| Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 02:40 AM |
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21st Post |
Don Fischer
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Boy what a crew! I only got one knee needs replaced, the other is lame from coming off a horse last month, steel plate holds my pelvis together, another horse! Arthritis in my shoulder's but I'm damn good looking! Oh yea, left hip screwed up from the first horse; dislocated when I seperated the pelvis. Any charming young ladies courious to know, yes, I do still dance, slowly!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 03:01 AM |
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22nd Post |
Charley
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Don Fischer wrote: Boy what a crew! I only got one knee needs replaced, the other is lame from coming off a horse last month, steel plate holds my pelvis together, another horse! Arthritis in my shoulder's but I'm damn good looking! Oh yea, left hip screwed up from the first horse; dislocated when I seperated the pelvis. Any charming young ladies courious to know, yes, I do still dance, slowly!
Jeez, you sound like Tiger Man McCool in Bobby Bare's The Winner.
THE WINNER
Recorded by Bobby Bare
Written by Shel Silverstein
The [C]hulk of a man with a beer in is hand
Looked [Glike a drunk old fool
And I knew if I hit him right
Why I could [C]knock him off-a that stool
But ever'body they said "Watch out,
Hey, that's [F]Tiger Man McCool"
He's had a [G]whole lot of fights
And he's always come out a [C]WINNER
[G]Yea!, he's A [C]WINNER.
But I'd had myself about five too many
And I walked up tall and proud
I faced his back and I faced the fact
That he had never stooped or bowed
I said, "Tiger Man, you're a pussycat"
And a hush fell on the crowd
I said let's you and me go outside and see
Who's A WINNER.
Well, he gripped the bar with one big hairy hand
And he braced against the wall
He slowly looked up from his beer
My God, that man was tall
He said boy, I see you're a scrapper
So just before you fall
I'm gonna tell you just a little
'Bout what it means to be A WINNER.
He said "Now you see these bright white smiling teeth
You know they ain't my own
Mine rolled away like chicklets
Down the street in San Antone
But I left that person, cursin'
Nursin' seven broken bones
And he, uh, only broke, uh, three of mine
That makes me THE WINNER."
He said "Now behind this grin, I got steel pins
That holds my jaw in place
A trophy of my most successful
Motorcycle race
And each morning when I wake and touch
This scar across my face
It reminds me of all I got
by being A WINNER."
"Now this broken back was a dying act
Of a handsome Harry Clay
That sticky Cincinnati night
I stole his wife away
But that woman she gets uglier
And she gets meaner every day
But I got her, boy
that's what makes me A [C]WINNER.....Change to ...[D]
[D]He said "You gotta speak loud when you challenge me son
'Cause it's [A]hard for me to hear
With this twisted neck and these migrane pains
And this [D]big old cauliflower ear
And if it wasn't for this glass eye of mine
Why, I'd [G]shed a happy tear
To [A]think of all you're gonna get
By being A [D]WINNER."
I got ar-th-rit-ic elbows, son
I got dislocated knees
From pickin' fights with thunderstorms
And chargin' into trees
And my nose's been broke so often
I might lose it if I sneeze
And son, you say you
still wanna be A WINNER."
"Now you remind me a lot of my younger days
With your knuckles a-clenchin' white
But boy, I'm gonna sit right here
And sip this beer all night
And if there's somethin' that you gotta gain or prove
by winnin' some silly fight
Well, OK, I quit, I lose
You're THE WINNER."
Oh, I stumbled from that barroom
Not so tall and not so proud
And behind me I still hear
the hoots and laughter of the crowd
But my eyes still see and my nose still works
And my teeth are still in my mouth
And you know, I guess that
Makes me THE WINNER.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 03:48 PM |
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23rd Post |
klallen
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Paul B wrote: I tend to consider the ballistic Tip a semi-premium bullet and the Accubond a premium bullet partially based on price.
Consider this. When John Nosler was running the show,the ballistic Tips came 100 to the box. When he retired, his son took over, reduced the amount of bullets to 50 to the box and kept the same price.  What's with that, other than pure greed? Did the ballistic Tips all of a sudden become more expensive to make? And why drop one of their most popular bullets in favor of a another that while accurate, was not quite as efficient in the game fields? The price on the partitions nearly doubled as well. Gusee he wanted more money to pay for nother trip to Africa or something. Who knows?
