| Posted: Fri Dec 26th, 2008 04:00 PM |
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61st Post |
chuckscap
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CZ uses a 10 or 11 oz C&H I believe. I'll ask Harlan when I send the gun out to him in a week.
Regards,
Chuck
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| Posted: Fri Dec 26th, 2008 09:52 PM |
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62nd Post |
chuckscap
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Phil, I do believe they work, it's a matter of some debate. I know a lot of competitive shotgunners use them.
Chuck
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Michael Douglas "Ghost In The Darkness"
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 01:34 AM |
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63rd Post |
rcrwin70
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Aloha from Hawaii,
This may be longer than you would like to read but one of the major attributes of the .470 Capstick over most of the cartridges it is compared with, is magazine capacity. Think about it. Look at the number of .375 H&H rounds a Ruger can hold versus .416 Rigby for instance. The .505 and .500 Jeffery are even worse.
I have been studying the magnum mausers as to their strong points as well as their limitations for adaptation to the African big bores. I have a beautiful .470 Capstick built on a BRNO 602 ZKK action with most of the popular features: masterpiece ramp front sight with lockable hood, barrel band front swivel, an unusual Win. Pre-64 M70 African rear sight, Winchester M70 3-position safety (now even used by Mauser), and one thing most PHs want the most... a long, large bolt handle that is quick to grasp.
The BRNO 602 ZKK or the CZ 550 (I have a .458 Lott in a new one with upgraded wood) actions have deep belly magazines which make them ideal for multiple rounds of large diameter cartridges, i.e. .416 Rigby, .505 Gibbs, etc. However, the downside is the bolt face diameter. Ask Dan Pedersen (Classic Barrel Works) and he will tell you that even though the factory has made some .505 Gibbs, the bolt face is not sufficiently large enough. He will give you the way the factory gets around this (probably safely) but still the better maximum choice for the bolt face diameter is the .500 Jeffery for this action, if you want the biggest you can make it. With its deep belly magazine, the .416 Rigby and the .500 Jeffery are ideal cartridge choices for the CZ, as well as many in between (like my .458 Lott). On my new one, I am going to change the ugly bolt handle, the set trigger, and the safety to a Win. M70 3-position safety.
I also have, what I think is a premier magnum mauser, which is the Heym Express Rifle and it does have a sufficiently large bolt face for the biggest stuff. Mine is in .505 Gibbs. Not only does it have a deep belly magazine for multiple cartridge capacity, but also it is one of the few big magnums that has a special spring-loaded partition in the front of the magazine compressing against the rounds in the magazine to prevent bullets of the cartridges from being unseated during recoil. It is a fine rifle with a Winchester M70 3-position safety. I added an H & H flip-up moon sight on mine.
My third big gun is a Ruger Magnum (Mark II) with the controlled feeding. The late Frank de Haas, who was a friend of mine, wrote in his great book, Bolt Action Rifles, "This is the first Bond Street quality, African safari, big game hunting rifle produced by a major American firearms manufacturer." Now here is a fine rifle to convert to .505 Gibbs as the bolt face is larger than that of the CZ 505. The action is plenty big for it. The downside is the shape of the stock (which looks like a 2x4 when standing in your gun cabinet), the narrow sideview of the stock (which means that it is not a deep belly magazine which means it has minimal capacity for the big stuff), and the little bolt handle. I have owned two in .416 Rigby and after selling the first, bought the second with the idea of straightening these things out.
I had Stocker John rework the contour to open the grip, add a genuine ebony tip (versus the synthetic factory one), and recontour all of the ugly square corners and trim the stock down to look like a fine Reimer Johannsen stock. We installed a thicker decelerator pad to gain a 14" LOP as well as for recoil comfort. I had Classic Checkering checker the H&H reverse curve pattern on the pistol grip with a full wrap-around H&H pattern on the forearm. Then, I had Jim Dubell recontour and lengthen the bolt handle to match one I found on a Brevex magnum safari rifle. The only downside now is the narrow magazine as I can only house two .416 Rigby rounds in reserve.
If I were to start over, I would have the big BRNO 602 ZKK in .416 Rigby with its correct bolt size and deep belly magazine for a larger capacity, and I would have purchased a Ruger .375 H&H RSM and had Jim Dubell or Dan Pedersen re-bore it to .470 Capstick, which with its narrow magazine can still hold 4 rounds of .470 Captick -- plenty.
