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Timberghozt
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Posted: 27 November 2007 02:21 AM |
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I am going to build another big bore rifle when I get home from Iraq.I am think 458 Win Mag or 458 Lott..I want to build the rifle I will use in Africa so what do you guys think?I will carry a plains game rifle which is my 300 Win Mag but I want a big thumper for large stuff,especially Cape Buff.I am not interested in elephant and buff will be the largest I will ever use it on?I am leaning towards the 458 Win Mag..
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klallen
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Posted: 27 November 2007 03:21 AM |
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My brother's got the Lott in a Ruger #1. It is one sassy little number. Course, my #1 .416 RemMag isn't what you'd call comfortable with full tilt loads, either. I went with the .416 over larger diameter stuff after doing a little digging. Elephant is an unrealistic goal for me for financial reasons, so like you, cape buffalo would be the largest animal I'd ever be hunting in Africa, if and when. From what I could gather, it sounded like a well constructed .416 bullet had more then enough umph to get the job done on buff, with the standard kinda being a quality 400 gr. bullet at 2400 fps doing the work for ya. Was kinda leaning towards a Rigby but when this RemMag fell into my lap, I jumped at the opportunity. The load I've got worked up for the rifle now has a 370 gr. bonded North Fork sp clipping along just over 2630 fps. Should do some damage if I can ever find a renegade cape buff terrorizing the river bottoms up here in MT.
I must admit though, going larger has always interested me. Being able to play with my bro's .458 kinda got me looking beyond that class. I started a .470 Capstick topic because of that interest. If I ever do go larger, I imagine it'll be something in that caliber class. The Capstick would be nice. Necking the RUM case up to .475 would even be nicer. I think that'd be a brute of a round. More then I'll ever need, but what the hay.
Looking forward to hearing what you choose to go with. Talk to ya later. korey
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Timberghozt
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Posted: 27 November 2007 04:00 AM |
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Korey,like you I am anticipating a Africa hunt.And I want to be familiar with what I will use there.I thought about a 416 Rem Mag and have no ill complaints with it but I simply want to sling a little more grains of jacketed bullet and put it where it needs to be.
This is in the infantile stage so I will keep you informed but I am seriously considering the 458 Win Mag.I have spoken with some African hunters that have made the trek many imes and with Phil and I am thinking a 458 Win Mag would be the trick,yet a 458 Lott keeps telling me to build it.. 
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sdb777
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Posted: 27 November 2007 11:59 AM |
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I'd be thinking a lot about those British calibers.
Although, my head tells me the .375 H&H will do it all(on both ends), kill from the front and thump in the back. Not sure I'd do too much with anything in the .458WinMag(unless it's fed nothing but Premuim solids), the round has great numbers(stats) on paper, but has always left me scratching my head as to why it isn't great.
Scott () B
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Timberghozt
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Posted: 27 November 2007 07:55 PM |
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I wonder if a 98 Mauser action can handle the pressure of the 458 Lott cartridge?I know it can take a 458 Win Mag.
I want a beautiful custom wood stocked rifle that I do completely myself.
I though about a 375 H&H Scott,still not completely dimissing it.I have about 6 months to make my mind up but I want to weigh all the chamberings before I start buying my components.
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PhilLozano
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Posted: 4 December 2007 02:26 PM |
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TG,
I am not sure, but I think the 458 Lott is too long for a 458 Lott as well as the 416 Remington. Both are great cartridges for DG.
The 416 is a bit more versitle than the Lott. Don't get me wrong here, I have a Lott, and it has saved my buut more than a few times. The Lott is a very good "stopper".
A 375 is the minimum I would consider, and although it works, it is not my favorite Buffalo cartridge. It is the minimum and as such, you have NO room for error. I have chased more Buffalo shot with the 375 than the other cartridges combined, and most of my clients bring 416's and up.
