| Posted: Thu Jan 12th, 2006 06:19 PM |
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PhilLozano
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The big bores get 'all the press' and little of the action on most safaris. The 'Working' rifle gets used most of the time. Animals from a 10 lb. Dik Dik to the 1,800 lb. Eland.
Ok, time to step on toes. List your choices.
I have strong opinions on what I think, let's hear your choices.
Best,
Phil
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12th, 2006 08:28 PM |
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klallen
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I'm kinda torn. I've got four sporter weight rifles that I'd love to have with me if I were to ever make a hunting trip to Africa :
Ruger M77 Mark II .264 WinMag loaded with a 120 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip.
Springfield 1903 .280 Ackley Improved loaded with a 140 gr. Nosler AccuBond.
Sako TRG-S 7.82 Warbird loaded with a 200 gr. Nosler AccuBond.
Ruger M77 Mark II .358 STA loaded with a 280 gr. Swift A-Frame.
If I wasn't going to be hunting anything larger then our Mulies, I wouldn't mind having either of the smaller two with me. But the STA was built for my elk hunting needs and I guess if I'm after everything on up to 1800 # Eland, that and it's A-Frame would probably be my primary rifle, with the Warbird serving back-up duties. >> klallen
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12th, 2006 09:08 PM |
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Big John
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Remington 700 bdl in 7mm Mag w/175gr SP
Lazermark Weatherby in 300 Wby Mag 220gr RN
McMillan Safari in 375 H&H 300gr RN
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12th, 2006 09:21 PM |
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Texasdoc
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Well for plains game it would be my 375 WSM or 300 Win Mag. the load for the 375 would be a 300grs. Barnes XBT or a Swift A-frame
For the 300 Win.mag. would be a 200gr. XBT or a 200gr. Accubond or swift .
The rifle I have these in are a Montana Rifle Co. 1999 action with a Lother Walther barrel and a HS Prec. Stock with a Burris 2.5 to 10 Black diamond for the 375WSM
the 300 Win Mag. is a Winchester Mod.70 Custom built by Rick Armour of KY. is a Shilen #4 27" SS barrel HS Prec. stock and Jewel Trigger set at 2.4Lbs. topped with a Burris 4.5 -14 Sig.
since I am planning a hunt with Phil in 07 I have been thinking about this for awhile and slowly working on loads for both.
Doc
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12th, 2006 10:52 PM |
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Leonard
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My PH owned two rifles, a silenced Sako in 222, and a 338Win. Mag.
So, I brought the limit, two rifles, into S. Africa, a 300Win. Mag and a 6MMRemington; which I intended to used primarily on jackals and caracals.
I shot every animal with that 6MM, never pulled the trigger on the 300 after sighting it in. That includes a few fair size animals, wildebeeste, kudu, blesbuck, wart hogs. I think I was a little disappointed, but that's the way things worked out. Of course, there was nothing dangerous on the laundry list.
Good hunting. LB
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13th, 2006 02:20 AM |
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PhilLozano
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Personally, I think some of the choices here are better than others.
I think there are some bullets that are quite 'light' for an Eland, Zebra, Sable, Roan etc..
I answered a post on the Barnes X in the bullet section of this forum regarding bullets.
Sorry, but I am sure I will step on some toes with this topic an my opnion.
Can only relate what I see or have seen.
However, sometimes I say one thing and don't heed my own advise. Yes, it's true, I shot a Zebra with a 243. I know Zebra are tough, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.
It was a L O N G tracking job, with more shots being fired. Finally, I got 500 grains of lead in him . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 100 grain at a time.
I will comment on the choices after a few more respond.
Best,
PhilLast edited on Fri Jan 13th, 2006 02:22 AM by PhilLozano
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13th, 2006 02:26 AM |
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Texasdoc
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Hey Phil, don't worry about stepping on Toes here. you have been there and done that and you are the pro on this .
All i can say is that I have taken your advice and started working on loads for the 300 Winny in the 200gr. line
Thanks for posting this as it makes you think
doc
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13th, 2006 04:40 AM |
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drinks
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A .243 with a 90-100gr load that is accurate to 300yds.
A .35 Whelen with a 214gr rn gc at 2600 fps, this gives me 1" at 100yds, I would take anything less than Elephant with it and Elephant if it was a heart/ lung shot from a reasonable distance, between 75 and 150 yds.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13th, 2006 05:11 AM |
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Leonard
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Make no mistake, I am not advocating a 6MM Remington as an all around plains game cartridge. Kinda like Phil said about plugging a zebra witha 243, what are you going to do, when the chips are on the line and that's all you have in your hands? On the other hand, (without bragging) I should mention that I had ALL one shot kills.