The solid base bullet which were better than the ballistic tips also came in boxes of 100, but were dropped. When they came back, 50 to the box. I still have a few of those 100 to the box bullets in 7MM for my 7x57, both ballistic Tips and Solid base. I use them sparingly.
Paul B.
morning, p b. nosler product has been in 50-count boxes since i started reloading hard and heavy. i know no different, so it isn't a big deal to me.
over the course of time and experimentation, the ballistic tip, and now these accubonds have continued to prove themselves as a consistently accurate bullet, used in a wide array of deer appropriate cartridges from the .243 caliber class up through .308 . and giving on game performance that i've come to expect and rely on. any more, i don't even look at price (or another product). whenever a load development project comes around, i simply look for the accubond in the caliber i'm working in, weight class i want, and buy. ratty ole .270's the current project rolling with a new load needing to be developed for the 130 gr. accubond. box i'm using there cost me $21.59, or 43 cents per ... truth be told, hadn't even noticed. with what they're asking for rifles and glass these days, cost for the reloading components i choose to use don't phase me.
looking in the safe, i guess alot of my deer rifles do tend towards the magnum velocities levels. poor quality bullets and high fps don't really match up all that well.
i don't really care what folks use. if it works for them, outstanding. lots of good choices out there. funny thing is, usually it's the old timers that get all high-n-mighty on themselves, thinking they know something the rest of us don't cause they're using a blue-light-special bullet and getting buy. lol. amusing. after you been loading for a while, there really isn't any secrets out there left undiscovered. no matter how many years into this you have. it isn't rocket-science, that's for sure.
i might spend a little more then others, or a little less, feeding my deer rifles but one thing i know without doubt, is with the components that i choose to use in handloads that i put together for my specific rifle, i'm getting exactly the performance that i want in accuracy, ballistics and on game. in the end, that's all it's about.
saving a couple cents here and there don't mean squat. 
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A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 04:15 PM |
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24th Post |
miestro_jerry
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When I am not using cast bullets for deer size hunting, I use Barnes TSX bullets, Berger Match Hunting and Sierra Game King bullets in my 308 and now my 30-06. For my 30-30 I use the Hornady Interlock RN bullets.
I prefer cast, but do see a need for factory bullets.
Jerry
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NRA Benefactor Member
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The Cast Bullet Association
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ODNR Certified and Licensed Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 05:28 PM |
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25th Post |
swampshooter
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I do not consider the ballistic tip a premium bullet, even though it costs a little bit more than most cup and core bullets. It is actually very similar to the old Remington Bronze Point bullet, performance is very similar also. I would consider the Nosler AccuBond a premium bullet, also Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, Barnes Triple Shock X-Bullets, Swift A-Frame & Scirocco II and the daddy of them all, the Nosler Partition. If someone wants or feels he needs to use these bullets when deer hunting, then that is a personal decision, but I fail to see how one of these bullets can kill deer any deader than dead. Hit in the correct spot, a Sierra, Speer, Hornady,Remington, or Winchester cup and core bullet of appropriate caliber and weight will kill deer every time and shoot 1" or less in a good rifle. I personally fail to see what is gained by paying twice as much for my bullets. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
I do strongly believe in using the premium bullets in high velocity rounds when hunting game that might be over 400 pounds. When I have licenses for more than one species, such as Colorado's or Montana's elk seasons I've always loaded premium bullets. On the occasions when I've taken deer on these hunts the premium bullets have always worked O.K., but I have noticed that they produce a longer, narrower wound and kill a little slower, although it never resulted in a lost animal or even a long, difficult trailing job.
I do remember when the Ballistic Tip first came out, and the first time I saw a box of them at the local gun shop there was 50 to a box. I vaguely remember 100 round boxes but if they were ever packed 100 to a box it was for a very short period of time. the Ballistic Tips predecessor, the Solid Base was always packed 100 to the box.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 06:33 PM |
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26th Post |
miestro_jerry
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I liked those Remington Bronze tipped bullets. Most factory bullets in an appropriate cailber will take a deer. Dead is Dead!