Any of the 416's will serve you well in a long career of Buffalo hunting. All the 416's are very well suited Buffalo cartridges. As I said, the 416 is more versitle than the 458 Lott, however, the Lott will take care of business with Buffalo as well and any cartridge.
Personally, I would say build a 416 Remington or a 416 Taylor, as the taylor will fit in a 98 action.
The easiest conversion is get a 375 and rebarrel it to 416. Not much work involved if you do it that way.
I still have questions about the 458 Win. Mag. Thee are many new loadings, and some of my clients have brought them. I am not quite as impressed with the results as with the 416.
The 416 is a solid choice for Buff as is the Lott. Quality ammo is easy to find for the 416 Rem., a bit less so for the Lott. Remmie safari grade ammo is excellent quality and a bit cheaper than Lott ammo.
If there are not many Ele's in your future, I'd go with the 416 Remmie.
Either the 416 Remmie or the 458 Lott is a great choice for ALL Dangerous Game.
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Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
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Rapier
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Posted: 11 February 2008 09:29 PM |
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Timberghost & Phil,
The folks wanting a thunder stick are fairly small when the numbers get crunched, as you know. The 98 will take a 458 Lott, However.
I built a Lott last year. I decided on the Montana Rifle Company 1999 action. It is a modern combination of a 98 and 70 best parts. It has a 70 safety and trigger with a 98 one piece style triggerguard and barrel system (cone and extractor cut are in the action). The offer the barreled action, in the white for $997. Which is what I bought.
My gun shoots .75 inch groups at 100 yards with the 500gr FMJRN Federal Factory load equiv. This is the MRC site.
http://www.montanarifleman.com/
By the way, the 458 Win Mag can be fired in the lott as a 458 short, if you will. So if the 458 is you game, go with the Lott. You can load down, but never up.
Phil, take a look at the Pro Hunter action. I have had one on order for 6 years, since they were first shown at the Orlando Shot Show. I am waiting for the call, "you action is ready..." That is a real beast, square bridge, 4 inch magazine and at $500 is a steal.
Ed
Last edited on 11 February 2008 09:40 PM by Rapier
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PhilLozano
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Posted: 11 February 2008 09:55 PM |
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Re-read my post. Yes a 98 will handle a 458 Lott.
I already have one, built on an Mark X action. Work done by J.Lott, I would have bought whatever action I need to buy, but Jack told me that no matter what action I bought, it would need to be "massaged" buy someone in the know.
I like the way it turned out so well,
I just bought a 300 Winnie in a Mark X, compelete for $250 as the donor for my Wildcat project.
The Lott cartridge is generally pretty darn accurate. Mine shoots about the same as yours.
Quite a nice big bore.
Will do whatever you need it to do.
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Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
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Rapier
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Posted: 11 February 2008 10:57 PM |
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That is something I do not get and never have. I have two Mark X actions and they are just fine, nothing wrong with them, but they were cheap compared to other claw extractor actions of the same quality.
Best,
Ed
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LilMag
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Posted: 16 February 2008 01:42 AM |
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Timberghhozt....I own several big bores in various calibers! However, the .416 caliber is the most versatile as Phil stated in his post. He hunts those buff a bunch, so I suppose the .458-LOTT is enough gun for his liking OK.
I own a .458 Win mag and a .458-LOTT but wanted something with more diameter and bullet weight to use on those buff. I built a .470-Capstick (.475 diameter, model 70 Winchester action) and like it a bunch! It will shoot 500 or 600 grain bullets at 2360fps and 2150fps respectively.
I like to use the 450 grain bullets for the .458 Win mag and run 500 grainers in the .458-LOTT. I believe a hunter carrying a .375 H&H or a .338 Win mag as the small rifle and then going the route of the .458-LOTT, or in my case using the .470-Capstick, will cover all the bases on an African hunt.
