| Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 12:32 AM |
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41st Post |
klallen
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swampshooter wrote: I believe the 30-30 has killed more whitetails than any other cartridge, but it's also crippled more.
interesting consideration, swamshooter.
probably not what the .30-30 purists would like to hear but there would have to be a certain level of validity to what you're suggesting.
if the .30-30's killed the most whitetail because of popularity and simple longevity, those same two things would also have to contribute to it being in hand when the most whitetail have been wounded and lost. you really don't need stats or documentation. it's simple percentages. throw into the mix how often the .30-30 is chosen by the least experienced or used as a learning tool for the youngest of hunters, i can at least entertain the idea that it would be in hand when a high level of mistakes have been made on game.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 12:41 AM |
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42nd Post |
sako06
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If every hunter carried a spray bottle of Hydrogen Peroxide more wounded deer would be located. Last edited on Wed Apr 15th, 2009 12:44 AM by sako06
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 01:00 AM |
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43rd Post |
klallen
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you're right, of course, but i kinda look at it with a pro-active, rather then re-active response ... if more hunters simply shot better (no matter which rifle / cartridge combo they chose to carry), there'd be less wounded animals needing to be located.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 01:25 AM |
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44th Post |
Timberghozt
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klallen wrote: swampshooter wrote: I believe the 30-30 has killed more whitetails than any other cartridge, but it's also crippled more.
interesting consideration, swamshooter.
probably not what the .30-30 purists would like to hear but there would have to be a certain level of validity to what you're suggesting.
if the .30-30's killed the most whitetail because of popularity and simple longevity, those same two things would also have to contribute to it being in hand when the most whitetail have been wounded and lost. you really don't need stats or documentation. it's simple percentages. throw into the mix how often the .30-30 is chosen by the least experienced or used as a learning tool for the youngest of hunters, i can at least entertain the idea that it would be in hand when a high level of mistakes have been made on game.
In defense of the 30-30,It is more than ample enough power to kill quickly whitetailed deer..If its wounded many,its the same angle Korey speaks of..Piss poor shots.
In my neck of the woods I would say from the perspective of a professional guide and a hunter,the 243 Winchester is the biggest culprit of wounded deer..
Not that the 243 is underpowered for whitetails,not by a long shot,.
The problem is, dads go buy Juniorr his first deer rifle.He`s heard the 243 is a light kicker and great for a boy`s first deer rifle.He takes Junior down and allows him enough rounds to zero..and off Junior goes to hunt with dad..Well,Junior gets the shakes at any deer he sees when its time to place a bullet in the crease of the shoulder in the heart lung area and Junior plows a round through the deer`s guts,paunch, hams..etc..
I`ve seen it and I know it is frequently happens here.It isn`t the kid`s fault or the 243 Cartridges fault.It is shitty shooting buy folks who are not proficient with the weapon and placed in a high intensity situation to shoot deadly accurate..
furthermore,I`ve seen as many Dad`s with their new 300 Win Mag wound just as many deer.Because they haven`t put in the trigger time..and some are just shitty shots when the pressure is on..
Most of the debate about cartridges being wounders are bullshit.I killed a bunch of nice deer with a 220 Swift..
and for cull work,I would prefer a 22-250 with 55 grain bullet or a Swift over a 270 or an 06..It dont take 180 grains, or even 130 grains to kill deer fast..
It matters where the bullet hits and that it expends enough energy traveling through the wound channel..
A 55 grain bullet going through the heart of a 90 pound hill country doe= dead on the spot...
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 01:38 AM |
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45th Post |
Irish Mike
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Sako-06, You done said a mouthful sir. Yes indeed that new ammo works wonders with some of those previously thought to be 100 yard rifles. It turned my 444 Marlin into a 200 yard deer getter Boys!