Jerry
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NRA Benefactor Member
Ohio Rifle and Pistol Association Member
The Cast Bullet Association
Bethesda Farmers and Sportsmen Club
ODNR Certified and Licensed Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 08:49 PM |
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27th Post |
Paul B
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Jerry. I'm like you in one aspect. I use my own cast lead bullets in the 30-30 nd see no need for jacketed bulets, although i have them if I need them in factory ammo. When a store closed down and they liquidated everything, I got 27 boxes of Winchester 170 gr. ammo for $4.00 a box. I bought all they had. 
Looking at some of the answers to my question about "needing" premium bullets for deer, I feel there is more of a case for "want" rather than "need", and that's OK.
Any cup and core bullet at 2800 FPS or less will work just fine, some a bit better than others depending on construction. It's when velocity goes above 2800 FPS that the need for stronger bullets arises, IMHO. To be perfectly honest, a .300 magnum at 300 plus yards is more like a 30-06 or .308 Win. in velocity at that distance.
In 60 years of hunting deer, I've only lost two animals, one in using the wrong bullet and the other because the bullet hit bone and possibly blew up and a trashed knee. The wrong bullet was in the 7x57 Mauser many years ago using the Federal brand 175 gr. round nose bullet. At the time, finding 140 gr. loads was almost impossible and Norma 150 gr. loads were considered too hot for use in a 93 Mauser.I know I hit the drer as there was blood and fat on the ground, plus a bit of lung tissue. What little blood trail there was petered out in just a few yards and although my wife and i look for the est of the day we never did find it. The deer was shot at around 8 in the morning and we searched till dark. I still feel bad about that one and it's been 36 years since that disaster. 
The other lost deer also was with the 7x57 shooting a 140 gr. ballistic Tip at 2800 FPS MV. Deer was maybe 100 yards out, not much further if even at 100 yards. At the shot, there was the sharp crack of the bullet hitting bone and the deer left he herd and headed down into a gully. As I went up the ridge to where I'd hit the deer to try and pick up a blood trail, I twisted my right leg and tore the cartilige in my knee. I did try to walk some more to locate the deer, but the pain was too great and I feared doing more damage to the knee. After surgery and now 6 years later, that knee still is a problem. I still think the doctor screwed up when he did the knee. It took two cortisone shots about two weeks before my antelope hunt last month so that I could do whatever walking was necessary. I'm not looking forward to having that knee replaced but it may come to that somewhere down the road. Whatever, the only way I'll stop hunting is if they make it illegal or I'm dead, whichever comes first.
Paul B.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 10:41 PM |
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28th Post |
wheezengeezer
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The way I see it,bullet performance will not be the same for similar type of shots.It is kinda like load data.It will vary depending on the many variables.Out of the same box I have had a lot of difference with similar type of hits.I like the 06 children for deer.25,264,and 270 I use.I do get tired of bloodshot meat.That is why I have gone to the accubond.So far it looks good but sometime the bad performing shot may happen.
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I was raised in the 50's on gunpowder and jackrabbits.salt and pepper wooda made'em taste better
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 11:19 PM |
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29th Post |
Don Fischer
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The origional question was "do we need them". Obviously we don't. Game was killed very well for a long time befor they came out. Where I get a twist in my skivies is when it is suggested to new people that without them they have a disadvantage, they don't. Some people really feel they are necessary, they are not. And remember it is "are they necessary" not "are they better".
I use Hornady and have for a very long time, they have never failed me. Why would I change? By far the most important thing about cleanly killing an animal is how you use what you have, including the bullet.I would not suggest shooting a light varmit type bullet at a deer but, but I could get away with it on every shot. It is what you do with what you have.
I also have no problem with anyone that uses premium bullet's, even thought of it myself when Hornady came out with the bonded bullet. But then I asked myself why and couldn't answer it. Choose the bullet you want and use it well, it will all work out if you do your part.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 11:31 PM |
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30th Post |
miestro_jerry
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My cast bullets for deer are a bit on the soft side. They deform instead of breaking up. A good clean shoot with any appropriate bullet will do the trick, because a good hunter know what his rifle or pistol can do.
Do we need premium bullets, not really. I think the basic ball round the millitary uses is still in service and still kills in the right hands.