As to what might be the best choice for a "working rifle". I think, based on my conversations on the availability of factory ammunition in Africa, (although I used only handloads) that a 300 Win. Mag is a sound choice, based on what I saw. Any animal I killed with the 6MM, I could also have killed with the 300, and other than as a "back up" rifle, I would have no problem with a one gun 300 Win Mag battery, with carefully selected handloads.
Big five stuff? That's another very big subject. So, yes, you need a 416 or 375 for dangerous game, but for everything else, I can't see any reason why a 300Win Mag can't handle "working gun" chores?
......as long as you are honest in your ability to handle it.
Good hunting. LB
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14th, 2006 07:39 PM |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2006 06:33 AM |
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PhilLozano
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OK,
I am back from SCI and have a few minutes to put in my choices.
The first thing I would choose would be a heavy for caliber bullet in 7mm to 35 cals. and for sure not any kind of 'plastic' tipped bullet.
Yes they are accurate, but I have not seem good performance from them on larger African game.
I would choose (from small to large calibers) - 7mm Mag., 300 Mag., 338 Mag. and my beloved 35 Whelen.
All would work very well. Others will work as well, but these would be my choices.
For bullets I would choose 175's for the 7mm, 200's (or 220's) for the 300's, and 250's in the 338 and 35.
A 375 would be a good choice as well (but I think too much for many of the animals, but a reasonable choice).
None of these (except the 375) is adequate for dangerous game. Yes, they will kill them, but not really suited for DG.
In truth, bullet construction/performance is the key to all of these cartridges. Bullets I really like are, Woodleigh's and Swifts. Other custom bullet makers are good as well, but these seem the easiest to obtain.
OK, let the debate begin.
Best,
Phil
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2006 02:19 PM |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2006 05:54 PM |
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PhilLozano
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Big John,
I'd say you were a little closer that 'pretty close'.
About nailed it, guy.
As I said these are my choices and opinions from what I have seen that work pretty well on African animals.
Also, in the group I listed, some work better than others.
Best,
Phil
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25th, 2006 12:42 AM |
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Big John
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Well you know I just like those particular calibers, my favorite is the .300 Weatherby, it tends to want to kick my ass out of the tree stand but I like the result on the other end.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25th, 2006 04:47 AM |
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klallen
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PhilLozano wrote: The first thing I would choose would be a heavy for caliber bullet in 7mm to 35 cals. and for sure not any kind of 'plastic' tipped bullet.
Howdy PHILLOZANO >> Thought you forgot about this topic. Response has been a while coming. It is an interesting topic to me. This general aversion to "plastic tipped bullets" is a curiousity to me. Have you ever used or seen the new AccuBonds used on game over there?
Had conversations with several perfessional guides that happened to make the trip to town for a local outdoor / hunting / fishing show last year and it was interesting. Was chatting with one in particular that mentioned something that really stuck with me. We were talking about what was needed for successfully hunting in Africa on the game I would most be interested in hunting (cartridges, bullets and the like) and he said that some 80% - 85% of all huntable animals in Africa were of similar size or smaller then our Mule Deer species. Understanding the weights of the Mulies that "I" hunt, I took this to mean 80% - 85% of African animals might weigh in at 350# - 400#. Some, much, much smaller. And if we moved up to animals the size of our elk (800# - 1000#), that percentage grew to 95% of African game that was similar sized or smaller. He didn't specify, but I assumed the top 5% including the dangerous 5, the largest of African antelope, girrafe (sp) and other real big stuff. Really though, the conversation about the animals in that top 5% wasn't what interested me. The deer portion of the chat is what interested me most. He went on to say that any cartridge / bullet combo that we had confidence in, that had proven effective on Mule Deer would function wonderfully on the vast majority of anything that could be hunted with him over in his neck of the woods. We mentioned about the about the near mythical way in which African game was discussed. Their toughness and sheer unwillingness to die. He kinda chuckled and stressed that just like hunting deer over here, bullet placement over bullet construction was the important issue with game the size we were talking about. Of course, issues of importance changed when the size of animal hunted increased, but within the scope of our animals talked about, he said some things that I might have assumed but enjoyed hearing come from someone who'd hunted over there.
