| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 05:27 AM |
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21st Post |
Rockydog
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Perhaps the Taylor Knock Out formula might be more applicable here. There is a calculator over at another site. Of course the company over there might not be as cordial as here.  RD
http://www.reloadammo.com/tkofactor2.htm
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 05:43 AM |
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22nd Post |
klallen
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lol r d. another priceless formula. i've heard so many debunk the old tko formula, i honestly don't know if there's a relavence, any more. we may have to move to that one now that we've proven the P.I. formula won't work universally for rifle and handgun.
anyway, here is an article i've been looking for that kinda wraps up in a nice little bow what i've been saying. linebaugh puts these seminars on regularly for folks and then has these penetration demonstration. no mickey mouse formulas that illustrate nothing. simply head to head, cartridge to cartridge comparisons. different cartridges at different seminars. it is really pretty enlightening to see these cartridges in action rather then try and define them by formula numbers. read. enjoy. disregard, if you must. investigate further, if you doubt. whatever you choose to do. just don't tell me a big revolver with a heavy cast solid at moderate velocities won't penetrate. and do so well.
this is why i answered like i did when asked how i thought a .454 would have performed if used in place of a .458 . large handguns and their large meplat bullets work in very different ways then rifle bullets. energy isn't necessarily what defines what a handgun bullet can do. that's why it's hard to quantify rifle and handgun performance and have valid comparisons using only formulas and numbers. they never jive. unfortunately, to many get so hung up on these formulas and their intended use with "rifle" bullets that they simply can not believe what a handgun cartridge is capable of. anyway, here's a little penetration reality (i.e. actual shooting). all handgun hunting reports i've been privy to (and i've investigated the subject for the better part of 9 years now) indicate findings translate very favorably to actual on game performance.
taken from the july, 2002 american handgunner :
This is a test. Rank the following in order from that offering the deepest to the shallowest penetration: .500 Nitro Express, .458 Win. Mag., .45-70, .500 Linebaugh and .45 Colt. If you're like most shooters, you would probably say they are already in the right order -- and you would be wrong. The true ranking is neither a guess nor an opinion, but rather fact gained under controlled conditions. I have just returned from the first annual Big Bore Sixgun Seminar hosted in Cody, Wyo., by custom gun-maker John Linebaugh.
Most -- make that all -- seminars I have attended in the past have been presented by firearms manufacturers with the express purpose of showcasing their products. This seminar was quite different. Over 100 of us gathered to discuss big bore sixguns, how they work, why they work and, most importantly, why they are so effective on big game. No one was selling anything except truth.
We spent the first morning discussing big bore sixguns with Linebaugh and then the afternoon was spent doing actual penetration tests with the biggest sixguns and rifles available.
For any cartridge to be effective -- whether it's fired from a sixgun or rifle -- the "Four Ps" must be in place. Those are Placement, Power, Performance and Penetration. We define these terms as follows.
Placement: where the bullet strikes the intended target.
Power: the muzzle energy or TKO value.
Performance: whether the bullet expands, holds together, or comes apart.
Penetration: how deeply the bullet travels in the target medium, especially in a large animal.
Certainly a solid bullet, whether hardcast or jacketed, can be expected to penetrate much deeper than a jacketed hollowpoint or soft nose. That is a given. The wise hunter decides, according to his intended quarry, whether he needs ultimate expansion, deepest possible penetration or a combination of both.
As a shooter of big bore sixguns for well over four decades, and also one who knows how effective sixguns can be on big game, I must say I was surprised at how effective various sixgun cartridges proved to be during the penetration tests. For the shooting and experimentation, the standard bundles of newspaper soaked in livestock watering tanks were used. No guess. No golly. No opinion.
Going back to the five cartridges mentioned at the beginning the results were most interesting. Randy Garrett's .45-70 Hammerhead 530 gr. hardcast at 1,550 fps went 55" into wet newspaper. A 495 gr. hardcast .500 Linebaugh fired from a 5.5" sixgun with a muzzle velocity of 1,270 fps was right behind it at 52".
The .500 Nitro Express with a solid weighing 570 grs. came in third at 48", followed by the .458 Win. Mag. with a 500 gr. solid traveling at a muzzle velocity of 2,260 fps and 47" of penetration. Finally, the .45 Colt with a 350 gr. hardcast bullet at 1,400 fps gave 43" of penetration, or only 5" less than the .500 Nitro and 4" less than the .458.
Of course, the .45 Colt load tested is only for use in the Freedom Arms .454 or custom five-shot .45 Colt revolvers.
Other Cartridges
The .44 Magnum was not really given a thorough testing as the only load on hand was a 250 gr. Keith bullet at 1,200 fps which went 27" into the wet newsprint. At next year's seminar, hopefully we will have a larger variation of .44 Magnum loads to test, especially with 300 gr. bullets at muzzle velocities from 1,200 to 1,400 fps.
