| Posted: Wed Sep 16th, 2009 04:41 PM |
|
1st Post |
Paul B
member
| Joined: | Sun Sep 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 224 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
OK, do we really need those over priced and maybe over rated premium bullets for all of our hunting?  I'm thinking no.
I load the 180 gr. Sierra Pro-hunters for my deer hunting in the 30-06 and the Nosler Protected Point Partitions in the 06 for elk. On one deer hunt, I did not get to load up my regular deer load, so had to use my elk load for the deer hunt. I only had the very last day of the season to do the hunt as my work schedule due to short handedness, work was 12 hours a day 7 days a week. As it was the last day of the season, I told the boss I was not coming in (he didn't like that.) and I planned to leave before sunrise the next morning. Well, as knocked out drag out tired as I was, I went to bed early and overslept anyway. Sunrise was long gone when I started the trip up Thomas Canyon where I planned to hunt. I was headed for the end of the road and a long climb up the canyon side when I spotted a deer about 50 yards of the road. OK, it was a legal buck so I stopped and took the shot at the deer which was now maybe 35 yards away from me. Remember, I had my elk loads in the gun, the 180 gr. Nosler PP Partition loaded to an estimated 2800 FPS. Should have done the job right then and there, right? Nope! First shot clipped the heart putting a finger sized groove in the top of the heart muscle, but not breaking through to open it up. The deer jumped and started trotting off to my right. I shot again going for the lungs and making a solid hit. Deer reverses direction. Shot number three is a complete miss. This deer ain't human, what's going on? Shot number four cut an antler. I forced myself to settle down and shot to break it's neck in which I was successful.
For the record, this deer was HUGE! I had to cut it in half to load it onto my truck. The skinned out quarters weighed 296 pounds on a certified butcher's scale.
I've already said what the first shot did to the heart. The lung hit was just a slightly larger than caliber hole through both lungs. The finishing shot broke the neck but still did very little outside damage. The hole in the neck bone was not quite an inch in diameter.
So the question is, what went wrong? Was that bullet just way too tough for deer? Never did shoot an elk with it so would it have worked on one of them? I dunno. I do know that if I'd have been using my normal deer load, the first shot would most likely have shattered the heart like a high velocity bullet blowing up a full soft drink can. Considering how that bullet worked, or should I say didn't work, I consider myself very lucky to have gotten that deer.
So the question is, do we really need a premium bullet for hunting deer?
Paul B.
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16th, 2009 06:28 PM |
|
2nd Post |
Charley
Board Founder
| Joined: | Fri Sep 9th, 2005 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 3259 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | all of them |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
How DARE you suggest all the hunting/shooting magazines and their advertisers are wrong trying to sell superduperpremiumkillerbullets (at $1.25 to $3.00 each). Todays whitetails are bigger, tougher, and stronger than the midget deer of your grandfather's era. Bullets and calibers commonly used back then simply bounce off the hide of most modern whitetails. Wake up and smell the gunpowder!
____________________
Charter Member of the vast right wing conspiracy
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16th, 2009 06:33 PM |
|
3rd Post |
Charley
Board Founder
| Joined: | Fri Sep 9th, 2005 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 3259 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | all of them |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Note to the literal minded...the above post is a joke.
Likely too tough a bullet to expand in a smaller animal. I've never used a premium bullet in any whitetail load, and have never noticed a lack of killing power. From Remington's ancient Corlocts to Winchester Powerpoints, from Speer HotCores to Sierra's Prohunter , or even the lowly cast round ball or bullet, they all seem to work.
____________________
Charter Member of the vast right wing conspiracy
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 12:12 AM |
|
4th Post |
wheezengeezer
Moderator
| Joined: | Mon Jul 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Jeddediah Jones Swamp,Corbin, Kansas USA |
| Posts: | 1125 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | pistol | | My favorite chambering is:: | 44 Marlin 1.28 straight |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I bought a 270 to go up in weight from the 25/06 I have used since 79.The 25 killed every deer I pulled the trigger at.Close to 75.I used speer,hornaday and sierra bullets in the 117 to 120 gr range.But some had a bit more bloodshot meat than I was happy with.The 270 is loaded with 140 gr accubonds,the only load it gets other than some plinkin stuff.
