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LilMag
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Posted: 18 November 2007 03:04 AM |
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Phil I started to test some Barnes 160 grain TSX bullets this past summber but with temps over a 100 degrees (108 in the backyard) I oppted to just put things on hold for that period.
The only thing I did find out, was that those Barns TSX bullets seemed accruate enough...never loaded anything real HOT OK. They also seemed to open up in the stock tank without a lot of problems, which has been one of my main complaints about those Barnes XLC & X bullets.
I have seen a few deer like those in your picture from a .257 Weatherby using Nosler BT bullets, the period being around the mid to late 90's. I bought some Nosler BT back in 2004 and they were beefed up in the jacket, work A-OK when shot into 50-lb clay blocks and later used them on a few coyotes using my 25-06 with 100 grain weight bullets.
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PhilLozano
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| Joined: | 23 May 2005 |
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Posted: 18 November 2007 05:23 PM |
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PhilLozano wrote:
Anyone that likes the TSX's (or any other bullet) is welcomed to use what they like/want. No problem by me. I was just trying to report what I saw
I am going to Mexico on a Mule Deer hunt in Jan., with a 7mm Rem Mag.
I will not be taking the TSX's for my bullets.
I will post some photos of the bullet hole(s) when I get back from the hunt (hopefully).
I will include, distance, load etc., etc..
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
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264shooter
HB Pro Staff
| Joined: | 11 June 2005 |
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Posted: 19 November 2007 08:46 AM |
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| Well, I'm back from my South Dakota trip.As usual the Barnes 120 gr X-Bullet in my old .264 performed beautifully.However, I am not happy with the performance of the 130 gr TSX in my new 264.One of the mule deer does I shot had an exit hole like the ones pictured earlier of the African game killed with the 7MM Mag and 160 gr TSX.Another one my Brother shot was not much better.I killed a heavy Mule deer buck and the TSX worked great.3 kills are not alot to go by but 60 % unsatisfactory results does not look promising.They seemed to overly expand like the old Sierra's used to in my 243. I'll have to say though the 130 TSX worked great on prairie dogs.Very devastating and great accuracy too. My son killed his doe with a remington factory 140 gr corelock with good results. Looks like I am going to have to stock up on the old X-Bullet and keep hunting with those.
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PhilLozano
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Posted: 19 November 2007 07:20 PM |
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264shooter wrote:
Well, I'm back from my South Dakota trip.As usual the Barnes 120 gr X-Bullet in my old .264 performed beautifully.However, I am not happy with the performance of the 130 gr TSX in my new 264.One of the mule deer does I shot had an exit hole like the ones pictured earlier of the African game killed with the 7MM Mag and 160 gr TSX.Another one my Brother shot was not much better.I killed a heavy Mule deer buck and the TSX worked great.3 kills are not alot to go by but 60 % unsatisfactory results does not look promising.They seemed to overly expand like the old Sierra's used to in my 243. I'll have to say though the 130 TSX worked great on prairie dogs.Very devastating and great accuracy too. My son killed his doe with a remington factory 140 gr corelock with good results. Looks like I am going to have to stock up on the old X-Bullet and keep hunting with those.
264shooter wrote:
Wow not even close to my experience with Barnes X-Bullets.Nor any of my friends that use them.hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm makes ya wonder.
Now your experience is close to what I posted. Your experience in South Dakota is exactly what I was trying to get across. Sometimes they work . . . . . . . . . . and sometimes they don't. And when they don't, the results can be a taxidermist's nightmare.
264shooter wrote:
Wasn't trying to question anyone's honosty or anything like that.Just doesn't go with my experience thats all.Biggest wonder to me is what happened with that load.Pretty extreme results.Looks as though the bullet had a complete failure to hold together.Reminds me of the ground squierrels I shoot with my .17 Ackley Magnum.Maybe the small coastal deer we shoot here are much tougher built.
I don't think it has anything to do with the load.
One of the nice things about being a P.H. is, I get to see hundreds of rifle/ammo/bullet combinations (not to mention animals shot).
