| Posted: Thu May 26th, 2005 03:25 PM |
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klallen
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Any of you fellas living in or hunting Africa every see this cartridge at work on dangerous game?
It's one of those cartridges that grabbed my attention some time ago and I can't seem to shake the desire to own a rifle so chambered. Looks like a neat companion for my .416 RemMag.?.?.?.? Local shop has a Winchester 70 chambered in the Capstick but I could probably have a custom rifle built of better quality for cheaper then the $2K they're asking. >> klallen
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| Posted: Thu May 26th, 2005 10:37 PM |
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PhilLozano
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Mr. klallen,
I have only seen it used with premium bullets, and work it did. Very nice cartridge.
I do not think it is any better on dangerous game that a 416, until you start talking about Elephants.
If you are planning a hunt for Elephant, it would not be a bad choice. For Buffalo, Lion and Elephant, the 416's will work just fine.
I would not fault you should you decide to build one. As I said, if you are going after Ele's, it is a good choice. If you are going to hunt an Ele only once, unless you just want to have a 470 Capstick, your 416 would do you well.
I suggest to clients that ask me what to bring a 338 Win. Mag. and a 416 Rem., Rigby, Weatherby, in that order.
Hope I have given you some insight.
Your 416 is enough for any thing that walks. However, who am I to say you should not have another rifle. New toys are neat !
Best,
PhilLast edited on Thu May 26th, 2005 10:38 PM by PhilLozano
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| Posted: Fri May 27th, 2005 02:36 AM |
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Mickey Rat
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Mr. klallen,
1st let me say that I am a hunter at heart, and love hunting (that really set's a bad mood, doesn't it?). My question is about elephant.
I feel that certain animals really should not be hunted because of their intelegence levels: great apes, dolphin, whale and elephant to be specific. From what I have read, elephants seem to have very human traits. I personally could never just shoot one for sport any more than I could shoot a person. If I were attacked I of course would shoot (I have had a CCW permit since 1979, and carried daily).
Is this because I don't know any better? Having observed and experianced more than I have, what is your position?
Again, these questions are submitted with the utmost respect, and in the intrest of learning from someone that has personal experiance. If you don't wish to respond, I fully understand.
Mickey Rat
Last edited on Fri May 27th, 2005 02:37 AM by Mickey Rat
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| Posted: Fri May 27th, 2005 03:48 AM |
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klallen
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Thanks PHILLOZANO. Appreciate the comments. A Capstick would certainly be a "want" kind of thing. Elephant isn't in my future so the Capstick would just be another opportunity for me to learn and reload for a dangerous game round.
Interesting with the .338 and .416 recommendation, for an African battery. Makes lots of sense. Unfortunately, I'm not so much a .338 fan as I should be so I'd have to substitute a .358 STA for that round.
Looking forward to reading more about your experiences. >> klallen
Last edited on Fri May 27th, 2005 03:48 AM by klallen
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| Posted: Fri May 27th, 2005 03:56 AM |
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klallen
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Evening MICKEYRAT >> First off, I want to clear up the fact that I have never hunted elephant, nor have I ever posted anything that might suggest that I have, at any time, hunted elephant. That being clear, there are two primary reasons why I have not hunted these animals. #1 The cost. #2 The location. If the sheer cost of an elephant hunt (and all that that hunt entails) was not so completely overwhelming, in relation to my current financial status, I might very well have already had several elephant hunts under my belt by now.
How you view an elephant (or any animal), and determine it's huntability, is completely up to you, and I respect your thinking. If you're not comfortable hunting something ... don't. I'll support that decision 100% as being right for you. Me personally, I see various levels of intelligence in all the big game animals that I hunt. More so, I see beauty. That's always been one of those wierd paradox's (not sure if that's the right word, but you'll get my point) of hunting. We as hunters are probably the most animal consciencious. We, as a group, see beauty in nature where a non-hunter more then likely would not. We can see a road-killed animal laying along the side of the road and have a glint of sorry for it's death while joe-blow'd never even notice the animal was there. We can see injured animals (domestic or wild) and always consider if or how we can help then take action, when the every-day joe would more then likely turn away. In short, we as a group care about wildlife and it's preservation very much yet we still hunt and kill that which we think is so beautiful. I guess there is a certain level of disassociation that has to take place before I take every shot. It is a disassociation that comes kinds easy because hunting is extremely important to me. I make other things important. Quick, humain kills on fair chase hunts. Pictures, stories and mounts to record the memory of the hunt forever. Enjoying the meat, whenever possible. I imagine, if I were financially capable, I'd take this same thinking (and the .416 RemMag ... thanks PHILLOZANO  ) into an elephant hunt and enjoy every minute of it. But that's just me. Noone else needs to adhear to my way of thinking.
