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Cartridges and bullets for Africa

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LilMag
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Posted: 8 October 2007 11:24 PM

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Phil, it sounds like we agree on several issues as far as calibers and animals go. Good Luck to you and your client on this hunt!!! I myself expect to shoot only good representatives of those particular animals on my list. Send me a PM later and we can speak more of hunting in Tanns OK.

Last edited on 8 October 2007 11:25 PM by LilMag

Rapier
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Posted: 2 November 2007 05:51 PM

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Phil,

I asked my PH the same question before I left for the RSA. He said; 'You got a 30-06?"

So I took my 300 WSM gun with a Montana Rifle Co action. Which was OK, but I found the 06 referal to be quite telling. I go here and there and always ask. The answer is 9x10, bring an 06.

Were anyone to ask me I would say the same thing, bring an 06 and bring it in a pre 64 Win 70 or Classic Win M-70.

Ed

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Posted: 2 November 2007 08:30 PM

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PhilLozano wrote:
OK,
I am back from SCI and have a few minutes to put in my choices.

The first thing I would choose would be a heavy for caliber bullet in 7mm to 35 cals. and for sure not any kind of 'plastic' tipped bullet.

Yes they are accurate, but I have not seem good performance from them on larger African game.

I would choose (from small to large calibers) - 7mm Mag., 300 Mag., 338 Mag. and my beloved 35 Whelen.

All would work very well. Others will work as well, but these would be my choices.

For bullets I would choose 175's for the 7mm, 200's (or 220's) for the 300's, and 250's in the 338 and 35.

A 375 would be a good choice as well (but I think too much for many of the animals, but a reasonable choice).

None of these (except the 375) is adequate for dangerous game. Yes, they will kill them, but not really suited for DG.

In truth, bullet construction/performance is the key to all of these cartridges. Bullets I really like are, Woodleigh's and Swifts. Other custom bullet makers are good as well, but these seem the easiest to obtain.

OK, let the debate begin.

Best,
Phil

I will revise this a bit.

The 7mm Mag and 300 would be needed on a Masailand hunt as the shot distances on some Firnge Eared Oryx can be quite far.

Other than that, I will pretty much stick with my choices.

When clients as me what to bring, I tell them to bring a 338 Winnie and a 416 of any variety.

That combo is about as good as you can get.

The 338 throws a big slug and is pretty flat shooting to boot. The 416's will take care of the 'big nasties', the 338 will take care of everything else.

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Posted: 2 November 2007 09:22 PM

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Phil,

I own a 338 WM / 7mm RM switch barrel gun built on a Win 70 Classic action. What kind of trouble would I have getting it in country?

Ed

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Posted: 3 November 2007 02:17 AM

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Hi Phil, I'm planning to load my CZ 550 in 375 H&H with the 350 grain Woodleigh Protected Points and Solids (they just arrived). I've also been been thinking of having it rechambered to 375 Weatherby, thinking a 350g Woodleigh at 2550 fps would be nice. I figue I can load my 375 H&H to 2350 fps with the same bullets, both loads being well below max pressure. Do you recommend I keep my rifle at 375 H&H or rechamber? Right now I'm thinking leave well enough alone.

Thanks,

Chuck

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Posted: 3 November 2007 06:28 AM

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Rapier wrote:
Phil,

I own a 338 WM / 7mm RM switch barrel gun built on a Win 70 Classic action. What kind of trouble would I have getting it in country?

Ed

In Tanzania, no problem at all. Other countries, not sure. I have not hunted any other place in a long time (15+ years).

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Posted: 3 November 2007 06:39 AM

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chuckscap wrote:
Hi Phil, I'm planning to load my CZ 550 in 375 H&H with the 350 grain Woodleigh Protected Points and Solids (they just arrived). I've also been been thinking of having it rechambered to 375 Weatherby, thinking a 350g Woodleigh at 2550 fps would be nice. I figue I can load my 375 H&H to 2350 fps with the same bullets, both loads being well below max pressure. Do you recommend I keep my rifle at 375 H&H or rechamber? Right now I'm thinking leave well enough alone.

Thanks,

Chuck

Chuck,

Thanks for the post. I have not seen the 350 grain Woodleigh Protected Points in action, so cannot comment on their performance.

I like Woodleigh's and they are all I shoot out of my double. They have performed very well for me in some bad situations.

I would leave your rifle a 375 H&H for now.

Have a look at what kind of velocity you are getting from them before considering a rechamber job.

Again, it depends on what you expect out of your 375. If going for Buffalo and not considering your 375 for a plains game hunt, the rechamber might be worth it.

As is, with good bullets and good shot placement, the 375 is enough for most DG in most situations.

Personally, I have a CZ 375 H&H that I loan to clients. My rechanber job will be to take it from 375 to 416 Remmie, which I think it more worth the money as far as upgrading a 375.