Generally more than the average hunter I would guess. I see what seems to work and what seems not to work so well.
The photos I posted of the animals were taken within a 10 to 15 minutes after the kill. I was accused on another forum of "maybe cutting the hide with a knife" on the Lesser Kudu to make the TSX's look bad (as if the client would let me ruin his trophy, . . . . . . . . please . . . . . give me a break).
You saw with your own eyes the damage it did to your deer. One bullet works and one doesn't. That has been my experience with the entire Barnes line of "X type" bullets. The ones that work, work well. The ones that don't, don't.
Admittedly, I am a Swift and Woodleigh fan, but would not try to set up something like these photos to discredit Barnes (they are doing a good enough job at doing that).
My complaint about the X bullets, 1/2 a box will work well, and 1/2 a box won't. Which 1/2 do you grab when going on a once in a lifetime safari ?
Hope you grabbed the 1/2 that works.
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
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264shooter
HB Pro Staff
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Posted: 19 November 2007 09:35 PM |
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| I have shot deer with bullets from more than one box with the 120 gr X-Bullet and have had 100% perfect results on 15 deer killed with them.I really like them.But cutting those groves and softening the bullet with the Triple Shocks seems like a step backwards.Maybe a little more accurate but I have never seen a game animal that can tell the difference between a load that shoots 1/2 MOA or 1 1/2 MOA at reasonable ranges.Swift Bullets are great and so are the Woodleighs but here we have to shoot lead free bullets.I'll keep loading the Triple Shocks for varmints and stick with the old X-Bullet for big game.
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PhilLozano
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Posted: 27 January 2008 04:54 AM |
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Yes, Ca. is a place where if you are a hunter, you will have a tough time . . . all around.
I moved from California to Florida 2 or so years ago. Much more liberal in regards to guns and hunting here.
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
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PhilLozano
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Posted: 27 January 2008 04:55 AM |
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OK, as promised, here is my story -
As some (or most ) of you know, I traded an Outfitter in Mexico (Roger) a Buffalo hunt for a Sonora Mule deer hunt.
I took my 7mm Mag, loaded with 162 grain Hornady boattail Interlocks. I was thinking, if I could hit it well and make it bleed, I could find it. I had problems with my rifle and didn't get it sorted until the day before we were to leave. I was quite concerned, as anyone would be.
Well, Peg and I went to Hermosillo. There were 3 other hunters in camp, all good guys. Sighted in the rifles after we arrived at camp (an old ranch house).
It was quite cool in Mexico and I did not bring enough warm stuff (mostly pants that were not warm enough).
I told my Guide, Enrique that I wanted to shoot a BIG Mulie. He said "OK", . . . we shoot big Mule ! " (close enough, I guess).
Got up the following morning and were off after breakfast. We arrived in the hunting area just before dawn. I was surprised at how thick the country was.
We climbed a large hill overlooking the "flats" to glass for moving deer.
We spotted a couple of does and a reasonable buck. He was about 27 inches wide with 4 on aside, but not real tall.
Peg said she didn't feel well, so went back to the truck.
We still hunted a bit after glassing, but did not see anything in the thick cover. We hunted until about 11:30, then went back to the truck for lunch and a nap. At 3:30 we again climbed the hill to glass. Saw some does moving in and out of the cover and decide to go investigate. At about 300 yards, a doe came through the bush and spotted us and we froze. She watched us for about 15 minutes before going back to eating. We stalked in a bit and saw a buck 'herding' about 5 does at about 200 yards. I set up my shooting sticks and put the X hairs behind the front shoulder of the buck.
Enrique said "No!" "Not big enough Mule". I watched the buck as he was in and out of the bush chasing does. He was standing broadside 4 or 5 times during the time we watched him (as it turned out, I should have shot). He was about 29 or 30 inches wide, with 4 points on each side, not too tall (about 8 inches tall), but not thick. Anyway, we/I passed on him.