Jerry
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NRA Benefactor Member
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The Cast Bullet Association
Bethesda Farmers and Sportsmen Club
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18th, 2009 11:39 PM |
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31st Post |
woodsman777
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I prefer a barnes bullet any day expensive yes,
but for me the performance speaks for it self ,
next choice the accubonds ,good stuff,
but I've killed plenty with the old core-loct bullet.
In the end It comes down to shot placement ,knowing your weapon and quarry
then being realistic about your own abilities & limitations.
a guy's going to buy what he likes ,what he can afford ,
and most important what works for him.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19th, 2009 02:49 AM |
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32nd Post |
wheezengeezer
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When it gets down to it,I like to eat right up to the bullet hole.Almost any bullet will put down a deer with reliability.I just dont like the mess some leave behind. Last edited on Sat Sep 19th, 2009 12:51 PM by wheezengeezer
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I was raised in the 50's on gunpowder and jackrabbits.salt and pepper wooda made'em taste better
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19th, 2009 02:58 PM |
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33rd Post |
saddlesore
HB certified Master Handloading and Ballistics advisor
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I'm one of the old farts, if it ain't broke , don't fix it crowd.
Hope I don't offend, but to me, using a pricey bullet when a std cup and core will work is about like paying a $100 lady of the evening the $100 for a $5 oral sex job. ( you can put in your own more well known words here)
When you are all done, you feel the same, but are out $95 .
The std arguments are :
The bullet is the cheapest part of the hunt.
I want the added insurance of a good bulllet
I want a bullet that will get the job done when all goes bad, not just when all is perfect.
I'd wager I have killed as many elk as most folks and probably more than most even. Deer,I have no idea, but certainly not as many as the states that allow one day for a month. I have used a wide variety of cartridges to do so from a 44 mag to a 7 mag, although mostly an .06 or .308.
In 40+ yrs, I have lost one deer, shot with a Remington Bronze point ( considered a premium back in the60's) and one elk, with a prtaition, also considerd a premium back in the early 70's. Of all the deer and elk I have killed ,sadly, I remember those two incidents beter than all the one shot DRT kills. Both were failures on my part,and not the bullet.
Therefore, when I drop the hammer on an animal now, everthing has to be good. Too many guys use the super tough /premium bullets as a crutch for poor shooting abilities and to be able to take shots that most should pass up, in my opinion.
Use a bullets designed to take the game you are hunting,and if you handload, ,load it to the velocities it was designed to perform at . The go out and put the bullet where it needs to go,and you will never ask the question: Do I need a premium bull;et?
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19th, 2009 04:10 PM |
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34th Post |
klallen
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one of the funnier conversations i had with an older gentleman took place at a local shop and covered several topic. he was an expert on all, of course. lol. some oldtimers are priceless. anyway, just so happens i had a box of 180 accubonds (for my warbird) and 160 accubonds (for my 7rum) in hand at the time. he saw that and went off, expounding upon the virtues of the bullets of yesterday. cheap as they get, all that's needed, good as they get, was the basic theme. none of this new fangled, expensive stuff need apply. i road that one out for a bit throwing my reasons out every so often why i chose the accubonds for the cartridges that i use (which seemed to fall on deaf ears ... probably literally). topic kinda morfed (thankfully) to rifles and scopes. told him my warbird was a sako but that i liked savage & ruger, among others. i was all over the place with scopes, finding that most anything worked well if a little $$$ was spent. here's where it got funny. he was a weatherby / leupold man. period. top of the line, too. nothing else mattered. best products on the market. the real deal. nothing else compared in workmanship and performance. top end leupold's sat atop all his top end weatherby's. happened to be standing in front of the nib savage section at the shop. took the opportunity to ask the obvious ... why pay $1200 for a mark v when he could spend $400 for a stevens 200 in the same cartridge and enjoy the same performance. he was floored. totally floored by the suggestion. i didn't even get to suggesting a cheaper scope would serve his needs just as well. needless to say, the correlation between the previous topic and the latter was lost on him.
it was perfectly fine to spend hundreds, maybe thousands more for top end scopes and rifles, yet the thought of spending a couple dollars more for a box of "premium" bullet was unthinkable. it's all pretty silly, really. topic here is what do we really need for deer hunting? forget the bullets for a sec. consider the rifle/scope you're using. do you really need to spend whatever it was you spent on the combo when you surely could have spent less and got just aswell a performing rig? one thing to consider, like the old guy at the shop i mentioned above ... it's fine to preach the virtues of cheapo bullets but ya better be using cheap rifles and scopes, too. the sermon kind of looses some luster if you claim you need only cheap bullets but must have $2K rifle/scope combo's to shoot them.
