| Posted: Fri Jan 27th, 2006 05:20 PM |
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HollandNut
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So is the 458 winnie really a POS , or is she getting a bad rap ??
Well , we all pretty well know the story , Winchester wanted to build an economical alternative to the 470 NE , which is sort of the standard bearer of stoppers , against which all comers are judged .. They came up with the excuse of using a standard action , oppsed to a long magnum action , because you might short stroke it in a pee yur pants moment .. IMO was mistake #1 , we're talking a whole .3 inches here .. Mistake number 2 was not attaining the performance level of the 470 and releasing it anyways .. They had a bad run of bullets to begin with , which in their defense was corrected rather quickly ..
But it does work very well , and until the Lott and Capstick ( both based on the 375 H@H case ) gained acceptance , nothing much was said , then of a sudden , it was BAD medicine to use one ..
Yur thoughts ??
I have two :
One : they shud have bit the bullet and used what eventually became the Lott , a 2.8" Holland case , which many have said is what the round shud have been to start with
Two : the 465 grain bullets have given "new life " to the 458 winchester ..
In the end I think she just gets a bad rap , large caliber heavy bullets and mediocre velocities count for more than light bullets and every last foot of velocity you can obtain in the DG game ..
The late Finn Aagard said it was " all he ever needed " , and I'll take his word for it ..
Jack
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27th, 2006 09:25 PM |
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Leonard
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The Game Rangers in Kruger carry a 458WMag. for protecting the tourists. That's a bit of a recommendation, cost, utility, etc.
Good hunting. LB
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27th, 2006 09:42 PM |
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PhilLozano
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Mr. HollandNut,
So is the 458 winnie really a POS , or is she getting a bad rap ??
Yes, and no. Will it end the story ? Sure. But so will a 7x57 solid. Being able to put the bullet where you want it is key. Is it what it was designed to be ? Yes and no. Depends on the brand of ammo.
A friend and I just chronographed some 458 Winnie ammo (results on my forum). Have a look at what the conclusions were.
Winchester wanted to build an economical alternative to the 470 NE , which is sort of the standard bearer of stoppers , against which all comers are judged
I have a different story. Kynoc stopped making 'double rifle cartridges', and getting ammo for the British big bores was quite difficult. Bell (brass) and Huntingtons (RCBS dies) and custom bullet makers were the only options you had if you wanted to shoot a British big bore.
Winchester saw an opening and as the 2 1/2" case was all the craze at the time, they opened up one of the 2 1/2" 's to 458, stuffed it full of powder ( a new creation, ball powder) and had a look see at what it would do.
Now, the way I heard (and read) it, the 458 Winnie pushed a 510 grn. bullet at 2150 fps (or there abouts), which were identical ballistics to the forerunner of the cartridge that was considered the standard by which stopping cartridges were to be judged, the 450 3 1/4.
At first, the 458 Win. Mag. was HOT stuff. And it was very close in preformance to the big stoppers of 'years gone by'.
However, after the ammo got a bit old, erratic burning rates were discovered form the 'new' ball powder. Happened to a client of mine. He shot at a Buffalo from about 50 yards (and he was a reasonable shot), the bullet struck the ground 10 yards short of the Buffalo (the sights were OK). Later we tried the rifle again and sometimes it would hit the target and sometimes it was way short of hitting the target.
More than a few reports like this got back to Winchester. They said it was the shooters fault. After a ton of reports, they started to 'look into it'.
With old ammo, when they pulled the bullets, the powder came out in clumps the size of, say an apple seed.
Anyway, long story short, they down loaded their ammo. Was it enough to 'take care of business ? Kinda, it was not nearly what it was designed to be.
(I have related how my Lott came to life in other places on this forum, I think).
They came up with the excuse of using a standard action , oppsed to a long magnum action , because you might short stroke it in a pee yur pants moment .. IMO was mistake #1
Bwana, you are spot on with this one !. Whether it was a short stoke factor, or the 2 1/2 case craze, it was the # 1 screw up.
until the Lott and Capstick ( both based on the 375 H@H case ) gained acceptance , nothing much was said , then of a sudden , it was BAD medicine to use one ..