We also had only one load for the new .480 Ruger, Hornady's factory offering of a 325 gr. XTP at 1,350 fps. This round is not designed for deepest penetration but did expand well and travel 17" into the newsprint.
How did the truly big bore sixguns compare, the Big Berthas, the .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .475 and .500 Linebaughs? For the .45 Colt, in addition to the already mentioned load, a 310 gr. Keith at 1,250 fps -- one of my favorite loads and safe for use in Ruger's Blackhawk or Bisley -- penetrated 36", while the 300 gr. LBT traveling at 1,180 fps penetrated 2" deeper.
Using Cor-Bon's 360 gr. bonded core at 1,500 fps in the .454 yielded 45" of penetration. Moving up to the .475 Linebaugh, a 420 gr. LBT at 1,335 fps did 47" while the same bullet at an easy-shooting 1,050 fps still penetrated to 40".
We have already mentioned the second-place finishing .500 Linebaugh load. Others from this category of the biggest of the big bores included a 480 gr. Keith-style bullet at 1,200 fps and 41"; a 435 gr. LBT at 1,270 fps, 38"; and a 435 gr. LBT at only 1,000 fps still went 34" into the test medium.
This tells me that for most of us, and the game we pursue, either a .475 or .500 Linebaugh traveling at a relatively sedate 1,000 fps will do anything and everything we could ever hope for.
Actually, we can draw the further conclusion that the .44 Magnum with a 250 gr. bullet at 1,200 fps or a 300 gr. .45 Colt at 1,250 fps will certainly handle any deer that walks -- but then we already knew that!
Now we know with actual experimentation why it is big bore sixguns perform so well on large or dangerous animals including Cape buffalo, elephant, lion and the big bears of Alaska.
The big bore sixguns in this case, from top left clockwise Ruger .44 Magnum Freedom Arms .454 and Ruger Custom .45 Colt.
Ruger Custom .500 Linebaugh and Freedom Arms .475 Linebaugh can actually out penetrate most rifles.
"Who says the .500 Linebaugh doesn't kick?"
Cartridge Bullet Velocity Penetration
.45-70 530 gr. hardcast lead 1,550 fps 55"
.500 Linebaugh 495 gr. hardcast lead 1,270 fps 52"
.500 Nitro Express 570 gr. FMJ solid 2,000 fps 48"
.458 Win. Mag. 500 gr. FMJ solid 2,260 fps 47"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,335 fps 47"
.454 Casull 360 gr. honded core 1,500 fps 45"
.45 Colt 350 gr. hardcast lead 1,400 fps 43"
.500 Linebaugh 480 gr. Keith 1,200 fps 41"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,050 fps 40"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,270 fps 38"
.45 Colt 300 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,180 fps 38"
.45 Colt 310 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,250 fps 36"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,000 fps 34"
.44 Magnum 250 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,200 fps 27" |
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 03:42 PM |
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23rd Post |
recoil freak
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Once again I really didn't mean to "open the proverbial can" with this one but I must say that It's very interesting and has become a true learning experience. Thank you both
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 04:08 PM |
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24th Post |
klallen
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that's what it's all about, r f . learning things. expanding knowledge. investigating topics.
i learned something here, as well ... ya can't use handguns in tanzania. who knew. i do now. lol.
and i tracked down that magazine article. lost the mag somewhere and been looking to get that article for years. good to find it again.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 04:37 PM |
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25th Post |
PhilLozano
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klallen wrote: we may have to move to that one now that we've proven the P.I. formula won't work universally for rifle and handgun.
Nothing of the sort has been proven here. If you don't like these formulas, how about the kenetic energy formula. You believe that one ? When it comes down to which cartridges can cut it and which ones can't, there must be some reason the countries that have dangerous game, require a 375 as the minimum cartridge. If you look at the minimum cartridge energy level, that would be about 4,000 ft. lbs. Please show me a handgun cartridge that develops anything close to this energy level.
anyway, here is an article i've been looking for that kinda wraps up in a nice little bow what i've been saying. linebaugh puts these seminars on regularly for folks and then has these penetration demonstration. no mickey mouse formulas that illustrate nothing. simply head to head, cartridge to cartridge comparisons. different cartridges at different seminars. it is really pretty enlightening to see these cartridges in action rather then try and define them by formula numbers. read. enjoy. disregard, if you must. investigate further, if you doubt. whatever you choose to do. just don't tell me a big revolver with a heavy cast solid at moderate velocities won't penetrate. and do so well.
Perhaps. Until there is a 'control' and an 'unbias test(er)', not sure what good these tests are. I certianly am bias, so could not do such a test. Art has a bias, Boddington has a bias, you have a bias, so who should do the testing ? A guy on my forum is doing a test on 45/70 Garret ammo vs. 458 caliber ammo. However, his results will be bias as well. Until someone that has nothing to gain by the results of the test, do the test, I will view results not by wet newspaper, but by how many times it puts me in a bad position. Do I have a bias ? You bet ! The amount of times I have had to go in a root out a wounded Buff cannot all be attrubited to bad shooting. However, I have had to 'go in' after more Buff shot with the 375 than with any other cartridge. And these handgun cartridges cannot come close to the 375 energy wise.
