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PhilLozano
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Posted: 7 June 2005 07:02 AM |
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Stopping cartridges.
What caliber ?
Bullet weight ?
Velocity ?
You can choose a commercial or Wildcat cartridge, or dream up your own !
A post on your reasons why you made your choice would be appreciated.
Best,
PhilLast edited on 7 June 2005 07:10 AM by PhilLozano
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LilMag
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Posted: 7 June 2005 02:47 PM |
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Well now Phil, if I were a Rich Man and 30 years younger with a title of PH, I would most likely have a double gun as a STOPPER RIFLE! I fancy the 600 Nitro Express in a Holland & Holland because I have seen it's results on very big dangerous game like hippo and buffalo. The only thing that troubles me about those double guns, is their blasted weight. I really don't fancy myself carrying a 14 pound or heavier rifle around in 105 degree heat all day. I myself woulld have to hire a gun bearer for the task of totting that hunk of iron around, in the heat of 100 degree plus temps the African sun can bring down on the backside of hunters on foot.
However Phil, I am not a rich man and those years won't be coming back to me anytime soon. Nonetheless, I find it very hard to actually out due a bolt action rifle in the .458-Watts, .458-LOTT or the .450 Ackley, which do climb into the 2300fps velocity range.
I just believe that a 500 grain bullet in the .458 caliber is a tuff nut to crack, when it comes to penetration. I have read a lot of Pro's & Con's about those big 50 calibers but have never met anyone, who could function with one and get 3 shots off on target at 40 or 50 yards with superb accuracy. Now that brings up a very good caliber, that with the right powder has in the past and still today can do the job, the .458 Winchester magnum going 2100fps velocity wise with it's 500 grain bullet.
I do have in my vault a .470-Capstick that has had the chamber extended a wee bit more but I can't tell you, if that is a better designed caliber than the older .458-Watts, .450 Ackley or .458 Winchester magnum as far as stopping critters that would dine on your carcass in the blink of an eye or flatten you like a shinny new penny.
I believe above all else, that the hunter must be able to controll their rifle and be extremly accurate with said caliber rifle. I myself like the penetration of the .458-LOTT but my LOTT (no muzzle brake on barrel) does have far more muzzle jump than I want in a hunting rifle. I am thinking about having it Mag Na Ported! I would like to hear your opinion on that issue please Phil.
Last edited on 7 June 2005 03:10 PM by LilMag
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Timberghozt
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Posted: 7 June 2005 10:52 PM |
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Phil,I like my carcass pretty well and I beleive if I was going looking for a few tons of trouble I`d be toting a braked 460 Weatherby Magnum shooting a 600 gr Barnes Round Nose about 2400 fps at the muzzle or so if I could get it.
I don`t plan on shooting benchrest or plinking ,wasting soda cans with it.But in a full blown him or me and one of us is going to meet our maker duel....I`d sure rather have that one shot coming from this big Weatherby. 
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quigleysharps4570
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Posted: 7 June 2005 11:42 PM |
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The .475 A&M would get her done in any do or die situation I believe. A 500gr. bullet at almost 3000fps. and almost 10,000 muzzle energy...I wouldn't feel like running many target rounds through it though.
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PhilLozano
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Posted: 8 June 2005 08:00 AM |
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No bad choices so far.
Not all doubles weight 14 pounds. Mine is 11 lbs. 8 ozs.
It is a Westley in 450 3 1/4 (450 NE), and it has done me well.
I also have a 458 Lott at 10 3/4 lbs. that I wished I had made 11 3/4.
All the rifles mented in this thread will get your attention when the trigger breaks.
I do think that muzzle flip is a consideration in choosing a stopping rifle/cartridge.
That being said, Stoppers are not intended to be shot 2, 3 or 4 times. They are to be shot once, and end the story.
So, in that regard, muzzle flip is not a consideration. However, it is nice to know you can get 2 in, if you need them.
Personally, I want at least a 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps or a bit more. My Lott started life as a 458 Win. Mag., and I was not real happy with it. Once rechambered, it was all the Winnie was meant to be and more.
