision is a wrong one. Talk to ya'll later. >> korey
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Ranch 13
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Posted: 26 November 2007 01:58 AM |
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Hey Korey hope you make that buff hunt and bring back some good pics for us to see.
I think to many folks get turned from good shooters, to lousy shots when they try and make the jump from standard cartridges to the magnums.
I've shot and seen elk shot with quite a bit of the "better" stuff and like Saddlesore said its pretty tough to tell whether those elk are any deader than one killed with a 243 or not.
If a feller has more confidence in his 25-06 he'll shoot it twice as well as he will a new flinchmaster, that smacks him around everytime he yanks the trigger.
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klallen
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| Joined: | 10 February 2005 |
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Posted: 26 November 2007 05:24 AM |
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Evening R13 >> I doubt this buffalo hunt will happen. Unless the email back drops a price qoute on my that I just can't turn down. I have large rams that I really want to hunt first.
As per your comments, again, I agree with ya to a point. If a 25-06 is the top end of what a guy can accurately shoot, that's the rifle he should be shooting. But he's got to be ready to accept the results if that bullet doesn't do what he needs it to do. I do not believe a 100 - 120 gr. basement bargain .257 bullet gives the full on-game flexibility of a 250 - 280 gr. premium .358 bullet (used just for example cause I like my STA  ). And on large mass, big bone animals where oft times shot angles aren't always ideal, flexibility is a valuable commodity. An accurately shot magnum always trumps an accurately shot standard. There's no getting around that. There is no situation hunting elk, were a .358 STA will not do what a .25-06 will on game. The opposite is not true. It's not that I don't believe my .243 or .25-06 will kill an elk. I simply don't need it to. My varmint rounds are used for varminting. Antelope / Deer rounds are used for Antelope and Deer. Elk rounds are used on Elk. I 'spose if someone only had one rifle, they'd have to try and make one round cover all bases. I have no need or see any value in doing that and forcing little rounds into large game tasks.
You open up a whole other topic when you mention good shooters turning bad because they try a magnum round. Probably not the string for it but here's some of my thoughts on that. This thinking seems flawed. I submit, these folks were "lousy shots" all along. They just never were shooting a round that exposed the fact until they saddled up to a magnum. Consider for a second, shooting technique is something learned, developed and continually perfected. It is a skill. If you never shoot a round where the groundwork for proper technique must be established and never shoot a round that tests and continually challenges this technique, then you never truely develop the skill. Shooting a .243 or .25-06 isn't a challenge. We all know that. Since no challenge is presented, no skill is necessary to perfect its use. I see someone shooting any of the small standard cartridges well (myself included) and I hardly think "boy, they possess a great shooting skill". We're simply doing what we should be doing. What anyone should be able to do. What children can do. Shoot light recoiling guns well. Skill? Nope, not in my eyes. An actual skill comes when you have to work at it. When you're challenged. I have loads of respect for the guys that can hunker down behind a magnum and put three under an inch. Cause it takes some work. Takes some commitment. You simply don't have to work at shooting a pea-shooter. I will agree with you that most sharp shooters using a .243 aren't worth a pug nickel when you put them on a magnum rifle but I wouldn't call these folks sharpshooters in the first place. They're sub-par shooters, allowing the use of little bitty round to cover up the fact. I don't hold it against folks who can't shoot magnum rounds well and choose not to use them. But I also don't blame it on the magnums for their shooting deficiencies. All my humble opinion, of course. >> korey
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chuckscap
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| Joined: | 12 October 2007 |
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Posted: 26 November 2007 06:04 AM |
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I've killed 12 elk with a .270, and 1 with a 375 H&H. Some were just under 400 yards, most were in the timber under 30 yards, none of them went more than 30 yards after being shot (maybe I'm just lucky). You do need to use premium bullets, I recommend the 150g Swift A-Frames, if you don't handload, Remington sells them as premium ammo. Noslers work as well. I plan to use the 375 H&H from now on primarily so when I get to Africa it's the one rifle I've been hunting with and shooting for a few years.
Chuck
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Hi Ball
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Posted: 26 November 2007 07:28 AM |
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Beal-175, I don't have any doubts about that 45-70 lever gun on elk in the dark timber. I believe my Marlin 444 would be just as good with Beartooth Hard Cast Bullets!
I have taken elk with a .270 Winchester, .300 Win mag, .338 Win mag, .375H&H and a . 25-06. I prefer the .338 Win mag using a premium 225 grain bullet in the chamber. I'ts my pick for big bull elk and the .300 Win mag is next on the list.
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Ranch 13
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Posted: 26 November 2007 10:46 PM |
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Korey, as you might remember I don't really have anything agains the big magnums, but don't really see a need either.
I have seen the magnumitis turn 2 good shots into one fair shot and the other guy just about had gave up on hunting till we got him talked into going to a 243 or 257 and got his flinching stopped.
Stock fit is vitally important when someone grabs onto the magnum bandwagon. It nowhere near as crucial with a good share of the standard cartridges.
I have had the miserable job of having a fella tagged to my hip pockets for 7 days of elk hunting with his brand new 300 win mag, after he let the guy in the sporting goods dept of some chain store in Iowa convince him his 25-06 loaded with 120 gr partitions would not no how work for elk. Long story short we didn't get him in front of an antlered elk, which was all that was legal, and I was sort of glad, as everday as we would be sitting watching a clearing or pass someplace he'ld look at his rifle and say "man this thing sure kicks" I'm betting he couldn't of hit the broad side of a barn with that thing cuz I doubt his eyes were ever open when the firing pin hit the primer, and the muzzle of that rifle probably wouldn't of been pointed within 150 yds of where it should of.
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Hi Ball
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Posted: 27 November 2007 12:15 AM |
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Ranch 13 I know that there are many first time elk hunters, who just don't understand what should be done prior to the hunt. Especially when it comes to the type of rifle and bullet they need to best increase their odds of killing an elk in the wild.
Today there are less and less people who actually practice enough with their rifle, other than going perhaps deer hunting etc., where the deer is more likely to be seen at less than 60 yards. I have seen more than one elk hunter or mule deer hunter become intimidated by the yardage out West, not to mention the wind factor as well.
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Ranch 13
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Posted: 27 November 2007 01:15 AM |
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HiBall the difference in terrain and elevation does get to alot of folks.
The one thing I think they should understand is that the same rifle they've been plugging whitetail with in their homeland is also going to work well for elk. There's no real need for them to spend a bunch of money on a rifle just to go elk hunting, they've most likely already got a rifle that is plenty capable of killing elk anywhere any time.
Probably more important for them to understand is that even in the very good years 60 percent of the hunters are going home without filling their licenses, and a goodly share of those probably never had the opportunity for a shot. 6x6 bulls don't pose in the meadows with a sign that says shoot me here , like they tend to hint at on the outdoor infomercial channels. In fact I've had biologist tell me they loose more of the grand old herd bulls due to starvation than they do to hunters, as they get in such poor body condition during the rut, that if the snows hit and cover the good feed they can't get into good enough shape to make the winter.
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Timberghozt
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| Joined: | 11 February 2005 |
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Posted: 27 November 2007 01:28 AM |
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I certainly agree with many of these statements.I shoot nickels at 100 yards with my 300 Win Mag for fun..I intend to use it on elk.
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