We hunted the same way each day, except Peg stayed in the camp (she got very sick, i.e. the reason she went back to the truck the first day).
We saw deer and bucks everyday. Made some stalks only to turn the bucks down. Another I should have shot was about 26 or 27 wide with thick, tall tines that flared out at the top of his rack. He was at about 250 - 275 yards out, didn't know we were there and was standing broadside.
On the 3rd. morning Peg as feeling better and went with us. We spotted a very big buck at about 3/4 of a mile and headed out to try and intercept him. We got up on the does running with him, but the wind was blowing every where and the deer ran off. Never saw the buck.
When we returned to camp, Peg was hit with another round of illness and went straight to bed (kind sucks, sick twice in 3 days).
Day 4 we went out and again stalked some bucks either not finding them or passing them up.
When we returned to camp, Peg was much worse. I said, OK, let's go home. She said "Not on your life are we leaving." I told her it pretty much sucked to be sick in a cold place away from home. She said she would stick it out, no problem (what a trooper).
Day 5, Peg was a bit worse and stayed in camp. Enrique and I went back to the same hill to glass at daybreak.
Enrique went to the other side of the hill to glass (well, thats what he said) and I was sitting on top looking for deer. Then saw a 4x4 walking about 200 yards out. I thought "OK, this is it . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I'll shoot this deer and get Peg home. So, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . the 7 Mag roared.
Enrique came running, said he was ah ah ah indisposed when the rifle barked.
I told him where the deer was and that it had gone into the brush about 20 yards ahead of where I shot. Enrique watched the bush and I climbed down the hill. When I got down to where I thought the deer should be, there he was, laying on his side dead. Enrique came down and we took some photos.
Not a big deer, but it's my deer.
The bullet entered forward of the shoulder and at the top of the shoulder
and exited just above the off side elbow. You can just see a bit of blood at the exit by the larger rock
When I came up on the deer, I thought the bullet had not exited. I did not see any blood or anything. It was not until I started taking photos that I noticed 2 drops of blood running out on the off side.
As it turns out, the Hornady did a good job ! Did not make a large exit wound and the deer almost dropped in his tracks (went about 20 - 25 yards and dropped). I would say, I would use these bullets again for deer, they preformed pretty well !
Another hunter shot a deer on the last day. An average (according to Roger and the other guides) 4 point. Here are 2 photos of the deer he shot (the ones I passed on were at least this size, oh well !).
1 of the other hunters wounded a BIG deer. By all accounts, it was 34 to 36 inches wide and about 18 to 20 inches tall! It was spotted at last light (very last light) and was running quartering away when he shot. We went back and looked for about 4 hours for tracks and/or blood. We found neither. BUT, we did see a BIG BUCK (he had to turn his head sideways to get his horns past the 2 trees), but all the rifles were back in the truck. What a bunch of dopes! It isn't dangerous game but we should have carried our rifles!
As it turned out, Peg was sicker than she thought, but is recovering nicely now. We couldn't get out the next day, so had to spend the night in Hermosillo, and then the next night in Phoenix. Then the long flight to Florida.
After arriving, I sent the frozen skin to Steve (of our forum) to be mounted.
Roger said I could come back and spend the month of December next year and look for a big 'un.
This hunt is a place where you go to hunt BIG Mulies. It is best if you go with the attitude of shooting a BIG ONE, or going home with nothing. That is what I will do next time.
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
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klallen
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| Joined: | 10 February 2005 |
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Posted: 29 January 2008 03:40 PM |
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Morning P L >> Nice story and pics. I love Mulie pics.
Ya know, since the string addresses bullet function, it just so happens that 162 gr. Interlock BTSP you used in your 7mm RemMag was the first bullet I choose to reload with back when I first bought my Winchester Laredo. Back then it was a 7mm STW rather then the current 7mm RUM.