Garrett has been spouting his stuff for years. You want to believe it, ok, no problem. You will also notice, these "testing guys" are not going after Buff alone.
They always are toting someone else along to go clean up thier mess, should it occour. And these guys that are 'along' are not toting rifles that shoot Garrett ammo. It seems that none of these 'testers' are the ones putting their life(s) on the line to prove their results. And until, it is truely a situation (when a Buff charges) of 'one of of you is going to die' can you accurately make that call. Do you want to use something that "might work" or would you rather put your faith in something that has proven to work.
this is why i answered like i did when asked how i thought a .454 would have performed if used in place of a .458 . large handguns and their large meplat bullets work in very different ways then rifle bullets. energy isn't necessarily what defines what a handgun bullet can do.
If energy is not what defines what a handgun cartridge can do, why does 'everyone' quote energy figures in rifle cartridges ? I'd bet everyone on this forum has quoted energy figures for rifle cartridges a time or two. And, if it is not energy figures, how does anyone know what ANY cartridge can do ? You can take that as far as you want. How do we know the formulas for S.D. and B.C. are correct ?
Perhaps you are correct, maybe it is all just ******* magic, smoke and mirrors.
that's why it's hard to quantify rifle and handgun performance and have valid comparisons using only formulas and numbers. they never jive. unfortunately, to many get so hung up on these formulas and their intended use with "rifle" bullets that they simply can not believe what a handgun cartridge is capable of. anyway, here's a little penetration reality (i.e. actual shooting). all handgun hunting reports i've been privy to (and i've investigated the subject for the better part of 9 years now) indicate findings translate very favorably to actual on game performance.
All formulas are bias, for or against something. The kenetic energy formula is stacked in favor of velocity.
The 'Pounds feet' (not properly named, but that is what they called it) formula is stacked in favor of large projectiles, moving at a moderate velocity. Mostly, because Einstein's therory (E=MC2)has not been proven and only had been considered to be correct.
taken from the july, 2002 american handgunner :
This is a test. Rank the following in order from that offering the deepest to the shallowest penetration: .500 Nitro Express, .458 Win. Mag., .45-70, .500 Linebaugh and .45 Colt. If you're like most shooters, you would probably say they are already in the right order -- and you would be wrong. The true ranking is neither a guess nor an opinion, but rather fact gained under controlled conditions. I have just returned from the first annual Big Bore Sixgun Seminar hosted in Cody, Wyo., by custom gun-maker John Linebaugh.
Most -- make that all -- seminars I have attended in the past have been presented by firearms manufacturers with the express purpose of showcasing their products. This seminar was quite different. Over 100 of us gathered to discuss big bore sixguns, how they work, why they work and, most importantly, why they are so effective on big game. No one was selling anything except truth.
We spent the first morning discussing big bore sixguns with Linebaugh and then the afternoon was spent doing actual penetration tests with the biggest sixguns and rifles available.
For any cartridge to be effective -- whether it's fired from a sixgun or rifle -- the "Four Ps" must be in place. Those are Placement, Power, Performance and Penetration. We define these terms as follows.
Placement: where the bullet strikes the intended target.
Power: the muzzle energy or TKO value.
Not a valid formula, as was stated above.
Performance: whether the bullet expands, holds together, or comes apart.
No mention of the bullets used in the rifle cartridges
Penetration: how deeply the bullet travels in the target medium, especially in a large animal.
Certainly a solid bullet, whether hardcast or jacketed, can be expected to penetrate much deeper than a jacketed hollowpoint or soft nose. That is a given. The wise hunter decides, according to his intended quarry, whether he needs ultimate expansion, deepest possible penetration or a combination of both.
True. I still find it hard to believe that 'hardcast' bullets are stronger and resist being deformed as well as steel jacketed solids. Hardcast bullets must have more lead in them than steel jacketed solids (of equal weight). Last I checked, steel was harder than lead.
As a shooter of big bore sixguns for well over four decades, and also one who knows how effective sixguns can be on big game, I must say I was surprised at how effective various sixgun cartridges proved to be during the penetration tests.
Bias
For the shooting and experimentation, the standard bundles of newspaper soaked in livestock watering tanks were used.
You can use ballistic gel, wet newspaper, wet cardboard, plywood and saw dust, or any combination of these things. However, most all will admit, there is no testing to duplicate the same results as shooting at animals.
No guess. No golly. No opinion.
No shirt, no shoes, no service.
Going back to the five cartridges mentioned at the beginning the results were most interesting. Randy Garrett's .45-70 Hammerhead 530 gr. hardcast at 1,550 fps went 55" into wet newspaper. A 495 gr. hardcast .500 Linebaugh fired from a 5.5" sixgun with a muzzle velocity of 1,270 fps was right behind it at 52".