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LilMag
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Posted: 16 February 2008 01:46 AM |
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| Rapier please tell me more about your model 70 Winchester, that you switch out barrels from the .338 Win mag to the 7mm Rem. mag while in the field. Do you have some special model 70 Winchester, or did you have a gunsmith do some sort of work on that rifle, so you could change out the barrels quickly?
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varmintcaller
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Posted: 16 February 2008 04:30 AM |
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Hey Phil
With all of your african experience, what do you think of the .460 WBY Mag as an all around big game stopper ? I'll probably never get to africa, but if i did, i always imagined the .460 as the one "big" rifle i would carry.
Im probably a victim of all of the Weatherby hype.
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LilMag
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Posted: 16 February 2008 05:16 AM |
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Varmint caller.....I once gave some thought to the Weatherby .460 magnum caliber as my own stopper rifle but after getting some very good advice from a couple of PH's in Africa, I decided against the Weatherby altogether.
One thing that brought about some concern was that the magazine box flew open on firing the Weatherby .460 mag. The other issue, was that it was NOT a control fed round magazline type action rifle. So I oppted for the model 70 Winchester, with all the bells and whistles already installed by Winchester at the factory. Just my 2 cents worth OK.
Another issue was the fact, one could NOT purchase that rifle without a factory muzzle brake on the end of the barrel. I certainly did NOT want to hunt with a long barrel rifle with a muzzle brake at the end........African PH's frown upon such a weapon.
Last edited on 16 February 2008 05:19 AM by LilMag
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varmintcaller
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Posted: 16 February 2008 09:23 PM |
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Hi Ball,
I can understand your concerns, I think the muzzlebrake is an abomination to say the least, and not bieng a contolled feed is a negative.
I have fired several rounds of .460 WBY mag and didnt have any mechanical problems such as the one you mentioned, could be just a glich in the rifle you had. However if ph's dont like them, that should be good enough for anyone. So much for the rifle.
How does the .460 cartridge stack up to the catridges mentioned?
Thanks fot the response.
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LilMag
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Posted: 16 February 2008 10:04 PM |
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Varmintcaller, I certainly would choose my .470-Capstick, over the factory Weatherby .460, first because of reasons I mentioned prior in my other post. The 3 position safety is another aspect I looked at verses the Weatherby and Winchester action.
Velocity wise, the .460 is indeed faster but it also can play hell with the bullets you might choose. I know for years, the African PH's suggested a load that was near the 2400fps range....as being near perfect for the "Stopper Rifle". My Capstick with 500 grain bullets does a very good and accurate job. I don't need that extra 200fps that the .460 Weatherby round put out from the barrel. Needless to say, the recoil is a lot more than my .470-Capstick.
The Weatherby .460 magnum with 500 grain bullet, doing 2650fps has a recoil of over 105 pounds of felt energy. My .470-Capstick is around the 80 pounds of felt energy. The difference is a bunch when comparing rifles of the same weight! My Capstick weighs in at 10.77 pounds with scope. The .460 Weatherby will weigh right at 12 pounds without scope. So which would you want to carry in 106 degree heat all day?
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Rapier
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Posted: 17 February 2008 01:52 PM |
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HiBall,
Sorry to be late in response, I leave early on Saturday to shoot sporting clays and usually return after dark. It is a 1.5 hour drive each way.
The M-70 switch barrel was built as a project gun several years ago. I did the machine and hand work in a friend's gunsmith shop. The project started as an experiment to see how cheaply a switch barrel could be built that would shoot sub MOA with each barrel in the set and repeat the accuracy. The requirement was for the rifle to be inexpensive, accurate, repeatable, not labor intensive and marketable. Not much of a feat considering it had never been done before. My friend and I combined about 75 years of shooting experiance into a single project. In exchange for me doing the work in the shop, my friend got the knowledge of the correct path to follow.
The prototype took about two weeks to build. Once the process was figured out, I would imagine a gun could be put together in a good shop in about a day. The trick is to get the parts together before you start then with the knowledge of the step by step process put her together. That is with used parts or take off items, such as a barrel. Starting from scratch would be a bit more time consuming due to the need to cut the cone recess and extractor slot (s) for a Classic or Pre 64 style action.
