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416 Rigby or 458 Lott
 Moderated by: PhilLozano, greysmoke
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 Posted: Sun Sep 21st, 2008 04:02 PM
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oscar1975
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Hello friends, I am presenting my name is Oscar, I am Spanish and well, I have no money, no intention to go to any safari, but I want to have a high caliber and I have a dilemma, between the caliber Rigby 416 or 458 Lott. I just want your opinion, is a luxury that I really want to do. I like the Rigby, but I see that their ammunition is very expensive, I also love the 458 Lott and has the advantage that can also shoot the 458 Winchester Mangnum.

Thank you,

Oscar.

I am Spanish:troll:



 Posted: Mon Sep 22nd, 2008 01:38 AM
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PhilLozano
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Hey Oscar,

Welcome to the forum.

Have a look at this link, and if you have more questions, let me know.


http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum51/3070.html



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Phil

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 Posted: Mon Sep 22nd, 2008 03:50 AM
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oscar1975
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Thank you very much Phil.:thumbs:

 

Oscar



 Posted: Thu Dec 4th, 2008 01:59 PM
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LilMag
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Hello Oscar,  have you ever considered the .416 Remington? I purchased one several years ago and at the time, the ammo for it was half the price of the .416 Rigby ammo.

I personally think that the .416 Rigby, 416 Remington is more versatile than the .458 Winchester magnum. The .416's seem to penetrate deeper than a .458 Winchester magnum bullet. I once remember looking at pictures of a bull elephant that was shot in the rear with a .416 Rigby 400 grain solid and that bullet penetrated some 22 feet of tusker. Peter V put those photos up for us to view.:wink:



 Posted: Thu Dec 4th, 2008 02:05 PM
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LilMag
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Oscar I find that holding the .458-LOTT on target for the second shot after the first shot has been fired, is a very hard thing to accomplish, unless the rifle has some sort of muzzle brake on it or at least been ported at the end of the barrel.

I can get 3 shots off on target with a .458 Win mag and .416 Remington magnum but NOT the .458-LOTT.......it has NO Muzzle Brake OK.

I now have a .470-Capstick that has the barrel Mag-na-Ported and shooting with a PAST recoil pad, lets me shoot and keep 3 shot groups on target. It is on a model 70 Winchester action with reinforced steel rods in the walnut stock.:wink:



 Posted: Sat Dec 6th, 2008 06:13 AM
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oscar1975
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Hi, thanks for your answer HiBall, I thought about the caliber Remington 416 Magnum, but the problem is that the rifle that fires are more expensive than a Ceska Lott of 458 or 416 Rigby. I am aware that re-shoot with the 458 Lott is difficult due to its high setback, but neither do I'm going to go hunting with him to Africa, is more a quirk of loving arms that otherwise. As I have already said thank you for your responses and I count my decision when I have money to buy the rifle jejeje:wink:. I'm saving euros.

Oscar.



 Posted: Sat Dec 6th, 2008 06:18 AM
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oscar1975
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Hi Ball wrote:

 I once remember looking at pictures of a bull elephant that was shot in the rear with a .416 Rigby 400 grain solid and that bullet penetrated some 22 feet of tusker. Peter V put those photos up for us to view.:wink:


By the way could you tell me where are the photographs that went up Peter V?, If you want to copy the link please.

Thank you,

Oscar.



 Posted: Sat Dec 6th, 2008 12:28 PM
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PhilLozano
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oscar1975 wrote: Hi Ball wrote:

 I once remember looking at pictures of a bull elephant that was shot in the rear with a .416 Rigby 400 grain solid and that bullet penetrated some 22 feet of tusker. Peter V put those photos up for us to view.:wink:


By the way could you tell me where are the photographs that went up Peter V?, If you want to copy the link please.

Thank you,

Oscar.

I'd like to see them as well !



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http://www.go-on-safari.com
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 Posted: Sun Dec 7th, 2008 02:56 PM
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PhilLozano
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I know the 416's have excellent penetration.  Probably more than any other caliber.  It would be interesting to see/read the article.



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 Posted: Sun Dec 7th, 2008 03:38 PM
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wheezengeezer
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PhilLozano wrote: I know the 416's have excellent penetration.  Probably more than any other caliber.  It would be interesting to see/read the article.

is it partially to do with a greater sectional density?



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 Posted: Mon Mar 2nd, 2009 01:10 AM
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416RigbyHunter
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wheezengeezer wrote: PhilLozano wrote: I know the 416's have excellent penetration.  Probably more than any other caliber.  It would be interesting to see/read the article.

is it partially to do with a greater sectional density?
Wheezen,
I can affirm that the 416 cal out penetrates 458 cal by a good margin.

I have bullet boxes, copied from Jack Lott's, that are 6' long, and 1' wide by 2' high.
The 416 Woodleigh 410gr RNSN bullet out of my 416Rigby sailed clean through the entire box, found it in the back stop, 15' behind the box.
The 458 Woodleigh 500gr RNSN out of a 458Lott was found 2' from the rear of the box, total penetration of 4'.
The penetration of the 416 bullets is remarkable, I have not seen another cal even come close to this.
I was surprised how much a 338 cal 250gr SP bullet penetrates also, within a few inches of the very rear of the box, more than 375's and 458's.:confused:

I have not tried solids in any cal, because I don't plan on hunting with any, but I would assume they would go end to end on the largest game in 416 cal.