The .500 Nitro Express with a solid weighing 570 grs. came in third at 48", followed by the .458 Win. Mag. with a 500 gr. solid traveling at a muzzle velocity of 2,260 fps and 47" of penetration. Finally, the .45 Colt with a 350 gr. hardcast bullet at 1,400 fps gave 43" of penetration, or only 5" less than the .500 Nitro and 4" less than the .458.
Of course, the .45 Colt load tested is only for use in the Freedom Arms .454 or custom five-shot .45 Colt revolvers.
Other Cartridges
The .44 Magnum was not really given a thorough testing as the only load on hand was a 250 gr. Keith bullet at 1,200 fps which went 27" into the wet newsprint. At next year's seminar, hopefully we will have a larger variation of .44 Magnum loads to test, especially with 300 gr. bullets at muzzle velocities from 1,200 to 1,400 fps.
We also had only one load for the new .480 Ruger, Hornady's factory offering of a 325 gr. XTP at 1,350 fps. This round is not designed for deepest penetration but did expand well and travel 17" into the newsprint.
How did the truly big bore sixguns compare, the Big Berthas, the .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .475 and .500 Linebaughs? For the .45 Colt, in addition to the already mentioned load, a 310 gr. Keith at 1,250 fps -- one of my favorite loads and safe for use in Ruger's Blackhawk or Bisley -- penetrated 36", while the 300 gr. LBT traveling at 1,180 fps penetrated 2" deeper.
Using Cor-Bon's 360 gr. bonded core at 1,500 fps in the .454 yielded 45" of penetration. Moving up to the .475 Linebaugh, a 420 gr. LBT at 1,335 fps did 47" while the same bullet at an easy-shooting 1,050 fps still penetrated to 40".
We have already mentioned the second-place finishing .500 Linebaugh load. Others from this category of the biggest of the big bores included a 480 gr. Keith-style bullet at 1,200 fps and 41"; a 435 gr. LBT at 1,270 fps, 38"; and a 435 gr. LBT at only 1,000 fps still went 34" into the test medium.
This tells me that for most of us, and the game we pursue, either a .475 or .500 Linebaugh traveling at a relatively sedate 1,000 fps will do anything and everything we could ever hope for.
Actually, we can draw the further conclusion that the .44 Magnum with a 250 gr. bullet at 1,200 fps or a 300 gr. .45 Colt at 1,250 fps will certainly handle any deer that walks -- but then we already knew that!
Now we know with actual experimentation why it is big bore sixguns perform so well on large or dangerous animals including Cape buffalo, elephant, lion and the big bears of Alaska.
The big bore sixguns in this case, from top left clockwise Ruger .44 Magnum Freedom Arms .454 and Ruger Custom .45 Colt.
Ruger Custom .500 Linebaugh and Freedom Arms .475 Linebaugh can actually out penetrate most rifles.
Whatever you want to believe is ok with me. Chances are you will not be shooting Buffalo with a handgun, as it is illegal in most countries. Perhaps in South Africa, as they can 'change the rules' due to the laws there. Additionally, the Buff there are not really the same as in other countries. There is very little predator prey relationship there.
No one 'wants' to go to extremes to prove their point, and that is why until these tests are done on the real thing (Buffalo), with a 'succeed or go home in a box' result, I will continue to use what has plenty of anecdotal evidence as well as more practical experience (than I would have liked) than experimental cartridges, I will just cruse along, useing 'dark age' cartridges.
As old and ugly as I am, I still enjoy life.
Good discussion . . . . . . . . . I don't think either one of us will change the others mind, but good discussion.
"Who says the .500 Linebaugh doesn't kick?"
Cartridge Bullet Velocity Penetration
.45-70 530 gr. hardcast lead 1,550 fps 55"
.500 Linebaugh 495 gr. hardcast lead 1,270 fps 52"
.500 Nitro Express 570 gr. FMJ solid 2,000 fps 48"
.458 Win. Mag. 500 gr. FMJ solid 2,260 fps 47"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,335 fps 47"
.454 Casull 360 gr. honded core 1,500 fps 45"
.45 Colt 350 gr. hardcast lead 1,400 fps 43"
.500 Linebaugh 480 gr. Keith 1,200 fps 41"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,050 fps 40"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,270 fps 38"
.45 Colt 300 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,180 fps 38"
.45 Colt 310 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,250 fps 36"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,000 fps 34"
.44 Magnum 250 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,200 fps 27" |
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11th, 2009 07:59 PM |
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26th Post |
klallen
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i'm not interested in changing minds, p l .
i'm looking to get as much relavent info out there so that someone else reading this string can develop an informed opinion on the subject. honestly, if all they had to go on was a worthless p. i. formula and someone saying i don't "think" it'd work, they'd just be uninformed.