But as I said, for now, I'd leave it alone.

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chuckscap
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Posted: 3 November 2007 03:01 PM

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Thanks Phil,

Chuck

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LilMag
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Posted: 3 November 2007 11:50 PM

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Chuck, I think your right about leaving your .375H&H as is! I once rechambered my model 70 .375H&H to the .375 Weatherby caliber. I never notice any difference in the way it killed animals but I surely did notice the amount of "recoil" it sent to my shoulder once the velocity got over 2400 fps. It didn't cost me much to get the job down by a gunsmith, around a $100 dollars or so but I still don't think it was worth the money OK. Also my .375H&H shot a lot tighter group than I could ever manage to get with the Weatherby rechambering. :sad:

chuckscap
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Posted: 4 November 2007 12:10 AM

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I'm convinced, a 375 H&H it stays. The cartdrige is a legend too. Norma sells their PH Ammo for the 375 H&H loading 350g Woodleigh power points and solids to 2300 fps for it too. So if I make it to Africa in the next four or five years I can use factory ammo should I want to.

Thanks for your advice and the benefit of your experience,

Chuck

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Posted: 6 November 2007 05:33 PM

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Three years ago, I booked a Cape Buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe along with Plains Game in Zimbabwe and PG at two other 'farms' in South Africa. For Buffalo I bought a Rem 700 in .375 Rem Ultra Mag. I re-stocked it (factory stocks are too short), made a couple of other modications, and worked up a load for it with the 300 gr Barnes TSX. It worked great for the Buffalo, and several other antelope from Chobe Bushbuck to Nyala. My load chronographed 2850 fps and would consistantly shoot MOA or less for 3 of the TSX's.

My Buffalo was a one shot kill, as were the antelope when the bullet was properly placed. The only bullet recovered was from the Buffalo, and it was the classic Barnes mushroom. Exit holes on the antelope, including the Bushbuck weren't much bigger than the mushroomed bullet.

My other rifle on that trip was another Rem 700 in 7mm Rem Mag. My load for this rifle was 160 gr Nosler Accubonds chronographed at 3015 fps, and they also grouped MOA or less for 3 shots. Exit holes weren't bigger than 1 1/2", but tissue damage inside was up to 6" in diameter.

This past September, I hunted 3 properties in the Eastern Cape of South Africa for antelopes found there. I wanted to only take one rifle, and my outfitter thought my .375 Ultra Mag would be the better choice as I might have to take a long shot on a Kudu or Eland in thick bush. The load I worked up for this hunt was the 270 gr Barnes TSX, chronographed at 3040 fps, and also MOA or less for 3 shots.

I was lucky enough to take 14 animals on this trip, and 12 were one shot kills. Shots ranged from 30 yds for my Eland to 348 yds for my Gemsbok (both later Lasered). My PH urged me to put a second shot into my Kudu as he didn't drop with the first shot and it was just minutes before sundown. We later found that my first TSX went through the left shoulder and stopped under the skin on the front of the right hip. This bullet was the classic TSX mushroom but one petal had broken off. The other animal that required a second shot was my Bontebuck that I shot at 300yds and didn't allow enough for the strong crosswind, and hit him too far back.

The .375 Ultra Mag was definately too much gun for the smaller antelopes and my Jackel and wasn't really needed for the larger antelopes, and my taxidermist will not be happy with several of those capes. In hindsight, my 7 RM would have worked just fine on everything.

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Posted: 6 November 2007 09:07 PM

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I'm not so sure you would have been better off. Sounds like you have had good experiences with the Barnes TSX's. I posted some photos here on some really bad experience I had with a client shooting TSX's out of his 7mm Mag.

His taxidermist will not be speaking to him again for some time. The holes in the capes are a shame.

Many say they have had the opposite experience with the Barnes bullets.

I WISH someone would come hunting with me and show me that they DO work as advertised, because personally, I have not seen very, very few work properly.

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Posted: 7 November 2007 05:56 PM

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Phil I have had an very long up and down relationship with those Barnes bullets in general over the years. It started with the Barnes X bullet and on to the XLC blue plate special. :lol:

I then scraped the whole idea (expensive too I might add, working up loads for several rifles) as results (bullets openng up and mushrooming properly) where never as satisfactory as other premium bullets.

I have stuck with the Nosler partitions on smaller game such as the mule deer and whitetail deer, why even Remington Core-Lokts were twice as dependable. The bigger game animals such as elk or moose and African plains game from impala to eland got a taste of those Trophy Bonded Bear Claws or the Swift A Frames.

The next time out the gate as far as the Dark Continent goes, will find my rifles using the Swift A Frames and Woodliegh solids. I am just NOT going to spend anymore time on Barnes bullets and the maybe this time they will work in my rifles. No thankyou sir! :sad:

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Posted: 7 November 2007 06:49 PM

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I shoot Woodleigh's out of my double, softs and solids. I like them and have not had a problem with them.