This particular set started life as a 338 Win 70 Classic that I found in a pawn shop. Someone had cut the barrel off with a hacksaw to just over 20 inches. I traded the rifle and some money for a custom XP-100 in 7x08 that was a fine gun. I bought a good 7mm barrel from a smith in Alaska for $46.
The basics involve a recoil lug that is drilled and tapped, with a drill shank pin that extends into the barrel threads, past the minor diameter. The pin is held in place with a threaded plug and a spring. A side pin is installed with an L slot to pull the retaining pin. The barrel has a single hole drilled in the bottom of the shank for the use of a spanner wrench with a stud of the same size. The barrels can be changed in a motel room, without a vise. The threads are hand relieved to within a half turn which is time consuming to get right. There are two witness marks per barrel, left and right of center. The sights are two scopes mounted on the one action using quick release rings. The scope mounting system is by Warne.
The 338 barrel shoots .56 inch groups and the 7mm shoots .57 inch groups at 100 yards. The solution to the accuracy problem was what has escaped switch barrel builders for decades.
Unfortunately, in the middle of the second rifle, the smith was diagnose with dimensia and his shop was closed. No more rifles have been compleated in the line. However, what I have told you here should be sufficent for a smith to understand the process and build another rifle.
The article on the rifle will be published on the HuntingNut site.
The Savage should make building a switch barrel gun a snap. Were I to do another project it would be to set up a Savage in a switch barrel using a standard bolt face.
Ed
____________________
"who can afford so to cover his country with troops for its defense as that 10,000 men descending from the clouds might not in many places do an infinite deal of mischief before a force could be brought together to repel them?" Franklin
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LilMag
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Posted: 17 February 2008 06:21 PM |
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Ed, thanks for the comeback and explanation in full sir! I thought perhaps I had missed something that Winchester themselves did perhaps. I would have liked to purchase such a rifle, had they did do such but so much is life hey.
Best Regards,
Hi Ball
PS, I will certainly go to that site and take down all info!
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varmintcaller
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Posted: 17 February 2008 09:18 PM |
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Hi Ball
Thanks for the explanations, If i ever get to hunt africa for one of the big 5 it wont be with the .460. Im trying to manage a plains game hunt for the future, it will be a while before that happens (hunt fees and taxidermy fees are hard to come by when you are retired).
Thanks again for the info.
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PhilLozano
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Posted: 18 February 2008 01:51 AM |
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To chime in late, the 460 is a great stopper . . . . . . . . . . . IF YOU HAVE BULLETS UP TO THE TASK !
I know a few P.H.'s that use the 460, on custom built rifles (controlled feed).
One of the problems I see but rarely mentioned, is recovery time from one shot to the next.
More than a few times, I have had to work the bolt of my Lott and get back on target pretty fast.
The recoil of heavy recoiling cartridges/rifles would prolong getting back on target quickly.
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
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LilMag
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Posted: 18 February 2008 05:56 PM |
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Phil you once again have hit the nail smack dab on the head!!!
Yep, most don't know squat, unless they have been in the other fella's shoes starring down the barrel of something that wants to drive them to hell with their horns or simply put them on the menu for the next meal.
I learned years ago about that follow up shot you mentioned, when I got my very firest .375H&H and weighed in as a welterweight (146-lbs) on the scales. I got that rifle Mag-Na-Ported and it helped me a bunch, getting back on targets for the second quick follow up shot.
I plan on doing the same thing with this .470-Capstick as well because I will be shooting 500 grain soft points & 600 grain (copper) bullets. Now keeping that muzzle down is my main concern at the moment, so the second shot will be quick on target. I am also sending the rifle to Browning (Winchester repair) to check out the 3 position safety and give it an overal inspection etc. Cheerr's......looking at 2010 for the big hunt trip.
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