i think reasonable folks can look at the penetration data in my last post and see that they are as unbiased as data can be. it wouldn't matter if it were me, you, linebaugh or joe-blow down the street. if we were firing the same firearms, same loads into the same target medium at the same distance, we'd get the same results. that is the definition of unbiased. you can't manipulate the data to conform to an agenda. it simply is what it is.
the fastest way a fella tries to discredit data is to claim bias. more then anything else, this means they have no better explaintion for what is being shown so they cry foul. in short, they're saying i have no idea how or why a .454casull 360gr cast solid at 1500fps penetrates to within 2" of a .458winmag 500gr solid at 2260fps, so it simply can't be so. what's being shown must be a manipulation of actual results.
you've been adament with your stance, p l . with nothing of substance to back it up. investigate the topic. research it. you'll see.
or
don't investigate it. don't research it. and remain uninformed on what handgun cartridges are capable of doing. either way, it's of no never-mind to me. as i said earlier, i'm not in the business of changing minds.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12th, 2009 02:00 AM |
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27th Post |
PhilLozano
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Pistol cartridges are more powerful than rifle cartridges and penetrate better as well.
Lead is harder and tougher than steel.
Secretly, the last time I got charged, I wished I had a handgun instead of my rifle.
Anecdotal evidence for the past 100 years on the use and suitability of African big game cartridges is incorrect, due to this data posted here.
You say mentioning bias is the only way I try to defend my position. The guys says, he has shot big bore handguns for 40 years. He does not say he has shot rifles. Maybe he knows very little about rifles, who knows ?
Also, there is no detail of the ammo being used in the rifles, no velocities, nothing. No distances the shots were taken listed.
I assume you will be dumping all your rifles, . . . . now that velocity has no bearing on K.E. or projected power. Since ballistic have been recorded, it is difficult for me to believe that there has been a grand conspiracy against hangun cartridges, and they cannot be measured the same a rifle cartridges.
The Buffs that have come for me, . . . the Elephants, Hippo's, Lions, etc., that I've dumped before they did the same to me, I guess all that was just an illusion.
You want to be a believer, ok, no problem for me, it's a free country.
Last edited on Thu Mar 12th, 2009 02:17 AM by PhilLozano
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Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12th, 2009 03:21 AM |
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28th Post |
klallen
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and then comes the sarcasm. basically an admission, "i have no idea how handguns do what they do, so i'll make light of it".
i have this nasty feeling you could witness 1st hand a hunter dispatch a cape buffalo with a .475linebaugh and a 440 gr. cast solid and your attitude and arrogance simply would not allow you to admit to yourself that what you had just witnessed had actually happened.
folks successfully hunt dangerous game with handguns more often then you think. weather you want to admit it to your self is of no concequence. it happens. handgun cartridges work. they hit hard and kill efficiently. this fact does nothing to discredit or disregard what rifle cartridges can do on dangerous game. handguns simply work.
no i will not be getting rid of my .416remmag or any of my rifles any time soon but i'll also be keeping the .454casull or .500s&wmag. i know what they have to offer, as well.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12th, 2009 04:08 AM |
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29th Post |
PhilLozano
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klallen wrote: and lastly, the sarcasm.
Well, . . . . . . is lead stronger than steel ?
if the rifle cartridges can bend steel jacketed solids (I've found bent solids in critters),
would it make sense to shoot hardcast bullets ?
Was any load data given for the rifles ?
Was there a distance that each was tested at ?
He did mention he has shot big bore pistols for 40 years. Why didn't he mention he aso shot rifles for 40 years.
Is he employed by Garrett ? If not, who then ?
If you cannot see that this was a bit bias, ok, . . . . . .
as I said, be a believer, no problem.
When your time comes to shoot a Buffalo, are you willing to bet the $3,000 trophy fee that the handgun cartridge you have chosen is the right choice.
As I have said before, if the Game Scout finds 1 drop of blood, the trophy fee is yours to pay, whether we find the critter or not.
Not saying it can't happen with a rifle, but you shoot him through the leg muscle, he's yours. And you won't find him (that has nothing to do with cartridges, but with accuracy. Just trying to illustrate a point).
klallen wrote: i will not be getting rid of my .416remmag just as i will not be getting rid of my .454casull or .500s&wmag.
If the last two are as effective as the first listed, that would render it redundant.
Just a guess, but I would say I have a bit more of 'hands on' experience at seeing animals shot. I've seen some things that work and seen some things that fail to work.
I see clients take ruffly a hundred animals each year (not counting my own hunting). I've even used a handgun ! And although, I don't shoot handguns well, I was successful. I have seen my fair share of critters taken with a handgun (not in Africa).
With all that B.S. aside, I have seen quite a few Buffalo taken in my day. Many are hit hard (like the one in the link), and if a 458 Winnie develops 5,000 ft. lbs. of energy, and a Buffalo can take more than a few before he gets sick enough to lay down, . . . . . . . I'm thinking, any handgun won't cut it.