In this discussion of .470 Capstick, I just thought the information above would be important to some folks considering re-boring rifles and help them avoid the expensive wrong turns that I made and learned after the fact.
With aloha from Hawaii,
Roger Rule, Author of The Rifleman's Rifle
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 01:40 AM |
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64th Post |
Timberghozt
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welcome to the HB Roger..I`ve read your book
TG
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 03:23 AM |
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65th Post |
PhilLozano
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Thanks for the post. However, I think it is a bit too late for Chuckscap to change or stop the rebuild. Don't know for sure however.
rcrwin70 wrote: and one thing most PHs want the most... a long, large bolt handle that is quick to grasp.
I would say this is questionable. Personally, I have a B/U rifle that has no bolt.
Additionally, I think magazine capacity is somewhat an over rated issue. When "it" hits the fan, you are not probably not going to get to the 3rd round, much less the 4th, . . . . . . . . just not enough time.
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Phil
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Professional Hunter / Tanzania
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 03:43 AM |
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66th Post |
chuckscap
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Thanks Roger, I was definitely going with the Capstick but unfortunately my barrel couldn't be rebored (I sent it to Jim Dubell, one screw was tapped too deeply). My CZ is currently being rebarrelled to 505 Gibbs by Triple River Gunsmithing. I know the bolt face is a little small in diameter but since CZ sells these as factory items, the price was right, the gunsmith has a very good reputation and I know they use McGowen barrels, I went for it. It should be here within a month. It should scratch my recoil itch (as one poster said "way down deep").
Thanks much for the advice,
Chuck
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"There's a saying in prizefighting ... Everyone's got a plan until they get hit."
Michael Douglas "Ghost In The Darkness"
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 08:39 AM |
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67th Post |
rcrwin70
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Aloha Chuck,
My latest information is that CZ is no longer offering the CZ 550 in .505 Gibbs, but they have added it in .500 Jeffery as a standard offering. Of course as you probably are well aware, the .500 Jeffery is a more powerful cartridge anyway. The big magazine box of the CZ works well for the Jeffery and its rebated rim works in sync with the smaller bolt face of the CZ (smaller than the Ruger, Heym, etc.). It was Dan Pedersen that really squealed to me about the CZ action being used for .505 Gibbs, but if your guy is comfortable with it, then whatever works. As I mentioned, I, too, like the Gibbs and have one myself. If I were to buy another big CZ, however, I would get the Jeffery.
I am exploring the possibility of increasing the Ruger's magazine size for .505 Gibbs, I will let you know if it turns out practical, but this will most certainly require an entirely new stock.
If I only had one elephant-sized cannon, it would be my .470 Capstick! With one in the chamber and five in the magazine, it's an elephant six-shooter -- definitely more than needed which is why I like the idea better of the Ruger in .470 Capstick.
Can I add photos on this blog?
With aloha,
____________________
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Author of The Rifleman's Rifle
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 08:49 AM |
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68th Post |
rcrwin70
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Aloha Phil,
I am not advocating a big magazine capacity, I was trying to point out that if one is going to modify a CZ or a Ruger to .470 Capstick, then the Ruger already has the correct magazine capacity without having a deep belly magazine. While the CZ, which already has a deeper magazine, is better suited to the "fatter" cartridges.
I was/am trying to say, match your action by bolt face and magazine capacity to the type of cartridge you prefer -- taking both into consideration, not just bolt face as did I (I was awkward in making my case clear). I had two rifles altered, and if I had to do it over, I would have switched them by caliber because of matching up this bolt face and magazine capacity issue.
What's a B/U? If it doesn't have a bolt, it's not in the category we were discussing is it? I thought I opened with and was discussing "magnum mausers."
With aloha,
Roger
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 12:55 PM |
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69th Post |
chuckscap
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Hi Roger, you can post images to this site. Just upload them to photobucket (photobucket.com), then as you mouse over your uploaded image highlight the "img" pane below it and do a copy. You can then paste it into your post.
I thought about the 500 Jeffery, better selection of bullets, smaller rim and more power in factory loadings. My big concern there was feeding. I heard it's difficult to make them feed. I'll call Harlan at Triple River Gunsmithing and see how far he is along and what he thinks. He was recommended highly to me by folks I know as well as by Jason of the CZ Custom Shop. If he isn't too far along, recommends the 500 Jeffery and will ensure it feeds correctly, I will go that route.