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 02:32 AM |
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46th Post |
sako06
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I use a 3x9x40 scope on my Marlin 45-70 XLR so I can see the animal with my old eyes.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 04:42 AM |
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47th Post |
klallen
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Irish Mike wrote: that new ammo works wonders with some of those previously thought to be 100 yard rifles. It turned my 444 Marlin into a 200 yard deer getter Boys!
i got a question for ya, i m . how the heck did an ftx, more specifically, that ftx all of a sudden turn your .444 into a 200 yd. gun? i mean, if it wasn't a 200 yd. gun before, it surely isn't one now, is it? consider ... the marginally better bc of the 265 .430 ftx at the same velocity as hornady's 265 .430 fp (2200fps +/-) nets you 6 or 7 tenths of an inch flatter trajectory out at 200 yds. again, just over 1/2 an inch. am i understanding you correctly when you suggest that this minutely flatter trajectory is what's all of a sudden giving you the confidence you need to now use your triple 4 at 200 yds, when you wouldn't before? just curious.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15th, 2009 05:47 PM |
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48th Post |
swampshooter
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Irish Mike, Not many people admit to crippling game. This knowledge was gained by 45 years of hunting experience, being in the woods and hunting camps with probably close to 1,000 deer hunters as i used to hunt 3 or 4 different states every year.The 30-30 will kill deer reliably when shot well and at a reasonable range, but there isn't much room for error. Contrary to what gun magazines will write there is a big difference between a deer hit behind the diaphragm with a 30-30 and one hit in the same place with a .270 or 30/06 with 130 gr. bullets in the former and 150 or 165 in the later. I'm also not a fan of the .243, especially for big northern whitetails. The problem being that it seldom leaves a blood trail which can be very important in thick country. Also as it gets it's killing power solely from it's high velocity, when velocity diminishes at long range,i.e. over 250 yds. it's killing power also diminishes as does bullet expansion. Most of my deer hunting is done with a 7x57, hand-loaded to very close to .270 velocities. The .243 is one of my favorite calibers, but my use of it is for groundhogs, coyotes, javelina and other game of less than 100 lbs. I've used it on 3 pronghorns and one of them, which was well hit at 300 or 350 vds. had to be chased and shot again. If this had been a whitetail in the woods it would have been lost. A true sportsman should try to use a gun and caliber that is capable of producing ample killing power even when everything doesn't go well, and not try to use marginal small calibers which are prone to produce cripples when things go astray. As Robert Ruark once wrote " Use enough gun".
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16th, 2009 12:28 AM |
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49th Post |
Timberghozt
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swampshooter wrote: Irish Mike, Not many people admit to crippling game. This knowledge was gained by 45 years of hunting experience, being in the woods and hunting camps with probably close to 1,000 deer hunters as i used to hunt 3 or 4 different states every year.The 30-30 will kill deer reliably when shot well and at a reasonable range, but there isn't much room for error. Contrary to what gun magazines will write there is a big difference between a deer hit behind the diaphragm with a 30-30 and one hit in the same place with a .270 or 30/06 with 130 gr. bullets in the former and 150 or 165 in the later. I'm also not a fan of the .243, especially for big northern whitetails. The problem being that it seldom leaves a blood trail which can be very important in thick country. Also as it gets it's killing power solely from it's high velocity, when velocity diminishes at long range,i.e. over 250 yds. it's killing power also diminishes as does bullet expansion. Most of my deer hunting is done with a 7x57, hand-loaded to very close to .270 velocities. The .243 is one of my favorite calibers, but my use of it is for groundhogs, coyotes, javelina and other game of less than 100 lbs. I've used it on 3 pronghorns and one of them, which was well hit at 300 or 350 vds. had to be chased and shot again. If this had been a whitetail in the woods it would have been lost. A true sportsman should try to use a gun and caliber that is capable of producing ample killing power even when everything doesn't go well, and not try to use marginal small calibers which are prone to produce cripples when things go astray. As Robert Ruark once wrote " Use enough gun". Me and you think much alike ..I too also handload for my custom 7x57.She is a killing machine with 139 grain Hornady SSTs..
TG
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16th, 2009 01:01 AM |
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hwy40
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Never shot a whitetailed deer. I would guess that anything that is usefull for mulies would work for whitetails. Tha puts me in a 25-06,270, or something else that goes bang.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16th, 2009 01:04 AM |
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51st Post |
Timberghozt
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yup,what works for a Texas whitetail kills a Texas mule deer.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16th, 2009 01:50 AM |
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52nd Post |
Irish Mike
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Swampshooter & Timberghozt, I suppose it would do a hunter well to know the limitations of the caliber rifle he or she is shooting. I myself never considered the .243 Winchester as a 250 or 300 yard "whitetail deer cartridge", heavens never ok, more like 150 yards in my book using Nosler partition bullets. Most of the whitetails my wife has shot with a .243 caliber and myself were all shot below a 125 yards. I can assure you the .243 has more than ample kinetic energy, to kill the biggest of bucks at that yardage. According to the marjority of deer taken in my state, the average shot is under 40 yards!