The shots that hit the Buff (in the link), I doubt you could say they were misplaced,. or not very effective (as some of them went through), now, as I said, that Buff went more than 60 yards. If the Buff come at you instead of running away, are the handgun cartridges considered "A STOPPER" ?
Few people can comprehend the punishment a Buffalo can take. Until you see it for yourself, you may have belief that handguns are as effective as rifle cartridges.
As I said before, OK, . . . . . no problem.
Last edited on Thu Mar 12th, 2009 04:10 AM by PhilLozano
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12th, 2009 05:30 AM |
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30th Post |
klallen
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PhilLozano wrote: Well, . . . . . . is lead stronger than steel ? no. however, the alloy these companies use for their solids intended for dangerous game use will not deform.
if the rifle cartridges can bend steel jacketed solids (I've found bent solids in critters),
would it make sense to shoot hardcast bullets ? see above.
Was any load data given for the rifles ? what data do you need? grains of powder and primer used? no data was given for the handguns, either. simply cartridge, bullet style and weight, velocity and penetration in the same test medium.
Was there a distance that each was tested at ? i saw no ranges given but would guess a reasonable handgun distance was used for all rounds.
He did mention he has shot big bore pistols for 40 years. Why didn't he mention he aso shot rifles for 40 years. taffin's expertice is big bore handguns. it isn't him that puts on these shooting demonstrations. it's linebaugh, himself. a gunsmith. i would guess he knows his firearms, rifle and handgun. besides, what's the point? you reference alphin's any shot you want and seem to put a weighted sum of importance on what he says. he doesn't have a reloading section in his manual for handguns and speaks nothing of their capabilities on a single page of his 600+ page book. does this suggest handguns don't exist? or that he has no intimate knowledge of what a modern handgun cartridge is capable of?
Is he employed by Garrett ? If not, who then ? at the time of the article i believe taffin was a contributing editor of the mag.
If you cannot see that this was a bit bias, ok, . . . . . .
as I said, be a believer, no problem.
When your time comes to shoot a Buffalo, are you willing to bet the $3,000 trophy fee that the handgun cartridge you have chosen is the right choice. i have no doubt the power's there. if i have sufficiently prepared myself for the hunt, the $3000 fee will be the last thing on my mind. bullet placement will be my concern and everything after that will work itself out.
As I have said before, if the Game Scout finds 1 drop of blood, the trophy fee is yours to pay, whether we find the critter or not.
Not saying it can't happen with a rifle, but you shoot him through the leg muscle, he's yours. And you won't find him (that has nothing to do with cartridges, but with accuracy. Just trying to illustrate a point). you said it yourself, it can happen with a rifle just as easy. i know you said below that you don't shoot handguns well, i want to assure you they can indeed be shot very accurately.
klallen wrote:
i will not be getting rid of my .416remmag just as i will not be getting rid of my .454casull or .500s&wmag.
If the last two are as effective as the first listed, that would render it redundant. redundant? hell, p l . i own a .40s&w and a .41ae . a .45gap and .45acp . several rifles in .257 caliber up to .308 that overlap usage for my deer hunting. semiauto's and revolvers in .44remmag, .45winmag and .50ae all with similar hunting purposes. 2 10mm semiauto's. you seriously think redundancy matters in the least to me. lol. i get the point you're efforting to make though ... why keep the rifle when i have the revolvers, right? at no point have i ever admonished anyone to replace their rifles with large handguns. i'm simply showing another popular means of hunting. no off the cuff need to sell any rifles. just as there's no no need to minimize revolver performance, either.
Just a guess, but I would say I have a bit more of 'hands on' experience at seeing animals shot. I've seen some things that work and seen some things that fail to work. even so, the one vital piece of experience you're missing is the central point of why i submit you are no expert on the topic. you've never seen an dangerous animal killed with a handgun. you have no idea how they work so well. you have no idea why they succeed. you can't come up with a formula illustrating why they do what they do. in short, with the simple investigating i've done over the last several years, i have more experience on the subject of handguns and dangerous game hunting then you do. that, my friend, is sad. especially when you're argueing the point you are. there would be some moniker of validity to your stance if you could have come on here and said you've actually witnessed handguns fail on game but when the best you can to is what you've done, your opinon as an expert on this specific topic looses all weight.
I see clients take ruffly a hundred animals each year (not counting my own hunting). I've even used a handgun ! And although, I don't shoot handguns well, I was successful. I have seen my fair share of critters taken with a handgun (not in Africa). again, i don't believe for a second you have ever seen any dangerous game taken with a handgun.
With all that B.S. aside, I have seen quite a few Buffalo taken in my day. Many are hit hard (like the one in the link), and if a 458 Winnie develops 5,000 ft. lbs. of energy, and a Buffalo can take more than a few before he gets sick enough to lay down, . . . . . . . I'm thinking, any handgun won't cut it. you need to look a fella in the face that has cleanly taken all of the dangerous game with a handgun and tell him his choice of weapon "won't cut it". be neat to sit ya down with a room full of hunters that fill the sci records for elephant, buffalo, rino and the big cats (in short, the hardcore handgun users) and watch their expressions as you shower them with your years of expertice, and use that as some sort of proof that handguns "won't cut it". i dare say they'd be less polite to you then i've been. probably laugh ya right back to florida. maybe all the way to tanzania.