It was my first experience with an Interlock bullet after I'd heard tons and tons of positive reports on the bullet design. The on game performance that I saw with that bullet and cartridge from that particular rifle left me scratching my head on many occasions. Penetration was the issue. In short, there was none. At least, not what I'd associate with a heavy for caliber bullet. I never experienced a through and through pass, even on a perfect broadside presentation when rib was the heaviest and hardest thing the bullet encountered on impact. It almost seemed as if the bullet had tried to come apart long before it reached the animal, then once there, the stress of impact finished the job. I used the combo for 2 1/2 seasons. I will conceed I never lost and animal to the performance but I was always left with the question why the bullets were coming apart. Talked to Hornady techs on many occasions. I was convinced that the twist of my factory barrel along with the higher velocity of the cartridge was initiating core / jacket separation before the bullet left the barrel. This still bucked conventional wisdom, as the round was supremely accurate on paper and if the bullet was compromised in any way, you'd not still expect to see extremely tight groups. I was lost. After hearing so many rave about these bullets, I'd seen nothing but strange. Either way, the techs never agreed with me as they said that the bullet had been designed around the velocities associated with the 7mm WbyMag (their claim). I told them I was moving the bullet some 100 - 150 fps faster in the STW. They still wouldn't accept my theory. When asked for their explaination of what I was seeing, they had none. Zero. Long story short, I changed bullets the next season.
I went to a 140 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip. A bullet claimed to be much more frangible then an Interlock but one that I'd watch my bro succeed with for a long time out of his 7RemMag. Even thought I was pushing them much faster then I did the 162 Interlocks, penetration results instantly improved. Complete penetration was seen for the first time, even with heavy bone impacts.
To this day, I can't explain for 100% certainty what was going on. But I know from that experience, I'll never have another Hornady at the ready when big game hunting. Ya just can't hunt with confidence when there's questions about bullet performance.
Glad the Hornady's worked for ya. Continued success. >> korey
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PhilLozano
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Posted: 29 January 2008 07:28 PM |
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klallen wrote:
162 gr. Interlock BTSP you used in your 7mm RemMag was the first bullet I choose to reload with back when I first bought my Winchester Laredo. Back then it was a 7mm STW rather then the current 7mm RUM.
Penetration was the issue. In short, there was none. At least, not what I'd associate with a heavy for caliber bullet.
Personally, I do not consider this a heavy for caliber bullet.
I feel the 175's are heavy for caliber in the 7mm's.
I feel the 160's are what was meant to be shot out of the 7mm Mags. But, to each, his own.
In the past, I have always shot 175's out of my 7 mag.
Did not have much time to develop a load for this hunt. Off for Tanzania last June, returned in December, went to California for 2 weeks for Christmas with my parents, then back here to get ready for the hunt. The local gun shop had the Hornady's in stock. I thought, if I could make it bleed well enough, I could track it down, so that is what got loaded.
I do believe that Hornady's are soft bullets. I have never seen one in any caliber that I would consider a "hard" or "tough" soft point.
klallen wrote:
Talked to Hornady techs on many occasions. I was convinced that the twist of my factory barrel along with the higher velocity of the cartridge was initiating core / jacket separation before the bullet left the barrel.
I don't know about the separation inside the barrel, but I do believe you are correct, in that the barrel twist and velocity will put a tremendous amount of additional force on the bullet.
A faster twist will give more resistance in the barrel as well as when rotating after striking the target/animal.
As I said, I don't think Hornady's are tough soft points, but they worked in this situation.
I would use them again, but may also have a look at some other bullets and how they preform here on some Pigs (a good test media).
I do like Swifts, but they do not shoot REALLY well in my 7 Mag. Might just go back to the Nosler partitions in 175 grain.
klallen wrote:
This still bucked conventional wisdom, as the round was supremely accurate on paper and if the bullet was compromised in any way, you'd not still expect to see extremely tight groups.
I never heard of this before. Personally, I feel accuracy and bullet preformance have little to do with one another.
True, if they are not build properly, they will not "fly" reasonably well.
However, target bullet are quite accurate, but a Match Grade Boattail Hollow Point would not do too well on Deer or Elk (IMO).