____________________
I was raised in the 50's on gunpowder and jackrabbits.salt and pepper wooda made'em taste better
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 12:16 AM |
|
5th Post |
Don Fischer
member
| Joined: | Thu Aug 27th, 2009 |
| Location: | Antelope, Ore |
| Posts: | 219 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | rifle | | My favorite chambering is:: | Could be one of several. Love the 6.5x55, 6.5-06 7xs57 ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Yea we do. All those animals that have been reportedly killed with round balls and cup and core bullet's weren't killed really. Part of the deal was that if we could touch them with a bullet they had to pose in a dead position for a picture befor leaving. The meat that everyone claimed to love was really beef, lamb and pork, it was killed by hitting it on the head with a hammer.
I've never used so much as a Nosler partition on game but I have bought a couple boxes of them. They really don't shoot all that well in my experience.
____________________
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 12:23 AM |
|
6th Post |
swampshooter
Moderator
| Joined: | Sun Aug 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 377 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I've taken a little over 100 deer in almost 50 years of deer hunting, never did use a premium bullet. Most were one shot kills.
____________________
NRA Endowment member
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 12:25 AM |
|
7th Post |
saddlesore
HB certified Master Handloading and Ballistics advisor
| Joined: | Sun Feb 6th, 2005 |
| Location: | Colorado Springs, Colorado USA |
| Posts: | 591 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Al this hype about premums came about because guys were trying to use std cupand core bullets at magnum velocites, at whcch they don't stand up. Keep within the design parameters and they work just fine
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 12:27 AM |
|
8th Post |
miestro_jerry
Administrator
back to top
|
I like some of the factory bullets, but I also cast a lot of rifle bullets for hunting. If I need to make really long shots or need super magnum power, I will use factory bullets that I load, but for most things cast bullets do work very well. Just ask the departed ground hogs on my farm. 
Jerry
____________________
No Goats, No Glory
NRA Benefactor Member
Ohio Rifle and Pistol Association Member
The Cast Bullet Association
Bethesda Farmers and Sportsmen Club
ODNR Certified and Licensed Hunter
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 03:10 PM |
|
9th Post |
swampshooter
Moderator
| Joined: | Sun Aug 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 377 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
saddlesore wrote: Al this hype about premums came about because guys were trying to use std cupand core bullets at magnum velocites, at whcch they don't stand up. Keep within the design parameters and they work just fine
I agree 100 %, but even then the big problems, except for excessive amounts of bloodshot meat, didn't arise until we shot game larger than deer. IMHO, there's no need for magnum cartridges to hunt deer. The premium bullets are desirable though, in order to reduce excessive expansion and increase penetration, if shooting deer with the large, high velocity magnums. But why use them for deer, they are totally unnecessary and much more uncomfortable and uncontrollable than standard rounds.  These big magnums are specialized cartridges and deer are not their specialty. I've seen yearling spike bucks almost blown in half by .300 mags. Not a pretty sight at the check station, and 75% of the edible meat was destroyed. My favorite deer rifle is a 7x57 with a 20" bbl, shooting standard 139-150 gr. bullets. Performance, even at long range is excellent.
____________________
NRA Endowment member
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 03:13 PM |
|
10th Post |
miestro_jerry
Administrator
back to top
|
This winter, if the deer are like last winter, I just need a baseball bat, they came right up to my back door.
Jerry
____________________
No Goats, No Glory
NRA Benefactor Member
Ohio Rifle and Pistol Association Member
The Cast Bullet Association
Bethesda Farmers and Sportsmen Club
ODNR Certified and Licensed Hunter
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 03:34 PM |
|
11th Post |
swampshooter
Moderator
| Joined: | Sun Aug 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 377 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Paul B wrote: OK, do we really need those over priced and maybe over rated premium bullets for all of our hunting? I'm thinking no.
I load the 180 gr. Sierra Pro-hunters for my deer hunting in the 30-06 and the Nosler Protected Point Partitions in the 06 for elk. On one deer hunt, I did not get to load up my regular deer load, so had to use my elk load for the deer hunt. I only had the very last day of the season to do the hunt as my work schedule due to short handedness, work was 12 hours a day 7 days a week. As it was the last day of the season, I told the boss I was not coming in (he didn't like that.) and I planned to leave before sunrise the next morning. Well, as knocked out drag out tired as I was, I went to bed early and overslept anyway. Sunrise was long gone when I started the trip up Thomas Canyon where I planned to hunt. I was headed for the end of the road and a long climb up the canyon side when I spotted a deer about 50 yards of the road. OK, it was a legal buck so I stopped and took the shot at the deer which was now maybe 35 yards away from me. Remember, I had my elk loads in the gun, the 180 gr. Nosler PP Partition loaded to an estimated 2800 FPS. Should have done the job right then and there, right? Nope! First shot clipped the heart putting a finger sized groove in the top of the heart muscle, but not breaking through to open it up. The deer jumped and started trotting off to my right. I shot again going for the lungs and making a solid hit. Deer reverses direction. Shot number three is a complete miss. This deer ain't human, what's going on? Shot number four cut an antler. I forced myself to settle down and shot to break it's neck in which I was successful.