The shots that hit the Buff (in the link), I doubt you could say they were misplaced,. or not very effective (as some of them went through), now, as I said, that Buff went more than 60 yards. If the Buff come at you instead of running away, are the handgun cartridges considered "A STOPPER" ? as will the primary rifle hunter in that link, a handgun hunter would have his ph their backing him up as well. and yes, rather then turning tail and running, you can rest assured a handgun hunter wold be unloading his weapons remaining rounds into the animal regardless of weather it were coming to or going away from him.
Few people can comprehend the punishment a Buffalo can take. Until you see it for yourself, you may have belief that handguns are as effective as rifle cartridges. there comes a point where you need to simply step back and admit, you don't know of which you speak. contrary to how the tone of my involvement with this topic may sound, i have loads of respect for your knowledge of the animals you hunt and how they respond to rifle cartridges. you've got experiences in africa i'll only be able to dream of. that said, i respectfully submit, you don't know squat about the virtues of handgun performance. if you did, there is no way you would be carrying on as you have in this string.
so again, i would incourage you to do some study on the subject. just for your own enlightenment. continual learning isn't a bad thing. search out fellas who've actually done what we're speaking of. hear their stories. if you can't take me at my word, fine. go straight to the horses mouth. hear what they use. see what they have to say about the performance, the penetration, the damage a cast solid can inflict on a large animal. until you do this, you simply do not know.
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12th, 2009 02:42 PM |
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31st Post |
PhilLozano
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klallen wrote: PhilLozano wrote: Well, . . . . . . is lead stronger than steel ? no. however, the alloy these companies use for their solids intended for dangerous game use will not deform.
if the rifle cartridges can bend steel jacketed solids (I've found bent solids in critters),
would it make sense to shoot hardcast bullets ? see above.
Was any load data given for the rifles ? what data do you need? grains of powder and primer used? no data was given for the handguns, either. simply cartridge, bullet style and weight, velocity and penetration in the same test medium.
They listed the velocity for the items they were testing for handguns. Maybe you read it too fast and skipped over ithat part.
Was there a distance that each was tested at ? i saw no ranges given but would guess a reasonable handgun distance was used for all rounds.
Which is what ?
He did mention he has shot big bore pistols for 40 years. Why didn't he mention he aso shot rifles for 40 years. taffin's expertice is big bore handguns. it isn't him that puts on these shooting demonstrations. it's linebaugh, himself. a gunsmith. i would guess he knows his firearms, rifle and handgun. besides, what's the point? you reference alphin's any shot you want and seem to put a weighted sum of importance on what he says. he doesn't have a reloading section in his manual for handguns and speaks nothing of their capabilities on a single page of his 600+ page book. does this suggest handguns don't exist? or that he has no intimate knowledge of what a modern handgun cartridge is capable of?
The formula for P.I. was quoted fron Art's book. Additionally, I suggested a review of the DG section.
Is he employed by Garrett ? If not, who then ? at the time of the article i believe taffin was a contributing editor of the mag.
Perhaps, . . . perhaps not.
If you cannot see that this was a bit bias, ok, . . . . . .
as I said, be a believer, no problem.
When your time comes to shoot a Buffalo, are you willing to bet the $3,000 trophy fee that the handgun cartridge you have chosen is the right choice. i have no doubt the power's there. if i have sufficiently prepared myself for the hunt, the $3000 fee will be the last thing on my mind. bullet placement will be my concern and everything after that will work itself out.
As I have said before, if the Game Scout finds 1 drop of blood, the trophy fee is yours to pay, whether we find the critter or not.
Not saying it can't happen with a rifle, but you shoot him through the leg muscle, he's yours. And you won't find him (that has nothing to do with cartridges, but with accuracy. Just trying to illustrate a point). you said it yourself, it can happen with a rifle just as easy. i know you said below that you don't shoot handguns well, i want to assure you they can indeed be shot very accurately.
NEver said they were not accurate.
klallen wrote: i will not be getting rid of my .416remmag just as i will not be getting rid of my .454casull or .500s&wmag.
If the last two are as effective as the first listed, that would render it redundant. redundant? hell, p l . i own a .40s&w and a .41ae . a .45gap and .45acp . several rifles in .257 caliber up to .308 that overlap usage for my deer hunting. semiauto's and revolvers in .44remmag, .45winmag and .50ae all with similar hunting purposes. 2 10mm semiauto's. you seriously think redundancy matters in the least to me. lol. i get the point you're efforting to make though ... why keep the rifle when i have the revolvers, right? at no point have i ever admonished anyone to replace their rifles with large handguns. i'm simply showing another popular means of hunting. no off the cuff need to sell any rifles. just as there's no no need to minimize revolver performance, either.