I'll never be the woodsman or hunter my late brother in law was once but I can tell you he had no problems killing elk with that .243 Winchester caliber in a model 70, to the tune of 17 bulls. An old timer named "Whiskey" written about by a well respected writer of the 50's, 60's & 70's, once had this man for a friend, who lived up in those rocky mountains and wrote a couple of articles about him, killing many elk with his .243 Winchester as I remember. Most were shot under a 100 yards if my memory serves me correct. A hunter must know their limitations and their weapon of choice.
I have often heard hunters talk about how the .270 and even 30-06 just doesn't have the power to really "knock em down" or "Smack em dead in their tracks" their reason for chosing a big magnum or some other wildcat perhaps.
In the first place, I would never plan on shooting a deer at 200 or 250 yards with a 30-30! However, at 125 yards I am taking the shot savvy. So that puts things back to square one, simple as opposum pie dear sir's. You need to know the Max Range your rifle caliber is good to go and also what type of bullet weight etc. you need for the job. This combined with weather or not your capable of be that marksman it takes to pull off that shot. So once again, it is a simple matter of knowing your tools for the job. 
Last edited on Thu Apr 16th, 2009 02:05 AM by
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16th, 2009 03:07 AM |
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53rd Post |
swampshooter
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So, Irish Mike, I take it that if you saw a huge buck standing on the other side of a pasture 250 or 300 yds. away that you wouldn't shoot. Last edited on Thu Apr 16th, 2009 03:19 AM by swampshooter
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16th, 2009 04:17 AM |
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54th Post |
klallen
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evening, swampshooter. in a word ... nope. he wouldn't shoot. more appropraitely, couldn't shoot. honestly, i think the old boy would wet himself at the thought of having to take a shot with any sort of distance to it. he'll tell ya otherwise, cause he's done everything, but he's taken it upon himself to get on my case for entertaining such shots while hunting. truth be told, with all his talk, i'm not sure he possesses the skill set necessary to successfully attempt such opportunities. understanding of ballistics fail him. he talks large, but .................... you'll see the more you chat with him.
i'm still waiting to hear a clarification on his .444 nonsense from a couple posts back. you'll find silly stuff like that in everything he posts. he'll talk to you as if he's giving you a life-lesson on rifles, cartridges, hunting or anything (it don't matter) while each step of the way showing his true colors. quite the unusual character, to say the least.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16th, 2009 05:52 AM |
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55th Post |
Irish Mike
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Klallen I am only going to say this once you behind the scenes, wet behind the ears Cry Baby of a moderator! Now you can pull my chain all you want but I am doing what you said your were going to do to me, cut me lose and ignore my posts. I suggest you follow your own words.
Now you can get huffy all you want and try to bait me but let me tell you one more time, I am a hunter first and that does not include killing big game at Loooooong Ranges savvy. NOW YOU GO PISS UP A ROPE BOY!!!
SwampShooter, no sir I would not take a shot with a 30-30 caliber rifle at 250 or 300 yards. Now this is because of two reasons, one my 30-30 lever gun does not have a rifle scope on it ok and the other reason is, I just don't think the caliber has enough gas in the tank.
Now Please don't Bann me over my words of truth Mr. Moderator, I's be good and shine your boots too......Yeah, when the moon turns to blue cheese pal.  
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16th, 2009 11:54 AM |
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56th Post |
klallen
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i m , you were ignored in the other string because your side-chatter was getting in the way of a fast paced, interesting conversation with phil. you weren't offering anything original. simply repeating what had already been said. like that knat buzzing around you just can't get rid of. i'd have loved to converse with you there but you were offering nothing. phil had the african angle covered. i had the handguns covered. you were ... well, in essence, you were doing nothing. just kinda flitting all over the place with your silly little antics stirring it up. that's why you were forced out of the mix. big boys were talking about big boy stuff, as it were.
now, we can talk.
honestly, it'd serve you best actaully if you did talk at this point. don't run from your words. there's no value in speaking if you can't defend what's spoken. if you're going to pass yourself off as a supreme "hunter" with ultimate knowledge, speaking with authority on every topic handloadersbench has to offer (and i'm fine with you doing so), you better be willing to back that of which you speak with more then simply "i've hunted for _____ years and that's that". it don't work that way. credibility isn't established by simple years in the field. we've all been there, done that. back your words with some facts. start with your .444 comments. i'm suspecting one of three things there. you either don't have a .444; or you've never shot the ftx's in your .444; or you simply don't understand the ballistics of your .444 pre and post ftx use. either way, you look less then knowledgeable if ya don't offer a little factual support to your claims that all of a sudden, you've got a 200 yd. gun with ftx use.