I feel as far as performance on game goes, it is bullet construction and design that "tells the tale". A soft bullet, . . . is a soft bullet, . . . . is a soft bullet, i.e. (construction/design).
klallen wrote:
the techs never agreed with me as they said that the bullet had been designed around the velocities associated with the 7mm WbyMag (their claim). I told them I was moving the bullet some 100 - 150 fps faster in the STW. They still wouldn't accept my theory. When asked for their explaination of what I was seeing, they had none. Zero.
Personally, I think you had/have the answer. They are in the biz to sell bullets. As I say, Hornady's are IMO, "soft", softs.
klallen wrote:
I went to a 140 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip. A bullet claimed to be much more frangible then an Interlock but one that I'd watch my bro succeed with for a long time out of his 7RemMag. Even thought I was pushing them much faster then I did the 162 Interlocks, penetration results instantly improved. Complete penetration was seen for the first time, even with heavy bone impacts.
Thought trial and error, you found a bullet that works well for you. When choosing bullets, game size, toughness and distance need to be considered (and in more cases than not, SC and to some degree BC).
klallen wrote:
Ya just can't hunt with confidence when there's questions about bullet performance.
Very, very true.
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
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klallen
Administrator
| Joined: | 10 February 2005 |
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Posted: 30 January 2008 01:00 AM |
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PhilLozano wrote: klallen wrote:
This still bucked conventional wisdom, as the round was supremely accurate on paper and if the bullet was compromised in any way, you'd not still expect to see extremely tight groups.
I never heard of this before. Personally, I feel accuracy and bullet preformance have little to do with one another.
True, if they are not build properly, they will not "fly" reasonably well.
However, target bullet are quite accurate, but a Match Grade Boattail Hollow Point would not do too well on Deer or Elk (IMO).
I feel as far as performance on game goes, it is bullet construction and design that "tells the tale". A soft bullet, . . . is a soft bullet, . . . . is a soft bullet, i.e. (construction/design).
Evening Phil >> My point with this comment, from a simple "on target" standpoint, is that conventional wisdom suggests a bullet whose internal integrity has been compromised, weakening the most fundemental of things that's working to hold it together (i. e. core / jacket separation), would tend to show erratic and unpredictible accuracy on paper, keyhole or not getting to the paper at all; coming apart in flight.
That's the counterdicting points. I was seeing accuracy associated with a perfectly stabilized, fully intact bullet yet seein on game performance suggesting the bullets interlock ring had been compromised.
Either way ya slice it, you're right. Through testing, I have found a bullet maker that I'm very happy with now and with the advent and introduction of the AccuBond line, am even more pleased. But it still bothers me and is a question that works on my to this day. Not knowing what was really happening and knowing I'll never know what was happening will always bother me. Maybe a faulty lot of bullets. I've come to except that as a possiblity as well, but Hornady shot that thought down, too. LOL. Oh well.
Incidently, I'm using the Swift 280 A-Frame in my .358 STA and agree they're not the most accurate of bullets. But mercy, that bullet sure smacked the heck out of the elk I got last August. Talk to ya later. >> klallen
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THE DUKE
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264shooter
HB Pro Staff
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Posted: 30 January 2008 01:21 AM |
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| I had the same bad experience with Hornady Interlocks in my 6MM Remington at approximately 3000 fps.They had the same failure at impact, as the Sierra and Hornady bullets did before Interlocks.They are just a conventional bullet, and no way will compare with a Premium Bullet.I had great results with the Nosler 100 gr Solid Base bullet untill they stopped production of that bullet.I'm happy to say they can still be obtained from Nosler.Now Its all Barnes in my hunting grounds thanks to Gov Arnald and questionable science.I have had great success with the Barnes X-Bullet.Not too sure about the new Tripleshocks as yet.Many years ago i used Hornady 154 gr Spitzers in my 7 MM Mag with great results.They were loaded to approximately 2800 FPS and held together quite well.Not sure how they would have done at much higher velocities.
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