So, here's where my curiousity is raised from the above comment ... I've had resounding success with Ballistic Tips on Mule Deer over the years and have an extreme level of confidence in them on this sized game. Throw the bonded core AccuBond into the picture and I wouldn't hesitate to hunt Elk with the heavy for caliber offerings. Now, if the percentages quoted by this African feller be anywhere close to correct, would it be reasonable to expect the same level of success I've enjoyed on Mule Deer here in the states over in Africa on plains game that weight in at 400# and less? With what I've seen using the 160 gr. .284 and 200 gr. .308 AccuBonds, I just have a hard time warming to the idea that either of these wouldn't knock the hell out of anything of reasonable size that I placed a quality hit on, even with them being a poly-tipped bullet. Chat with ya later. >> klallen
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25th, 2006 08:15 AM |
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PhilLozano
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Bwana klallen,
Didn't forget, just been quite busy since getting back from TZ and organizing things for the hunting shows I attend. Additionally, I moderate more than a few sites. Have client inquiries to answer, plan schedules, etc.
Original question;
The big bores get 'all the press' and little of the action on most safaris. The 'Working' rifle gets used most of the time. Animals from a 10 lb. Dik Dik to the 1,800 lb. Eland.
Ok, time to step on toes. List your choices.
I have strong opinions on what I think, let's hear your choices.
Many cartridges and bullet combos will work.
As I have said, personally I prefer heavy for caliber bullets.
I have hunted in a few different countries in Africa and my suggestions/opinions are from my observation.
Shooting animals in S.A. is much different that shooting animals in Tanzania. Not saying one is better than the other, just different.
There is little to no predator pressure on the animals in S.A.. The animals in TZ have to be 'on alert '. Lions and Leopards etc. are quite 'available' and willing to find an easy meal.
I think that makes the animals tougher in general, because the weaker animals become a meal before they get a chance to grow to trophy size (not to say they will not succumb to a well placed shot). You just need to have a cartridge/bullet combo suited to the task.
I just think a heavier bullet delivers a bigger blow when it arrives at the target. Also the difference in trajectory is of no consequence to me as a drop of 6 inches is not much different than a drop of 4 inches, hence my preference for heavy bullets.
In the shooting of animals I have witnessed, the heavier bullet does a better job than a lighter bullet. Diameter, weight, bullet construction, weight retention and penetration will get the job done every time.
over in his neck of the woods.
Which would be where ? The Orange Free State is quite different shooting than in the Transvaal
Have you ever used or seen the new AccuBonds used on game over there?
No I have not used them. I only load for my double and use Woodleigh softs and solids. In my Lott I load Swift softs and Trophy Bonded solids.
I have had clients that have used 'tipped' bullets. They killed animals of the size you mention, 300 lbs, 400 lbs.. Could not find much of the bullets however, they pretty much came apart.
I can remember when I thought my 7 Mag. would drop anything that walked. Thought it was a lighting bolt on a piece of wood. I have used 160's and 175's in my 7mm. My observations are that with similar shot placement, the heavier bullets seemed to have a better effect on the animals. My 7 Mag. works in Africa. Just not as well as my original impressions. Diameter counts (as well as the other things mentioned). I still like my 7 Mag., it is just not the 'end all' I thought it was.
I know these 'new' style bullets will be the wave of the future, just personally, from what I have seen, I don't care for them.
Example; I know many people that love the X bullets. I have NEVER seen one work as advertised. Admittedly, I have not seen them used in a long time. Some of my clients tell me how well they work in other calibers. I have only seen them in 375 cal. and they may have changed them since. As I say on my forum, you either love em' or hate em', not many people on the fence with the X's.
Regarding the ballistic tipped bullets, what happens (I ask, cuz I don't know, because I do not see them used) when the animal moves a bit just when the shot goes off and you hit the leg bone of, say a Zebra or Sable (which are tough critters), or you are presented with a shot where you must drive the bullet pretty far back to reach the lung on the off side. Yes, you can pass on the shot, however, if you have a 'conventional' bullet, you can drive it home(IMO).
True, there are times when you must pass on a shot no matter what cartridge or bullet you have, as there is no chance of a quick kill.
As I said, toes will get abused on this one. Heck, I don't like the 375 H&H Mag. much, but I own one and it usually goes to the bush with me. Own 2 - '06's, don't care much for them either. They have never been to Africa with me. Will they work, without a doubt, they will. Personally, I choose the 7 Mag. over the '06. Goes against my 'diameter' reasoning, I just prefer the 7 to the '06. Dosen't make sense, that I would chose the 7mm over the '06. I think it is mostly because I have a nice load for 175's out of my 7 and I have shot many more animals with the 7.