Regards,
Chuck
____________________
"There's a saying in prizefighting ... Everyone's got a plan until they get hit."
Michael Douglas "Ghost In The Darkness"
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 06:27 PM |
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70th Post |
rcrwin70
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Aloha Chuck,
You are very open-minded and are taking the correct analytical approach by getting several opinions. If it is too late to change, I'm sure your gunsmith will give you a satisfactory and journeyman job. I know about the feeding reputation of the Jeffery, but the warstories have mostly come from trying to adapt standard actions (i.e. my favorite Winchester pre-64 Model 70, Husqvarna, and FN actions) rather than using magnum mauser actions such as we have talked about. Even the enfield or Remington 30S which have been used successfully for the 505 Gibbs, were on the narrow side for a staggered magazine for the Jeffery.
The big double square bridge actions we have been discussing will handle the Jeffery feeding fine. I don't believe any of the CZ folks in Kansas City have had any complaints about this issue.
Aloha,
Roger
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 03:09 AM |
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71st Post |
PhilLozano
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rcrwin70 wrote: What's a B/U? If it doesn't have a bolt, it's not in the category we were discussing is it? I thought I opened with and was discussing "magnum mausers."
With aloha,
Roger
ok.
B/U = back up
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Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 04:29 AM |
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72nd Post |
rcrwin70
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Aloha Phil,
B/U = back up, got it. Thank you for explaining what should have been apparent to me.
I actually have two B/Us without bolts as well, a Chapuis .470 double and a Browning Belgium made Euro Classic 9.3x74R over/under, but if my B/U were a magnum mauser as I was addressing, I would want, like the majority of the licensees going through the PH licensing courses, my rifle to have a large, easy-to-grasp bolt handle. The few South African gunmakers, Juri Majoor, Sabi, M.J.Buncock,...and another I can't call to mind... build their big PH rifles with long, large bolt handles. As soon as I figure out how to implement photos into this forum, I will show all of the rifles I have been discussing.
Thanks again, Phil.
Chuck, good luck with your Triple River Gunsmithing project, 505 Gibbs or 500 Jeffery, I am sure you will be happy with the outcome.
Aloha,
Roger
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 05:52 AM |
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73rd Post |
PhilLozano
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Jambo!
Habari mchana Bwana Roger ?
Personally, I think your 470 is a fine B/U rifle. The 9.3x74 is a bit weak as a B/U, however. A nice rifle, but not enough poop for my liking.
As I stated previously, I started out using a 458 Win. Mag.. It worked, . . . . but it was not all that I thought it should be. So after a few seasons, I had it rechambered to a 458 Lott, by Jack of the same name. I liked the additional power that the Lott offered, and found it to be a reliable cartridge.
UNTIL, the bolt handle got caught in the grass and I got run over. After that episode, I got a English 470 double. Liked it as well.
Now I have a WR 450 3 1/4 that I really like. It has saved my butt from too many Buff to count and more Ele's than I care to think about (the Lott did so as well, except, it almost got me the permanent slumber).
I almost 'bought it' once because of a bolt gun. That won't happen again.
Kwahere, na lala salama.
Last edited on Sat Jan 31st, 2009 12:45 AM by PhilLozano
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Phil
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30th, 2009 11:09 PM |
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74th Post |
chuckscap
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Hi Phil and Roger. I spoke to Jason at the CZ Custom Gun Shop and Harlan at Triple River Gunsmithing. Neither Jason or Harlan felt that using a .700" diameter bolt on the Gibbs was an issue either from a pressure or feeding perspective, but they both indicated that the Jeffery would be their choice. Since Harlan had both 505 and .510 1 in 10" twist McGowen barrels coming in and they hadn't started on my rifle, I switched to the 500 Jeffery at no cost. It was the direction I would've gone initially, except I was concerned with the rebated rim feeding issue. In Harlan's words, they're both (.505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffery) a pain to get feeding properly, but we've done a bunch of them and they're right when we send them out.
Anyway thanks for the advice, I'm probably minimum a month away from my rifle getting here, but I'm sure it will be worth it.
Regards,
Chuck
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Michael Douglas "Ghost In The Darkness"
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rcrwin70
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Aloha Chuck,
Your finding that neither Jason nor Harlan saw any problem with the .505 Gibbs for the CZ made me wonder about my sources.