You are correct in the sectional density being the decisive factor, another thing is that the 416 bullets keep the folded petals very close to the shank of the bullet, while the 458's seem to open and stay splayed out.
The Woodleigh's have given the most consistent 'mushrooms' of any bullet I've tested, with Nosler Partitions a close second, as long as muzzle velocity was not too high.
Cheers.
416RigbyHunter.
:sofa:



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 Posted: Fri Jun 18th, 2010 10:24 AM
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416forbuffalo
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And the 416 rigby can shoot flat, flat, flat.
2950 fps with 300 grain TSX bullets,
or for buffalo,
2700 fps with 350 grain Barnes TSX bullets.

Penetration  is good to go. The Lott cannot achieve
the lighter bullet flat versatility and the 416 Rem can't
be handloaded up like the Rigby.

luego



 Posted: Fri Jun 18th, 2010 02:00 PM
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PhilLozano
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416forbuffalo wrote: And the 416 rigby can shoot flat, flat, flat.
2950 fps with 300 grain TSX bullets,
or for buffalo,
2700 fps with 350 grain Barnes TSX bullets.

Penetration  is good to go. The Lott cannot achieve
the lighter bullet flat versatility and the 416 Rem can't
be handloaded up like the Rigby.

luego


All the 416's are basically the same (with the Weatherby being an exception).

'Shooting flat' is not something I would rank ahead of 'power' when choosing a DG cartridge.

The Rigby, Remington and Taylor are all good cartridges in the 416 class.

If stopping power is required, the 458 Lott would top them all.




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 Posted: Sat Jun 19th, 2010 06:47 AM
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416forbuffalo
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PhilLozano wrote

All the 416's are basically the same (with the Weatherby being an exception).



The case capacity of the Rigby can be loaded up to Weatherby stats in a big action like the CZ 550s. In fact, many categorize the Weatherby as 'the Rigby case with a belt'. [[disclaimer--load data for Weatherby cannot be used in the Rigby! The Weatherby case is slightly larger and needs a few more grains of powder, even though both Roy and Rigby cases can be reasonably ranked together.]]

Of course, more speed does not help with buffalo, it only allows one to reach way out there for antelope with the same rifle. Maybe it adds 25-50 yards to the practical range. Not everyone's cup of shai, but definitely versatile. But as one can see, our 2650fps loads with 350 TSX are only halfway taking advantage of the Rigby case capacity. (Besides, my son and I like 338s for antelope. A useful thread might be a discussion of pros and cons of a long shot in real African situations.)

I've considered getting something bigger, with more diameter, but I haven't been able to justify the costs to myself for my limited hunting. 458 Lott would probably be the most cost effective. It's available in standard factory models. The 450 Rigby (now offered by CZ500 but only as a custom $3000 order) duplicates the ambiguity of situation at 416: it allows one to handload to 460 Weatherby stats in 458 should they wish. Then there's the 505 Gibbs. Even bigger than the Rigby case. But before I get to the stage of considering a purchase, I think to myself, "I've already got a 416 Rigby." It's a good rifle, it works, it does the job. I don't hunt elephant, just buffalo and antelope.

If someone gets bitten by the 50 cal bug, they might want to look at the 50 B&M, a custom Win70, short action rifle with 18"-20" barrels. The developer likes it for in-tight elephant culling. That's a pretty specialized situation, but maybe not too different from where a PH ends up. Even I don't want to consider making a 50 calibre into a long range antelope rifle [joke]. A knockout punch within 200 yards is just fine. 2000fps.



 Posted: Sat Jun 19th, 2010 01:01 PM
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PhilLozano
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Velocity is not the "end all" consideration when choosing a cartridge, IMO.

The 416 Rigby is a nice cartridge, but not better in results on Buffalo than a 416 Remington or 416 Taylor.

I had the opportunity to test one of the first 416 Remmies on Buffalo in Tanzania. It worked well, however, not as well as my 458 Lott.

When hunting Buffalo, or any other DG, diameter, bullet weight and bullet construction count (in my book) a lot more than velocity.

Seldom are animals shot at more than 150 yards (Masailand can be the exception), if anyone is shooting farther than that, they should improve their stalking skills.



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 Posted: Sat Oct 8th, 2011 03:02 AM
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Anjin
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PhilLozano wrote:
I know the 416's have excellent penetration.  Probably more than any other caliber.  It would be interesting to see/read the article.


Ken Royce discusses this at length in the chapter on rifles and cartridges for cape buffalo on up, in Safari Dreams. He is partial to the.416 Rigby and Remington (he has the latter in a recent CRF Winchester 70.) He covers the pros and cons, though both cartridges have the same basic performance specs.

He cites the situations in which such better penetration is desirable, and the ones where a greater bullet diameter would be preferable. He also quotes Boddington and Wieland quite a bit.

It covers this topic pretty well.



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 Posted: Sat Oct 8th, 2011 05:01 PM
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all-
I love reading through this thread and if you are into BIG game you will enjoy yourself:

http://handloadersbench.com/view_topic.php?id=8730&forum_id=26



 Posted: Mon Jun 4th, 2012 08:54 PM
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260 rem
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I have owned a 458 Lott and it dose not kick that much I had 500 grain slugs doing 2250 fps and would take out three 2L milk plastic milk bottles in just under 6 seconds



 Posted: Tue Jun 5th, 2012 04:10 PM
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Offfhand
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Don't forget the faithful .458 Win Mag. It's still the "go to" caliber among many African and Alaskan PHs



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