Velocity is a double edged sword (IMO). It is great when you need it and not so hot if your bullet is not up to the task. And to back up a bit, what if that bad angle or leg hit on that Zebra or Sable was at 50 yards.
Ok, now about the velocity thing. As I am sure you know (or you would not be on this forum), the bullet has to 'match' the velocity and task it is asked to do.
When I first got my Lott, I got some Hornady 500 grain softs and loaded them to take with me for the season. Those bullets blew up after about 4 inches of penetration. Not much left of them either. They were designed to be pushed by a 458 Win. Mag. at about 2150 fps, and I was pushing them about 100 fps faster. 100 fps does not sound like a lot, but with them it was too much. The strain of 100 fps more, was too much, they just blew up on Buffalo.
I am not a ballistics expert, nor do I claim to be. I am SURE most people on this forum know much more about handloading than I. Once the bullets fly, and I have a chance to see what happens, I can only go by what I see and have personally done.
Sorry for the long text.
Best,
Phil
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27th, 2006 02:12 AM |
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Leonard
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Some "plastic tipped" bullets are different than others. A Hornady VMax is particularly explosive. Some Nosler Ballistic Tips are thicker jacketed. I have killed a few large animals with BT and they work fine.
Now, I'm NOT the seasoned African hunter, but mention was made of toughness of African game animals. My jaw dropped at some of the runners I saw, yes transvaal, but I did not get a single bang/flop on any animal besides jackal. Every one of them ran off. I believe the legend, these animals were tougher to kill than a mule deer. One trip doesn't mean that much, but like the man said; that's all I got to go by.
Good hunting. LB
PS, Kirby, if you didn't know, I killed four hogs with my 223Ackley and the 55 VMax down in Texas, one was close to 200 pounds.
(edit: hogs were all one shot, three head shot, one lung)
Last edited on Fri Jan 27th, 2006 02:14 AM by Leonard
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27th, 2006 12:17 PM |
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HollandNut
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Critters I go after ??
Use my Number One 375 with 235's , 260's or 270's
CZ 550 458 Lott with 465's
Jack
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LilMag
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Phil I don't cotton to little calibers like the .270 Winchester or even the 6.5 x 55 Swiss (264 Win mag as well) hunting African game animals. I have seen my share of off center hits and lost animals by other hunters. I do believe that a larger caliber does a better job, mind you I am NOT contending that one should just carry a big caliber if they can't shoot. Nothing is going to make up for marksmanship!
However, what I am saying is that calibers like the .358 or .338 mag do a bang up job on plains game or elk verses the smaller calibers. I also like those heavier bullets, which generally speaking penetrate deeper and leave more of a wound channel than the smaller faster calibers. I have used the .338 Win mag (225 grn bullets) and the Remington 416 before as my African battery. Next time out, I will leave the .338 Win mag at home and bring the .375 Weatherby instead as my smaller rifle in the battery.
Last edited on Fri Oct 5th, 2007 03:58 AM by
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PhilLozano
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Hi Ball wrote:Nothing is going to make up for marksmanship!.
Truer words were never spoken.
Hi Ball wrote:I have used the .338 Win mag (225 grn bullets) and the Remington 416 before as my African battery. Next time out, I will leave the .338 Win mag at home and bring the .375 Weatherby instead as my smaller rifle in the battery.
Not a bad idea. The 375 Weatherby with good bullets is a very good killer.
I am not so sure I would leave the 338 behind (it just depends what is on the menu) as it is so versitile in Africa.
I am picking up a client tonight and we will be off in the morning for a long safari. He is bringing one of my favorite combo's . . . . . a 300 Winnie and a 416 Rigby. A versitile combination. We will run the table (hopefully) on different sized game.
He really wants a Roberts gazelle, so 1 day in Maswa, then on to Rungwa for Greater Kudu and Roan. Those are what he is really after. However, he said he will also shoot Sable, Buffalo, Eland and we more than likely will give Lion and Leopard a go. Although we will hunt hard until we take the Roan and Kudu first (he is after his pinnacle of achievement with SCI, so the first 3 are the most important), I would really like to give the "cats" a go as they are of very good quality in Rungwa.
See you back here in a few weeks.
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