Experiments were alway on going with big bores. Wildcatters were constantly trying to see how much power they could get from a shoulder fired weapon. However, if you have ever thought about designing your own cartridge you know, Wildcats are VERY hard to catch on (see 35 Whelen). Also, look at the 416 Taylor. It was there, effective, loads developed, but Remington decided to design their own 416 which is not better or worse than the Taylor, AND they had to do the R&D on their dime.
The Lott and Capstick were Wildcats as well. Like the 35 Whelen, they developed a following. I have had a Lott for more than 10 years, before the factory loading and rifles appeared.
Now, back to your comment. You could not have been more correct in saying that IF WINCHESTER HAD MADE THE 458 WIN. MAG. ON A 375 H&H CASE, we would not be having this discussion They would have the # 1 stopper in the world, and the Lott, Capstick, Ackley would never had a following, or perhaps, not even been invented.
the 465 grain bullets have given "new life " to the 458 winchester
See the results on my web page. But you are not incorrect here.
Whew, tuckered out from this one. Makes my pea brain hurt.
I will address your 'sturing the pot # 2 later, after taking some asprin.
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Phil
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27th, 2006 11:10 PM |
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HollandNut
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Phil , I was / am well aware of yur long winded dissertation , but just did a brief overview of the issue , I heard all the things you said as well .. OK so I goofed , you were/are correct with the 450 3 1/4 ..
See you just came along and filled in all the stuff I didnt include ..
There were quite a few 45 wildcats based on the Holland case as well as others ..
Believe Mashburn did one as well .. The Van Horn is interesting too ..
I have a soft spot for the 416 Taylor , A few eons ago I had one built , it was the sixth one in existence at the time in the world .. Lost in a fire ..
I believe the only reason the Lott and Capstick , came out above the others , is even tho there were a few slight variations in people's ideas on the case design , ( they were all pretty much the same coming out the muzzle ) Jack Lott and Peter Capstick , being writers and tinkers had a following in print on a regular basis that the others didnt enjoy ....
Jack
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| Posted: Sat Jan 28th, 2006 12:29 AM |
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PhilLozano
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Bwana,
Don't know if you goofed. In actuality, all the 450's - 470 NE have almost identical ballistics.
As I have said, Jack made my Winnie a Lott. I think Art Alpin made the 470 Capstick originally.
Doesn't matter. The 450 NE, 470 NE and 470 Cap. are all up to the task when the 'it hits the blades'.
Also you are correct, the Mashburn and Van Horn's had a following, as did the Barnes Supreme.
As I said, guys will toy and build what ever they think is the most power (recoil) the body can stand (and keep standing). Yes they are heavy, but look, we have shoulder fired 50 BMG's, 600 NE's and the 3/4" water pipes, the 700 NE !
If one man can take the wheels off of it and get it to his shoulder, someone will try it !
However, for protecting your life (as a P.H.), there is more to think about than sheer power.
If you have a 45 cal. bullet of 500 grains moving at 2100 - 2200 fps., it is enough to take care of business.
Anyway, had Winchester MADE the 458 Lott originally, all of this stuff would just be like discussing history.
They really screwed up. It is not as if the Model 70 action was not long enough to handle the cartridge.
Heck, even if they would have chosen the Mashburn or Ackley, they would now be the 'Undisputed Champ' !
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Phil
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| Posted: Sat Jan 28th, 2006 12:51 AM |
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HollandNut
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I had read somewhere they were looking to match the 470 , but as you say is really a moot point , they're all pretty much the same ..
At any rate I just joined your forum .. Where is the chrony data in there ?/ Sounds interesting ..
Jack
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| Posted: Sat Jan 28th, 2006 01:09 AM |
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Timberghozt
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Experiments were alway on going with big bores. Wildcatters were constantly trying to see how much power they could get from a shoulder fired weapon. However, if you have ever thought about designing your own cartridge you know, Wildcats are VERY hard to catch on (see 35 Whelen). Also, look at the 416 Taylor. It was there, effective, loads developed, but Remington decided to design their own 416 which is not better or worse than the Taylor, AND they had to do the R&D on their dime.
Hey Phil,not to take anything away frpm you bud because I would not hunt African game without any outfitter besides you and thats a fact.Most of the real wildcatters tailor a round specific to their needs and with explicit thought about energy and ballistics as gained from the parent round and expected performance from the baby it spawns.Most wildcatters that are serious at it don`t really care for it to catch on.There is a certain air to having a cartidge ,you and you alone load and shoot......