I like my 450 as well. I do not notice any difference between it and the 470 I had.
Muzzle breaks and porting (again this is a personal choice), I don't like them much. Too loud. My hearing is bad enough, I don't need more noise.
Regarding porting, muzzle breaks and recoil, I did not say this, but I wish I had of . . . . 'If you are going to take the life of a noble animal, you should feel the pain as well'.
Best,
Phil
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Timberghozt
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Posted: 8 June 2005 12:20 PM |
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Hey Phil.I agree on muzzle breaks.They are extremely loud.I have never owned a rifle with a break on it.I have shot a few with them and they certainly calm a bad rifle down a bit.
I load 6mm Rem for my dad in law and he has a break on his rifle.Without hearing protection it is hard on the eardrums.
This raises a question of ethics.Is it ethical,or more so I should say fair,to shoot one of these dangerous large animals with a braked rifle?Or should it solely be done with recoil and handling capability for a follow up shot unaltered by a brake?
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klallen
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Posted: 9 June 2005 02:56 AM |
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Not having much experience with African dangerous game stoppers, I'd consider the one on the left a stopper. I don't know if it's entirely necessary, but if stopping big and nasty things were on the schedule, I can't imagine this one having that much trouble accomplishing the task.
By the way, that's one of my .416 / .375 H&H rounds on the right, awaiting fireforming to get the correct .416 RemMag case dimensions. >> klallen
Attachment: 1.jpg (Downloaded 136 times)
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PhilLozano
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Posted: 9 June 2005 03:11 AM |
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OK Bwana,
I give. What is that monster next to your 416/375 ?
Best,
PhilLast edited on 9 June 2005 03:11 AM by PhilLozano
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klallen
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Posted: 9 June 2005 04:44 AM |
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It's the .577 Tyrannosaur.
I had to add the round for my fledgling dangerous cartridge collection.
Some spec's from COTW ... it's loaded to 30/30 pressure levels. A-Square's MAX load is listed as 177.5 grns. RL19 and a 750 gr. Solid yielding 2473 fps and 10180 # of energy. It's claimed that a 13# rifle with 3 mercury recoil supressers is less punishing then a WBY Mark 5 chambered for the .460 WbyMag. Can't say as I'm all that interested in seeing first hand if that claim is true. There's certainly an "I mean business" look to the cartridge. I find it interesting simply because it's a member of an extremely short list of cartridges legitimately capable of generating over 10K # energy at the muzzle. As I said in my last post, probably not necessary, but impressive all the same. Later. >> klallen
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macca
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Posted: 9 June 2005 05:01 AM |
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Klallen,That is one rifle(577Ty) I may give a miss too.If I remember there was a video of blokes breaking shoulders firing it.
I t would certainly fit the Supreme Stopper catergory.
I've always considered the 375 H&H good enough to stop anything.Anything above is just better insurance.
Macca
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PhilLozano
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Posted: 9 June 2005 06:48 AM |
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Yes, I know the cartridge you listed. It would do the job for sure.
I don't want to shoot it either. If I did, it might look something like these 'Brain Surgeons'
http://www.gunshop.com/videoclips/4bore_ouch_240x180x12fps.mov
You mention the recoil of the 460, personally, I think the 416 Weatherby recoils more than a 460.
Also, my opinion, if you are going to stop charges with a 375, you have some steel ones, my friend. Yes, it will do the job, but you had best not be off target more than a 1/4" (IMO).
I have stopped a few Buffalo with it, but did not like the experience much (and would not grab one again, unless it was all I could find).
Best,
Phil
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macca
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Posted: 9 June 2005 10:32 AM |
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Phil, not steel but I have used the 375H&H for just that job a couple of times.I trust my bruno at close quarters.
The dry mouth,weak knees afterwards well that let me know they are not steel.I know there are better calibers but confidence in your gear helps.I have also used the 460 & 378 weatherbys.
Macca
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Big John
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Posted: 9 June 2005 01:40 PM |
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| http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett/50cal28k.rm This is my idea of stopping power.