I have had clients bring Woodleigh's and Swifts with excellent success, no complaints there.

In my Lott I shoot Swift A frames and Trophy Bonded solids. No issues with them either.

Per sonally, I have never seen more than a few of the Barnes work well. The ones I have seen work well, HAVE NOT BEEN ON THE SAME SAFARI !

I have seen 1 work here, 1 there, but never on the same safari.

Many swear by them, but as far as I am concerned . . . . . . . you can have em'.

I am sure you saw the terrible holes in the capes I posted. It was a real shame. As I said, most people only hunt Lesser Kudu and Gerenuk once in their lifetime.

BRING ON THE SWIFT A FRAMES ! (are they good bullets ? Oh yeah !).

Last edited on 7 November 2007 06:52 PM by PhilLozano

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Posted: 7 November 2007 11:09 PM

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I am glad it is not just me that has had no luck with the Barnes bullets. The ones I shot in my 6.5x06 would not even expand, they just bent. I was working a load using wet sand as a backstop with the blue wonders.

Ed

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Posted: 8 November 2007 01:58 AM

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Rapier we tested those Barnes bullets in a stock tank filled with water! Many of those bullets did NOT open up or expand. This very fact is what turned me against using them again on a big game money hunt. The bullet must open up in order for it to do the damage neccessary to the vitals inside the animal. Other wise it is like shooting an animal with a field point on the end of an arrow. It makes for a very slow death indeed in most cases and lost trophy for the hunter. :sad:

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Posted: 8 November 2007 05:31 PM

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Have a look on this forum under "Barnes Triple Shocks are killers".

I cannot "get a grip"on what the hell these bullet really do !

Some act like solids and some are like varmint bullets.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

I have NO idea what the next TSX bullet will do ! Will it expand ? OR OVER expand ?

I don't have a clue.

Last edited on 8 November 2007 05:34 PM by PhilLozano

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Posted: 8 November 2007 06:33 PM

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I was being very kind before. Actually, I shot an entire box of 50 rounds, of XCLs, never got any expansion at all, no accuracy (6 inch groups) and ended up with a bore that had so much copper in it, it looked like ten miles of copper canyon, it took me a week to clean it up. I kept increasing the velocity thinking I would get something, finally at 3,150 with a 140, I blew a primer on the 3rd of 3 shots. When I looked down the bore I understood why, the bore had gone from 264 to 257 so the 6.5x06 was now a 25x06.

At the time I was the Industry Relations Director for an international shooting orginization. I wrote reviews of products for the monthly publication. So I dropped by the Barnes counter at the Shot Show. They were smiling when I showed up. They were not smiling when I left. I dropped a dozen of their bent bullets on the counter and the ouah, ouah dance started.

The thing I do not understand is the folks that swear that they get great performance. :confused:

Most times the hole in and hole out sounds like a military FMJ and you get "and the bullet was not recovered." These folks simply can not be looking at their fired bullets or using a standard stop to compare the effects.

Ed

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Posted: 8 November 2007 06:55 PM

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So . . . . . . what the heck is going on with these bullets ?

Do they work or not ?

I have no clue !

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Posted: 10 November 2007 01:45 AM

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Hi Phil, I can only tell you that I have at this time several boxes of those new Barnes TSX bullets downstaris locked up in my other vault. I started running tests on a box of 7mm mag bullets in the 160 grainer weight but did not complete all the testing at the beginning of the summer, it got to hot for me. They did shoot 1.25 inch groups (finally after a bakers dozen new loads tried) after I was able to dial in a particular load for that rifle. The velocity was in the area of 2900fps.

We also shot several of those Barnes TSX bullets, into the test tank but half a dozen bullets out of several boxes does NOT convince me, that all is well hunting with Barnes TSX bullets. I have been down that yellow brick road at least 3 times before with various Barnes bullets and things did NOT satisfy my wants or needs as a hunter after all was said and done savvy. :rolleyes:

The only good thing that happened with shooting those Barnes XLC blue bullets, was that I shot 2 one hole groups at the gun club, using my .338 magnum model 70 Winchester. However, those Barnes bullets, did NOT open up on a regular basis when shooting into our test tank. The other thing was, that I had gone way down in velocity shooting a 225 XLC weight bullet, in order to bring about these one hole shot groups. I was actually shooting below 2600fps instead of my 2800fps normal load using TBBC or Swift A Frame bullets.

Someday when I get lots and lots of time on my hands, (don't think that is going to happen anytime soon!) I jut might try once again for the umpteenth time, to get a real accurate load with a bullet that doesn't FRAG out or FAil TO Open!!! :sad:

Last edited on 10 November 2007 01:55 AM by LilMag

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