as mentioned earlier, you're posts abound with silly little snipets like this, amungst the sarcasm and smilie faces, of course. if i see them, i'll ask ya about them. mostly out of morbid curiousity. just to see what you really know and understand. weather you answer or not is certainly your choice. but that, in and of itself, sheds more light on the knowledgeable "hunter" that is irish mike.
so, again :
i got a question for ya, i m . how did an ftx, more specifically, that ftx all of a sudden turn your .444 into a 200 yd. gun? i mean, if it wasn't a 200 yd. gun before, it surely isn't one now, is it? consider ... the marginally better bc of the 265 .430 ftx at the same velocity as hornady's 265 .430 fp (2200fps +/-) nets you 6 or 7 tenths of an inch flatter trajectory out at 200 yds. again, just over 1/2 an inch. am i understanding you correctly when you suggest that this minutely flatter trajectory is what's all of a sudden giving you the confidence you need to now use your triple 4 at 200 yds, when you wouldn't before? just curious.
i've supported my case with a few quick facts. let's hear your side. no sarcasm. no smilies. just answer some simple questions ... with fact.
after that, we'll work on other topics. your .243 hangups. your lack of understanding with longer range hunting. we can move on from there. there'll be lots to get to, i'm sure. if nothing else, your posts abound with counterdiction. we'll address them all. it'll be fun.
you wanted my attention before? now you got it. so, lets talk.
i'll be in touch.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21st, 2009 12:48 AM |
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57th Post |
scout243
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Irish Mike wrote: Swampshooter & Timberghozt, I suppose it would do a hunter well to know the limitations of the caliber rifle he or she is shooting. I myself never considered the .243 Winchester as a 250 or 300 yard "whitetail deer cartridge", heavens never ok, more like 150 yards in my book using Nosler partition bullets. Most of the whitetails my wife has shot with a .243 caliber and myself were all shot below a 125 yards. I can assure you the .243 has more than ample kinetic energy, to kill the biggest of bucks at that yardage. According to the marjority of deer taken in my state, the average shot is under 40 yards!
I'll never be the woodsman or hunter my late brother in law was once but I can tell you he had no problems killing elk with that .243 Winchester caliber in a model 70, to the tune of 17 bulls. An old timer named "Whiskey" written about by a well respected writer of the 50's, 60's & 70's, once had this man for a friend, who lived up in those rocky mountains and wrote a couple of articles about him, killing many elk with his .243 Winchester as I remember. Most were shot under a 100 yards if my memory serves me correct. A hunter must know their limitations and their weapon of choice.
I have often heard hunters talk about how the .270 and even 30-06 just doesn't have the power to really "knock em down" or "Smack em dead in their tracks" their reason for chosing a big magnum or some other wildcat perhaps.
In the first place, I would never plan on shooting a deer at 200 or 250 yards with a 30-30! However, at 125 yards I am taking the shot savvy. So that puts things back to square one, simple as opposum pie dear sir's. You need to know the Max Range your rifle caliber is good to go and also what type of bullet weight etc. you need for the job. This combined with weather or not your capable of be that marksman it takes to pull off that shot. So once again, it is a simple matter of knowing your tools for the job.
You are a Goober
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 02:09 AM |
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58th Post |
Timberghozt
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Me thinxt ya are right mighty 243 hunter
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25th, 2009 04:43 AM |
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59th Post |
killman
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I vote for the .260 rem does everything and more.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26th, 2009 12:44 AM |
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60th Post |
Timberghozt
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Killman,I am becoming a believer in the .264-6.5 mm bullets.
I met a fellow once,he was a Captain on a deep sea fishing guide service.I hunted on his ranch in the Texas hill country twice.
He had been a Marine Scout Sniper in Vietnam and later at the Marine Sniper school.
He shot a 264 Win Mag with about a yard of scope on it.This fella was a phenomenal long range shot with that rifle.
little by little I get more and more intrigued by the 6.5`s..The 6.5-06 and the 6.5-284.
I like anything based on the 308,so the 260 oughta be a champ.
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