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THE DUKE
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19th, 2009 06:36 PM |
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35th Post |
Rockydog
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If using standard bullets one has to keep in mind what they were designed for. When I first started reloading for 8mm Mauser I was using Hornady RN 170 grainers. These were designed for use in the Mauser and most people underloaded them severly in this country as everyone was scared that there might be .319 bore guns out there. Most loads and load data was in the .30-30 class. I was loading a 98 up to the velocities the rifle was designed for. These bullets performed very poorly. Very accurate but virtually turned to shrapnel on impact. Deer often went further than they should have including a large buck that took 30 hours to find and was spoiled when recovered. From those I went to 180 gr. Nosler BT. Dropped deer like the hammer of Thor but lost a lot of meat to bullet damage. Now I'm using Hornady 195 Grain or 180 Grain Remington Core locts. Both perform very well on big Wi. whitetails.
I'm sure there are people out there who might reload .308 FN designed for 30-30 in full house 06 loads or .243 varmit grenades for deer loads. They'll work, sometimes. Paying attention to the intended use for bullets counts too. RD
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19th, 2009 06:49 PM |
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36th Post |
saddlesore
HB certified Master Handloading and Ballistics advisor
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I don't preach any sermons. I shoot a pre 64 Winchester featherweight inherited from my father in law. Cost $0. Before that a Model 88 that I paid $136 for. They both wore old Weaver 2.5-7 scopes that cost about $50.
A few years ago a fellow gave me a new leupold in return for taking him elk hunting.The weavers work as well.Other rifles in my safe are a sportorized .6.5 Swede that I paid $38 for and have about $100 in trigger and scope in it. The other is a Marlin 44 mag carbine that I paid about $299 for as I remermber. Other than a muzzle loader, a CMP Garand, a few handguns, and a few 75 yr old double shotguns, that is it.
So I guess that and being past 65 qualifies me to be able to expound on the excellent capabilities of good old cup and core $20/box bullets.
Trouble with a lot of this younger set is they can't hear with thier mouth open or buy into every marketing ploy that comes along.
Too many guys think by paying that extra dollar it will make up for thier so called bullet failure they had, when in fact they probably made a bad shot and blamed the bullet.
Like old bull elk, we didn't get old by being stupid.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26th, 2009 08:14 PM |
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37th Post |
chucksniper
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depends on the shot angle.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26th, 2009 09:45 PM |
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38th Post |
Gutshot
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Remember Warren Page's famous quote" At which point in the animal's death did the bullet fail?" I don't use so-called premium bullets. I've killed most of my game with Speer spire points. Lately I've been using Hornaday in my 270 Win. and 308 Norma Mag. Seems to better in the accuracy department. This year hope to use Berger's VLD's in 130 grn. for the 270 Win. Heard a lot about them and want to see for myself. They will be my first high priced pills I have bought except some Speer Grand Slams that I used on elk that didn't expand. They were the 130 grn. .277 cal varity
Gutshot
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26th, 2009 10:42 PM |
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39th Post |
chucksniper
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some Speer Grand Slams that I used on elk that didn't expand.
There ya have it.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27th, 2009 12:46 AM |
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40th Post |
miestro_jerry
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I use cast bullets for a great deal of my hunting, these are cast to the needs, so they can be soft or very hard. A flat nose bullet is sometimes better that spire point bullets.
But the bullets I use, I make, so they are Premium Bullets, because all of the skill and pride that go in to my casting.
Jerry
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No Goats, No Glory
NRA Benefactor Member
Ohio Rifle and Pistol Association Member
The Cast Bullet Association
Bethesda Farmers and Sportsmen Club
ODNR Certified and Licensed Hunter
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