I'm interested to hear some of the responses of the fellas that have hunted elephant. Later. >> klallen
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| Posted: Fri May 27th, 2005 04:15 AM |
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Mickey Rat
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Klallen,
My bad. I thought that you had spent some time as a PH. I wasn't trying to come down on any one, I just wanted some one that knew elephants to give me the run down. I really wanted a knowledgeable opinion.
If some one here does have some personal experiance, let me know. PM or post. I'm truely interested. Facinated actually.
Situational ethics: a sniper in a war is just doing his job, and he should be respected for his knowledge and courage.
The DC sniper was a cold blodded murder.
Same actions, different settings.
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| Posted: Fri May 27th, 2005 04:55 AM |
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PhilLozano
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Mr. klallen,
Nicely said.
I too have thoughts about the animals I hunt. After each Elephant hunt, I say, 'this will be my last'.
However, it seems something keeps calling me back. I love to watch Elephants in the bush. They are quite smart and quite remarkable. Additionally, they are very dangerous.
There are many reasons I hunt and take clients hunting. Personal reasons. I will respect and defend my sport/job to the best of my ability.
I feel the same, anyone that wants to hunt, hunts. Anyone that does not want to, does something else.
Personally, I do not think you can make a judgement of hunting one animal over the other by intellegence. If you hunt one animal, you should have no problem hunting all legal animals, to be consistant in your thoughts. There may be a desire to hunt one more than another. Example; I do not care if I ever shoot a Whitetail, but a Mule Deer, different story. Now I have heard that Whitetail are very smart. I don't care. The anaimal is not an attractive animal to me. So I don't care to hunt one. Do I mind if other people hunt them ? Not at all.
I am not saying this as well as Mr. klallen, did, so I think I will let his comments stand by saying I agree with what he said.
RE: The Capstick; It would be a nice project, And you will have one of the biggest cartridges at the range, for sure.
Also, as you will know when you pull the trigger, it is not a Coyote rifle.
I can tell you (but if you are shooting a 416 now, you will know), the 470 Capstick is not much fun from the bench.
It will get your attention in a hurry.
But for a person that likes rifles of all kinds, why not. A nice and fun project.
If you do, do it, please post some pictures of it when it is finished. Along with progress updates. Thanks.
Best,
Phil
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| Posted: Sat Jun 4th, 2005 03:25 AM |
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LilMag
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Greetings Folks~!
Well, since I am the new kid on the block, I just wanted to shout a "Howdy Do" to all you folks.
Now getting back to your post, I have read about the results of the .470 - Capstick a few years ago. I like the idea of using the .375H&H case but wondered about how things would be, when it came to seating bullets of .475 caliber. It's not as easy as making up 30-06 rounds for sure.
Nonetheless, I jumped in as usual with both feet and turned a new model 70 .375H&H into a .470 - Capstick, hoping it would be as good a rifle caliber as Peter's books where to read.
I used the original walnut stock but after about 60 rounds it cracked, even though it had been lined and reinforced with steel rod and action glass beded. The old stock has given way to a new wood laminated stock of wild cherry, ash and maple. The Krieger barrel is 26 inches long, with a 1 in 14 twist. It is soon to be cut back to 24 inches, now that loads have been developed using IMR-4320 powder and 500 grain Swift A Frame bullets in soft and Woodleigh solids.
The first 50 rounds where light in velocity using Hornady pistol bullets at 1000 and 1300fps. The Max velocity I obtained with premium rifle bullets was 2440fps and that spells OUCH in more ways than one if sitting at a bench while shooting. The rifle weighs in at just over 11 pounds. The biggest problem I have found with this particular caliber is finding good suitable bullets. There just isn't a lot of bullet manufacturer's making .475 caliber bullets these days.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 4th, 2005 04:31 PM |
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PhilLozano
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There may not a lot of choices for bullets, however, the ones you mention are very good and you really do not need any other choices. They are tough, strong bullets and will for sure get the job done.
Best,
Phil
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LilMag
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PH-Phil, I was hoping at the begining of this project, to be able to use those blue Barnes bullets called XLC but they were just much to long in their oringinal 500 grain weight after inserteding them into the blown out .375H&H case. I tried contacting several so called gunsmiths (to enlarge the magazine) however, I was told the process was very expensive and not worth the trouble. So, I just let well enough alone and decided on the Swift and Woodleigh bullets instead.
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PhilLozano
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No flies on those bullets.
I use them in my 450 3 1/4 (Woodleighs)and have not had a problem. They have worked and worked well.
I use the Swifts in my 458 Lott.