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| Posted: Sat Jan 28th, 2006 02:53 AM |
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PhilLozano
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TG,
True enough. However, in the back of each inventors mind is a bit of entrepreneur, hoping their 'invention' catches on.
At least that was in my mind when I 'dreamed' mine up.
I think that in part, guys design a cartridge and know it is for them only, as for a company to 'pick it up' is a very long shot.
But here's something to think about. A guy that does design a cartridge, gets a rifle built for it, does he not try to convince his friends that it is a great cartridge with a useful purpose and urges them to have a rifle so chambered ?
I did. So, I would say, it is always in the back of their minds, even if tucked deep inside.
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Phil
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| Posted: Fri May 12th, 2006 12:02 PM |
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NOFX
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Phil,
Checked out the velocities of the .458 / .458 Lott and I really didn't think that the Lott had all that much over the Winchester. Only 100 - 150fps.
I knew the Winchester loads would give about 1900fps coz that's all they ever give. (I got a fraction over 2000fps in my CZ with 25" barrel.) In reality though what standard factory ammo gives the claimed velocity? I also believe that a dangerous game rifle will be fed handloaded ammo instead of WW 510 soft points anyway.
I was impressed with the Hornady ammo and if the bullets are nice and hard it should be very popular.
As a side note I was loading Woodleigh 550gn solids in my .458 and they were doing 2100fps in the 25" barrel and that was fair dinkum chronographed velocity. Man, I wouldn't have felt under gunned for anything with that load!
Cheers,
Russ
P.S. This is not a criticism or anything, just shootin' the breeze with ya..
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| Posted: Fri May 12th, 2006 05:02 PM |
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PhilLozano
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Bwana NOFX,
I will try to answer some of your observations.
I also believe that a dangerous game rifle will be fed handloaded ammo instead of WW 510 soft points anyway.
More people use factory ammo than you might think with Big Bore rifles. In fact, I would venture to say quite a high percentage of Professional Hunters do as well (I know many that do).
Checked out the velocities of the .458 / .458 Lott and I really didn't think that the Lott had all that much over the Winchester.
I got 2230fps with my Lott and it was not even close to a max. load. The data I used listed a max. load 3 grns. higher. I tried the max. load and did not have any signs of pressure. I did not chrono the max loads however, I just wanted to see if I was close to max. pressure (for later in the year when it is quite hot).
Only 100 - 150fps .
I got a fraction over 2000fps in my CZ with 25" barrel.
Have a look and see for yourself (your 2050fps Vs my 2230fps )
http://www.firearmexpertwitness.com/customguns/calcnrg.html
In reality though what standard factory ammo gives the claimed velocity?
The 458 Win and Lott, Hornady Heavy Mags were darn close !
(View results on my forum @ http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk)
I was impressed with the Hornady ammo and if the bullets are nice and hard it should be very popular.
Personally, I think the jury is still out on these bullets (at least for me). Maybe they are better in the Winnie than the Lott.
As a side note I was loading Woodleigh 550gn solids in my .458 and they were doing 2100fps in the 25" barrel and that was fair dinkum chronographed velocity.
Hard for me to see a Winnie, that will not do 2100 fps with a 500 grn. doing 2100 with a 550. NOT SAYING IT CANNOT BE DONE. Just find it hard to understand.
Man, I wouldn't have felt under gunned for anything with that load!
I agree, if you are getting 2100fps with a 550 grn., that is a potent combo ! ! !
I have no experience with the 550's, but a friend of mine tried some 600's in his Lott and he could not push them fast enough to make a huge difference from the 500's.
P.S. This is not a criticism or anything, just shootin' the breeze with ya..
No problem. If every one saw every thing the same, we would not have great forums like this place to come and share ideas/observations. And I look forward to any comments you may have about this subject, or any subject on African hunting / cartridges.
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Phil
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| Posted: Fri May 12th, 2006 10:50 PM |
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NOFX
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Phil,
That was no BS about getting 2100fps with the Woodleigh 550 grainers. I'll even give you the load.
Winchester brass, 74gns of AR206 & Winchester primers (not magnum). The Woodleigh is shorter so it loaded easy in the Winchester case. I'm not saying this velocity can be duplicated in all .458's but it reached it in mine with the 25" barrel. A fella was reviewing the same make as rifle a mine (CZ 550 Safari Magnum) in a local gun rag and he got 1975fps with the Barnes traditional 600gn bullet which I thought was pretty good considering how long the 600 grainer is.