For the record, this deer was HUGE! I had to cut it in half to load it onto my truck. The skinned out quarters weighed 296 pounds on a certified butcher's scale.
I've already said what the first shot did to the heart. The lung hit was just a slightly larger than caliber hole through both lungs. The finishing shot broke the neck but still did very little outside damage. The hole in the neck bone was not quite an inch in diameter.
So the question is, what went wrong? Was that bullet just way too tough for deer? Never did shoot an elk with it so would it have worked on one of them? I dunno. I do know that if I'd have been using my normal deer load, the first shot would most likely have shattered the heart like a high velocity bullet blowing up a full soft drink can. Considering how that bullet worked, or should I say didn't work, I consider myself very lucky to have gotten that deer.
So the question is, do we really need a premium bullet for hunting deer?
Paul B.
Paul, given the same shot placement on an elk you would've had better results from the Sierra Pro Hunter bullet. When shot broadside, using standard cartridges, you will get quicker kills, even on elk, because you get more expansion. Shot broadside through the lungs a standard cup and core bullet will produce much faster kills than a premium bullet which is designed to penetrate deeper, but produces a much narrower wound channel, resulting in a longer chase after the shot.
____________________
NRA Endowment member
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 03:42 PM |
|
12th Post |
klallen
Board Founder
| Joined: | Thu Feb 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 1189 |
| Photo: | [Download] | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | Warbirdz Rule |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
hell, i don't even think there's a general concensus as to what a premium bullet even is. some base on price. others on construction. others on brand name alone.
i use ballistic tips and accubonds for my deer hunting. if you define them as "premium" bullets, then yes i need them. if not, i don't.
i simply call them "the bullets i use when deer hunting" .
k
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 03:59 PM |
|
13th Post |
Don Fischer
member
| Joined: | Thu Aug 27th, 2009 |
| Location: | Antelope, Ore |
| Posts: | 219 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | rifle | | My favorite chambering is:: | Could be one of several. Love the 6.5x55, 6.5-06 7xs57 ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Would you be using a wooden bat or a premium aluminum bat?
Don't know how it happened but I think I just PM'd this message???
miestro_jerry wrote:
This winter, if the deer are like last winter, I just need a baseball bat, they came right up to my back door.
Jerry
____________________
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 04:08 PM |
|
14th Post |
Paul B
member
| Joined: | Sun Sep 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 224 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
klallen wrote: hell, i don't even think there's a general concensus as to what a premium bullet even is. some base on price. others on construction. others on brand name alone.
i use ballistic tips and accubonds for my deer hunting. if you define them as "premium" bullets, then yes i need them. if not, i don't.
i simply call them "the bullets i use when deer hunting" .
k
I tend to consider the ballistic Tip a semi-premium bullet and the Accubond a premium bullet partially based on price.
Consider this. When John Nosler was running the show,the ballistic Tips came 100 to the box. When he retired, his son took over, reduced the amount of bullets to 50 to the box and kept the same price.  What's with that, other than pure greed? Did the ballistic Tips all of a sudden become more expensive to make? And why drop one of their most popular bullets in favor of a another that while accurate, was not quite as efficient in the game fields? The price on the partitions nearly doubled as well. Gusee he wanted more money to pay for nother trip to Africa or something. Who knows?
The solid base bullet which were better than the ballistic tips also came in boxes of 100, but were dropped. When they came back, 50 to the box. I still have a few of those 100 to the box bullets in 7MM for my 7x57, both ballistic Tips and Solid base. I use them sparingly.
Paul B.
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 04:12 PM |
|
15th Post |
swampshooter
Moderator
| Joined: | Sun Aug 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 377 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I just read in Bats and Scammo Magazine that the wooden bats were insufficient and would result in lost cripples. Their leading expert writer suggests that you buy the more expensive magnum aluminum bat as advertised on page 127 of the September issue.
____________________
NRA Endowment member
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 04:25 PM |
|
16th Post |
Paul B
member
| Joined: | Sun Sep 30th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 224 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Deer very ofen. Too amn much work for so small an animal and shots are way the hell and gone out there.swampshooter wrote:
Paul, given the same shot placement on an elk you would've had better results from the Sierra Pro Hunter bullet. When shot broadside, using standard cartridges, you will get quicker kills, even on elk, because you get more expansion. Shot broadside through the lungs a standard cup and core bullet will produce much faster kills than a premium bullet which is designed to penetrate deeper, but produces a much narrower wound channel, resulting in a longer chase after the shot.