Both rifles and bullets are quite adequate for their intended targets.
Best,
Phil
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27th, 2006 06:03 PM |
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HollandNut
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I know one person who has a Cappy , and loves it , but we both pretty much agree that the Cappy isn't capable of anything the Lott can't do ..
Not knocking the Cappy , it is a fine round in itself , just a much better selection of 45 bullets is the only advantage of the Lott , and maybe a slight penetration advantage to the Cappy ..
Jack
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27th, 2006 11:02 PM |
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Leonard
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Here's my view on judgements, be they based on reason or emotion.
Don't hunt elephants because you think they are exempt for being too intelligent? What about coyotes?
Slippery slope. Just as soon as we start slicing and dicing certain species based on anthropomorphic considerations, we drive a wedge between duck hunters and deer hunters, archers and cap and ball hunters, big game and squirrel hunters.
In California, the electorate has decided that mountain lions are more important than humans, and the moratorium continues beyond any logic.
Are elephants destroying their range? Is sport elephant hunting the future for protecting the entire species? Is the no hunting policies in Kenya hurting the elephant populations?
Okay, we have a noble animal like the Big Horn Sheep in the Sierras. Protected species. But, in Nevada and Mexico, a desert bighorn hunt goes to the highest bidder, proceeds earmarked for management. Lions have raised hell with California Big Horn populations. What's the solution? Egg head solution, of course! Game Wardens killing lions so as not to offend the bunny huggers. If it needs doing, somebody should not be able to ENJOY it. Therfore, we have MORE permit killing now than we ever had under sport hunting. They are just too cute and cuddly as cubs. Works about the same as being very intelligent, except with coyotes, for some reason?
Can we harvest a certain percentage of whales? Have humans done so with other species? Norwegians and Japanese seem to think it is possible? Apparently, they don't have time to indulge the emotional, irrational message?
In short, I don't like to express an opinion concerning another man's sport. Culling elephants and sport hunting large bulls is extremely important to the local economies. And, it seems to be manageable and it seems to be working. Yeah, elephants are smart, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?It's not much different than deciding NOT to shoot Bison because they are too STUPID. If that is what blows your skirt up, (and it's legal), go ahead with my blessing.
Good hunting. LB
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| Posted: Sat Jan 28th, 2006 12:58 AM |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19th, 2007 11:39 PM |
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chuckscap
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How does the 470 Capstick feed? Does it's "ghost shoulder" hinder/help round feeding?
Thanks
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20th, 2007 05:09 AM |
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PhilLozano
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I thought the 470 Capstick had no shoulder at all !
(Had a look at the ballistics for the Capstick when looking it up on the net.
Was suprised to see the velocity at only 2150 fps. I thought it was a bit more).
Back to the question. I see not shoulder on the 470 Capstick. Don't have a reloading manual to check case dimentions, but I didn't think it had, nor do I see a shoulder there.
Maybe I need to go to the eye Dr. when I get back.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20th, 2007 05:09 AM |
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PhilLozano
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I thought the 470 Capstick had no shoulder at all !
(Had a look at the ballistics for the Capstick when looking it up on the net.
Was suprised to see the velocity at only 2150 fps. I thought it was a bit more).
Back to the question. I see not shoulder on the 470 Capstick. Don't have a reloading manual to check case dimentions, but I didn't think it had, nor do I see a shoulder there.
Maybe I need to go to the eye Dr. when I get back.
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Phil
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20th, 2007 01:29 PM |
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chuckscap
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I can't see one either Phil, even in the article that says there's one. Here's the link, maybe your eyes are better than mine.
http://www.shooter.co.za/470capstickdmc.html
I also emailed A-Square to see what they had to say ....
:)
Chuck
Last edited on Tue Nov 20th, 2007 01:55 PM by chuckscap
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20th, 2007 07:22 PM |
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PhilLozano
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I don't see 1 in the drawing dimentions. Maybe the ghost shoulder is really a ghost !
I do not remember seeing one on the cartridge. Maybe he was thinking of one of the Ackleys, or thought no one would notice as he didn't have a photo of the real cartridges mentioned.
Who knows ?
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21st, 2007 12:22 AM |
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chuckscap
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Hi Phil, it was right there in front of me. The 470 Capstick tapers from .512 just in front of the belt to .499 then continues at .499 for for .471 inches. It's that straight run of .499 diameter for .471 inches that is the "ghost shoulder". So the case is different from the 458 Lott in that sense. Another link, hope I'm not boring you to death ... Seriously thinking about this being the next step up in caliber for me
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri136partial.pdf
Regards,
Chuck
Last edited on Wed Nov 21st, 2007 12:27 AM by chuckscap
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