I dunno maybe it's all in that extra inch of barrel? But I do know that the next .458 I buy is gonna have a 25" barrel instead of the usual 22". I reckon the better more reliable performance is worth the extra 3".
What do you think?
Cheers,
Russ.
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| Posted: Fri May 12th, 2006 11:39 PM |
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HollandNut
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HHMM NOFX you were getting 2100 with the Winnie ??
HHMM , he he ..
K
Last edited on Fri May 12th, 2006 11:41 PM by HollandNut
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| Posted: Sat May 13th, 2006 12:35 PM |
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PhilLozano
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NOFX,
Personally, I think a 25 " barrel is way too long.
Mostly I would say a barrel of 24 or 25 would not be a problem. But, sometimes in the bush when tracking a wounded __________ , you need to swing it around in tight quarters.
That aside, I guess it is personal preference.
My Lott has been cut back to 21" and it suites me fine.
Regarding the velocity of the Winnie Vs the Lott, even with the Winnie having a 25" tube (yours), you said you could not get much over 2000fps. My lott with a reduced load would do 20fps shy of 2250fps, with a 21" barrel (mine).
With that being the case, you had stated previously, you thought there was not much difference in the Winnie and the Lott. Off the 'get go' the Lott is more than 150fps faster and with a reduced load and shorter barrel. And with a 500 grain slug, that transforms into a good gain in energy at those velocities.Last edited on Sat May 13th, 2006 12:46 PM by PhilLozano
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| Posted: Sun May 14th, 2006 10:23 AM |
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NOFX
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Phil,
I hear what you're saying mate, and I know that the Lott out- performs the Win. It's a no - brainer the Lott fires the same weight bullet in a larger case that holds more powder.
I s'pose what I really mean to say is that today the Win does get a genuine 2100 - 2150 fps and surely that is adequate for all game. I know the Lott gives more but 2150fps with a 500 DG calibre.
Russ.
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| Posted: Wed May 17th, 2006 11:58 AM |
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PhilLozano
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Bwana NOFX,
I am sure you saw the results of the chronographing my friend and I did on the 458 Win. Mag. over at my site.
Personally, I think there are more questions still to be answered regarding the Win. Mag..
It seems the company that has reserected the 458 Win. Mag. is known for 'soft' bullets in this caliber (even the solids are 'soft'). If that has not changed, it will still not be up to par.
So, I think it remains to be seen if the Winnie will "cut the mustard" when the chips are down.
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Phil
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11th, 2006 06:12 PM |
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Riposte1
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I have never gotten to hunt Africa so take this as what it is...shooting the breeze. I do however have quite a few friends who have hunted Africa (lucky stiffs!) and so I base some of my conjecture on their experiences.
One of the most shocking was that a friend showed me a nicely mushroomed 510gr Win soft point and I asked what that came out of. I had visions of Kudu or Eland but alas it stopped in an Impala... an Impala (the antelope not he Chevy!!!!).
He also had brew ha ha when his hunting partner shot a cape buffalo repeatedly and often with a .375 - to no avail. As it ran by my buddy full tilt - close enough to almost touch the muzzle - he let fly into the neck with his .458. The buff was later brought to bag by a combination of 3 people shooting, and it was discovered that the .458 JSP (why he even had a JSP up is beyond me!) only penetrated the neck of the buff about 2 to 3 " and got nowhere near the spine.
When I purchased a CZ in .458 a while back I knew I was going to have it rechamberd but I set about testing some ammo (I have had other .458s but mostly handloaded for them). I grabbed up several boxes of ammo that I could find (some being old yellow box Win and some of later vintage) the 510 gr JSP or 500 FMJ loads clocked anywher between 1780 fps and 1900 fps but nothing broke 2000 fps from the long barrel!
Handloads are indeed a big improvement but one of my friends tried some P.O. Ackley loads from the 2 volume set and he ended up locking the bolt up in his Win. M-70. The factory was able to repair it with a new bold but said that the bolt lugs were nearly sheared!
My CZ is now a .458 Lott though I ended up having to add weight and a good recoil pad in order to be able to shoot it without detaching a retina.
Not a slam on the .458 - it can be loaded to match the old standby Nitro Express cartridges of similar caliber. And good bullets are much easier to find these days. But a lot of factory fodder is just not up to snuff!