But first, I figured that Jason, being a representative of CZ, would have to stand behind them. So, I called Harlan. As it turns out, he does all the .505 Gibbs and .500 Jeffery work for CZ (or did before the .500 Jeffery became a standard offering). Harlan told me the same thing he told you that the CZ is fine for the .505 Gibbs. But, while Harlan does fine work, he would not be one to have a good third party perspective since he's the one that made the ones that are out there. He would have to stand behind them too.
Then, I went back to my original sources, Dan Pedersen of Classic Barrel Works and Jim Dubell of Delta Gun Shop. Dan told me that when you open the bolt face of a CZ 550 to allow for the .505 Gibbs, the rim that remains is so narrow, and the extractor hook so minimal at grasping the rim of the .505 Gibbs cartridge head, that while they may be perfectly safe at the range, he would hate to rely on one facing a charging Cape Buffalo.
I asked him if the bolt face on the Ruger Magnum was larger as I had heard, which Harlan didn't believe was the case either. Dan said that the Ruger had enough extra meat on the bolt lug (he called it an ear), and the extractor hook grasped better, that he felt comfortable that the Ruger action was better suited to a .505 Gibbs conversion than was the CZ. This discussion was a mirror image of my discussion on the same subject with Jim Dubell.
As I said earlier, the only problem with the Ruger for .505 Gibbs is the lack of a deep belly magazine, needed for such a large diameter cartridge. Dan Pedersen told me that Ted Blackburn of cncspecialty.com is a source for a deep belly magazine without re-doing the stock.
So, Chuck, I still think you made the best choice in having Harlan change your rifle to .500 Jeffery with its rebated rim, instead of the .505 Gibbs. Apparently CZ agrees with that conclusion since they offer the CZ 550 in .500 Jeffery and not in .505 Gibbs (except maybe by special order through Harlan).
With aloha,
Roger
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chuckscap
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Thanks Roger, since Harlan told me both the 505 Gibbs and the 500 Jeffery were a pain to get to feed correctly, the 500 Jeffery was an easy decision (no worries about bolt diameter). I really appreciate you going through the efforts you did . I think the conventional wisdom is that a .750 bolt is what you want for the Gibbs. Thanks so much for your advice. I'm probably a few more weeks from getting the rifle, then I still have to buy dies. RCBS is putting out the 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffery dies in a new "Safari set" at about 1/3 the price of their current offerings, so I plan to wait for them. Hopefully they'll be available this month.
Thanks again,
Chuck
Last edited on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 11:46 PM by chuckscap
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14th, 2009 06:01 PM |
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77th Post |
chuckscap
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Well, while I'm waiting for my 500 Jeffery to arrive, I'm planning to load up some 535g Woodleigh PPs at around 2000 fps for a light 500 Jeffery load for elk, deer, black bear this year. I figure it will be a nice 200 yard and under load in the timber and a good way to get used to the rifle. I ran the numbers on the recoil calculator:
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp
For a light 500 Jeffery elk load: 535g Woodleigh at 2000 fps (95g RL 15) in an 11.25 lb rifle (about what mine will weigh)
Recoil velocity: 18.41, recoil energy: 59.22 ft/lbs
For a comparison a 416 Rigby shooting a 400g bullet at 2400 fps in a 10 lb rifle:
Recoil velocity: 19.43 recoil energy: 58.61 ft/lbs
Of course full power 500 Jeffery loads 570g at 2300 fps (106g RL 15)
Recoil velocity: 22.03 recoil energy: 84.79
Ouch! lol gonna work up to that hopefully the two mercury recoil reducers and Pachmyer XLT recoil pad will soak some of that up ...
Regards,
Chuck
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TONK
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Chuckscap, I sure hope your able to pack that heavy shoulder cannon up and down those mountain benches during the elk hunting season. It gets real tuff on us Flatlanders with thin air to breath. I tried that one year with a .375H&H and gave up on the idea of heavy guns to tote in the high country.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 09:14 PM |
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chuckscap
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I just heard from Harlan at Triple River Gunsmithing. They finally got my McGowen barrel in, so I should have my rifle back as a 500 Jeffery in around 4 weeks. Can't wait ...
:)
Chuck
____________________
"There's a saying in prizefighting ... Everyone's got a plan until they get hit."
Michael Douglas "Ghost In The Darkness"
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