I won't argue that point.  If I draw a certain area of the several I choose for an elk hunt, using a far reaching magnum is almost mandatory as once the shooting starts, the elk head out into these very wide open parks where they can spot a hunter coming a mile away. My rifle of choice is a .300 Win. mag. using one of two bullets. Both weigh 200 gr., the Nosler Partition usually up the spout with the 200 gr. Speer Hot-Cores in the magazine. Both bullets are loaded to hit in the same place. The Nosler is for the rare chance of an up close and personal shot at an elk and if I have to take along shot, it's easy enough to replace the Nosler with the Speer. The same would apply if using my Ruger #1 in .300 mag. with the Speer loads sitting in the butt cuff.
I don't hunt Coues Whitetail Deer very often. Too much work for so small an animal and shots are usually way out there. Again, this is .300 Mag. as the rifle of choice. not because those tiny deer are so tough, but because of the very long range shots that are the usual fare. They are quite wary and very spooky. Again, I use a 180 gr. Nosler up the spout and a matching trajectory Sierra 180 gr. Pro-hunter in the magazine. I probably won't hunt them anymore. A bad knee and an arthritic hip have slowed me way down. Don't get old. It ain't much fun. 
Paul B.
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 05:06 PM |
|
17th Post |
16gauge
member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 29th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 63 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I've dropped deer & antelope with standard bullets from Hornady & Speer in 6.5 Swede, .30-06, and 30/30 Winchester. I doubt that they would have been killed faster with premium bullets......
I have played around with what some might call 'premium' bullest (Nosler partitions)....I have an accurate round in .30-06 using a 200 grain partition, and if I ever get a chance to go for moose, that is what I intend to use.
Do I need to use it? Probably not.....but when I am spending big bucks on an out of state hunt, taxidermy fees, guide fees, ect, ect, a few more bucks for a box of bullets that might give me a bit of an edge is money better spent, IMHO.
I think the advantage to using them (premium bullets) comes when the handloader is using a cartridge which might be on the low end side for the game in question.
Just MHO, FWIW...............
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 05:10 PM |
|
18th Post |
miestro_jerry
Administrator
back to top
|
For deer I would use a 30/30 with a Premium Cast Bullet, probably 165 grain, for Elk I would use 35 Remington 195gr bullet or a 444 Marlin with 310gr bullet. Either One with Premium Cast Bullets.
Factory bullet can be premium bullets, by which standards I am not sure, but so can cast bullets. It is the skill of the hunter that adapts and uses different bullets, the deer pretty much stay the same.
Jerry
____________________
No Goats, No Glory
NRA Benefactor Member
Ohio Rifle and Pistol Association Member
The Cast Bullet Association
Bethesda Farmers and Sportsmen Club
ODNR Certified and Licensed Hunter
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 05:19 PM |
|
19th Post |
swampshooter
Moderator
| Joined: | Sun Aug 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 377 |
| Photo: | | | Are you a handloader?: | Yes | | Favorite type of cartridge to load?: | I load everything! | | My favorite chambering is:: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Paul B. I'm already old and arthritic, along with a bad back, and industrial asthma. I'm kinda like Bret Favre, I've retired from hunting 3 or 4 times. I'm not saying that there is no need for expensive premium bullets, I've used them quite a bit. I'm just saying they are not desireable when shooting deer with standard, non-magnum cartridges, and frequently the same is true for elk.
____________________
NRA Endowment member
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 17th, 2009 11:54 PM |
|
20th Post |
miestro_jerry
Administrator
back to top
|
I am with Swampshooter on that one. I haven't retired from hunting yet, but life given me some health complaints that are wearing on me.
I may get an aluminum bat, maybe at a garage sale. I plan on keeping a 12g single shot next to the back door.
AS that I am hunting in more than my backyard, but in other state and Ontario, Saturday Katie and I will be hunter safety class together. She still hasn't fired a gun.
So we will be out with a 22 rifle using shorts and working our way up to probably 30-30 and 12g shotguns.
Jerry
____________________
No Goats, No Glory
NRA Benefactor Member
Ohio Rifle and Pistol Association Member
The Cast Bullet Association
Bethesda Farmers and Sportsmen Club
ODNR Certified and Licensed Hunter
|
| Current time is 04:58 AM | Page: 1 2 3   |
|