I do have some Federal .458 factory ammo loaded with 400 gr Trophy bonded bulelts that gets 2150 - that should make a good Kudu or Eland load but I am just guessing.
Just ramblin'
Riposte
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11th, 2006 07:59 PM |
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PhilLozano
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Bwana Riposte1,
Over at my site there is a section dealing with big bores for DG.
I agree with most of what you say.
Kudu and Eland in my experience are not really too tough compared to some of the other animals. You can usually do well with a heavy for caliber bullet in the 7mm on up. You can use the 458 with 400 or 450 grain bullets, but really don't need to abuse yourself when hunting Kudu and Eland. I love my 35 Whelen with 250 grain bullets for them, knocks the snot out of them.
Personally, I think you have definately gone in the right direction with the Lott.
A 45 caliber 500 grain bullet, is not necessarly a 45 caliber 500 grain bullet in regards to stopping quality. Additionally, velocity with the incorrect 45 caliber 500 grain bullet is not either. As with all hunting and shooting at animals, you must pair the velocity to the bullet and the load to the animal you are hunting. In a Buffalo hunt, a soft, soft point out of a 458 Lott will cause death . . . . . . . maybe yours, and not the Buffalo's.
My 450 3/4 is a 480 grain bullet at a bit over 2150 fps and IMO is quite a bit better than the 458 Winnie.
I was unhappy with the performance of the Winnie on critters trying to occupy the same space I was standing on and had my Winnie's rechambered to 458 Lott and never looked back (although I currently use the 450 much of the time, I do still use my Lott for late season Elephant hunts).
I will be able to give you a report in a number of weeks, as Saturday, I am off for my first safari of the season. My clients are bringing a 375 H&H and 458 Win. Mag., my 2 least favorite cartridges for the likes of Buffalo.
We will see how the "New" factory fodder handles the task at hand. Well, I hope.
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Phil
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13th, 2006 04:35 PM |
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Riposte1
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Thanks for the feedback Phil. You would be in a postion to know and I always love to hear from folks who have "been there, done that".
Along that line, from what I hear from such folks, a soft point is decidely not Buff medicine - even in a big bore.
Two friends (whom I tried to disuade form doing so) took .375s after buff - they were loaded with solids (except for a couple of X bullets which found their way into the mix when ammo ran short).
The first shot his buff 14 times (all reasonbly well placed except for a couple of poorly angled shots as the buff ran around in the brush). The 14th was probably unnecessary and it also represented the guys last round on his person (4 in the gun and 10 on the belt). There was a camera person but unfortunately she only got the 1st and last shot on film and a few fuzzy sequences of black blurr. It must have been a great "adventure" - adventure being the result of being poorly prepared, as Mark Twain opined.
I foget which solid was used but I suspect it was either Barnes super solids or some other monolithic as this guy is always on the cutting edge of technology. I think 2 of the bullets (not by choice but because he used everything on him) were Barnes X bullets and he recovered one of them from the heart.
The second gent, who just got back last fall had only this to say : "I realize now why the .375 is considered the minimum caliber for buffalo ".
Thanks again for the feedback, it is much appreciated!
Riposte
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PhilLozano
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| Joined: | Mon May 23rd, 2005 |
| Location: | Arusha, Tanzania |
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OK Guys,
A quick report on the 458 Win. Mag.
The client put the first shot (a 500 grain Trophy Bonded) into the Buffs left shoulder from about 60 yards. The Buff started up the hill to follow the others.
The client put 3 A Square solids into his right shoulder. He shouted, I'm out . . . reloading !
The Buff was still under way, so I gave him a left from my double and he slowed down. The client was now reloadedand put a couple more solids into his shoulder and the story was finished.
2 of the Win. Mag. solids exited.
It still works with the ammo mentioned.
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Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13th, 2006 07:02 PM |
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Force_Recon_Marine
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 7th, 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
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As I said, guys will toy and build what ever they think is the most power (recoil) the body can stand (and keep standing). Yes they are heavy, but look, we have shoulder fired 50 BMG's, 600 NE's and the 3/4" water pipes, the 700 NE !
If one man can take the wheels off of it and get it to his shoulder, someone will try it !
There is a company building a shoulder fired single shot 20mm bolt action if anyone is interested.
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Swift Silent Deadly
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