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PhilLozano
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Posted: 9 June 2005 06:36 PM |
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Mr. Macca,
The dry mouth,weak knees afterwards well that let me know they are not steel
Bwana, you forgot to add "wet pants" !
I will fully agree, confidence in what you are using is very important.
I just did not like the experience I had with the 375 H&H, or the 458 Win. Mag.
Now I have things with a bit more power. A bit more recoil, but a bit more effective, I think.
Every one will choose what they are comfortable with. I am not saying your choice is wrong. If it is right for you, no problem here.
Problem with dangerous game, if you choose wrong, you may not get to choose again.
Best,
Phil
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Phil
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Aussie steve
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Posted: 18 July 2008 01:37 AM |
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If I were a PH in Africa, and had the money I'd buy a .577 double with std loads firing 750 grain bullets at 2050 fps. The .577 was supposed to give better penetration than the .600, as well as being a few pounds lighter and with less recoil. I have a ruger number 1 being built atm in .577 NE 3" should weigh in at between 12 and 13 pounds, which is what the doubles apparently weighed. I am going to use 650 grain bullets for plinking/targets/fun and IF I get to chase a nasty critter with it I'll load up some 750 woodleighs. She'll boot like hell with 750's but if in a charge isituation its the last thing I'll be thinking of, and when its all said and done I recon I'll be glad I had it.
Steve
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miestro_jerry
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Posted: 19 July 2008 07:57 PM |
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I would use a 458 Winchester loaded with a solid bullet, probably Barnes or A Square. But I will have my 600 Nitro Express double rilfe as a back up.
Jerry
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Jmatson
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Posted: 20 July 2008 05:47 AM |
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I had 458 Lott that started life as an FN Browning Safari grade 458 Win. A good friend of mine that is gunsmith built it for me it weighed just under 9lbs when it was finished. Knowing that we had to add weight to the rifle I tried it out anyway. Recoil was terrible! We only could only bring the weight up to about 101/2lbs and like you said Phil, "I wish it was at least 111/2lbs". It is now a beautiful 404 Jeffery.
I have a 9.3x62, couple of 375 H&H's, a 416 Rem Mag on a BRNO 602 but I love my Anson Deelley 500 31/4" Double, it weighs just a little over 12lbs and groups about 2'' at 100 yards. I can shoot it very well off sticks or offhand. My handload is HDS brass 570 gr Woodlieghts Fed 215 primer 105.0 grs of H4350 for 2100fps. I find recoil is there but nothing like my 458 Lott used to be. I also have a practice load for the rifle that is cheeper and fun to shoot, 55.0 gr of Acc. Arms 5744 behind a 460gr gaschecked cast bullet sized to .512 it shoot exactly the same as that Woodleighs.
To answer your question, my stopping rifle will be my 500.
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miestro_jerry
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Posted: 20 July 2008 06:16 AM |
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I have played with some of these calibers and thet really whomp a sholder really good. But the 600 Nitro Express double rifle carries two 900grn bullets. Delivering about 7,500 pounds of energy at the muzzle and 5,500 pounds of energy at 100 Yards. This is what you call backup.
Loading this with 158 grains of H4831 makes this a brut of a rifle. People have made T/C Contender in this cartridge as well as revolvers.
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2006/02/tc_in_600_nitro.html
http://www.vincelewis.net/60magnum.html
I hate shooting this thing in a rifle form, but a pistol?
When the elephant or the rhino is charging you, having the double rifle in this monster caliber is the best thing you can have, short of artillery.
Jerry
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Slingshot
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Posted: 20 July 2008 07:59 AM |
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Here is my back up weapon. You should see my main gun  This should take care of those pesky pachyderm's.
Attachment: 105H_010.JPG (Downloaded 66 times) Last edited on 20 July 2008 08:02 AM by Slingshot
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miestro_jerry
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Posted: 20 July 2008 01:13 PM |
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I want to how your gun bearers carry this quietly thru the woods. :)
Jerry
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