Just a guess, but I would say I have a bit more of 'hands on' experience at seeing animals shot. I've seen some things that work and seen some things that fail to work. even so, the one vital piece of experience you're missing is the central point of why i submit you are no expert on the topic. you've never seen an dangerous animal killed with a handgun.
And neither have you, well at least African DG.
you have no idea how they work so well. you have no idea why they succeed.
Neither do you. You stated that you could not figure out the formula, and that E=MC2 works for everything, but does not work for handgun cartridges.
you can't come up with a formula illustrating why they do what they do.
See above
in short, with the simple investigating i've done over the last several years, i have more experience on the subject of handguns and dangerous game hunting then you do.
How do you know that ? Are you my shadow ? You have no idea what I have studied and what I have not studied.
that, my friend, is sad. especially when you're argueing the point you are. there would be some moniker of validity to your stance if you could have come on here and said you've actually witnessed handguns fail on game but when the best you can to is what you've done, your opinon as an expert on this specific topic looses all weight.
As does yours.
I see clients take ruffly a hundred animals each year (not counting my own hunting). I've even used a handgun ! And although, I don't shoot handguns well, I was successful. I have seen my fair share of critters taken with a handgun (not in Africa). again, i don't believe for a second you have ever seen any dangerous game taken with a handgun.
Again, how do you know what I've seen ?
With all that B.S. aside, I have seen quite a few Buffalo taken in my day. Many are hit hard (like the one in the link), and if a 458 Winnie develops 5,000 ft. lbs. of energy, and a Buffalo can take more than a few before he gets sick enough to lay down, . . . . . . . I'm thinking, any handgun won't cut it. you need to look a fella in the face that has cleanly taken all of the dangerous game with a handgun and tell him his choice of weapon "won't cut it". be neat to sit ya down with a room full of hunters that fill the sci records for elephant, buffalo, rino and the big cats (in short, the hardcore handgun users) and watch their expressions as you shower them with your years of expertice, and use that as some sort of proof that handguns "won't cut it". i dare say they'd be less polite to you then i've been. probably laugh ya right back to florida. maybe all the way to tanzania.
I spoken to many, many handgun hunters, at SCI and other places.
The shots that hit the Buff (in the link), I doubt you could say they were misplaced,. or not very effective (as some of them went through), now, as I said, that Buff went more than 60 yards. If the Buff come at you instead of running away, are the handgun cartridges considered "A STOPPER" ? as will the primary rifle hunter in that link, a handgun hunter would have his ph their backing him up as well.
This was my point early on, but it seems you missed it.
What if the P.H. had a misfire, or was struck by a bolt od lightening ? Well then you're on your own, Pal. Anyone that depends on the P.H. to save their bacon, is not prepaired. And every time I read one of these stories, there is always someone along that will save the day.
And they are not carrying a handgun cartridge, nor one that they are "trying to prove is just as good" as a ________ .
and yes, rather then turning tail and running, you can rest assured a handgun hunter wold be unloading his weapons remaining rounds into the animal regardless of weather it were coming to or going away from him.
Good for you.
Few people can comprehend the punishment a Buffalo can take. Until you see it for yourself, you may have belief that handguns are as effective as rifle cartridges. there comes a point where you need to simply step back and admit, you don't know of which you speak.
Neither do you.
contrary to how the tone of my involvement with this topic may sound, i have loads of respect for your knowledge of the animals you hunt and how they respond to rifle cartridges. you've got experiences in africa i'll only be able to dream of. that said, i respectfully submit, you don't know squat about the virtues of handgun performance. if you did, there is no way you would be carrying on as you have in this string.
How do you know, what I know ? Have we ever met ? Do you know what cartridges I shoot ? Do you know which handguns I own and shoot ? Then youmust know the handgun cartridge I hunt with regularily. Do tell, which one is that ?
o again, i would incourage you to do some study on the subject. just for your own enlightenment. continual learning isn't a bad thing. search out fellas who've actually done what we're speaking of. hear their stories. if you can't take me at my word, fine. go straight to the horses mouth. hear what they use. see what they have to say about the performance, the penetration, the damage a cast solid can inflict on a large animal.
See above.
until you do this, you simply do not know.
Whatever.
I defer to your greater knowledge. Your're the man.
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 12th, 2009 05:01 PM |
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32nd Post |
klallen
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| Joined: | Thu Feb 10th, 2005 |
| Location: | Great Falls, Montana USA |
| Posts: | 1189 |
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PhilLozano wrote: klallen wrote: PhilLozano wrote: Was any load data given for the rifles ? what data do you need? grains of powder and primer used? no data was given for the handguns, either. simply cartridge, bullet style and weight, velocity and penetration in the same test medium.
They listed the velocity for the items they were testing for handguns. Maybe you read it too fast and skipped over ithat part. the penetration demonstration was done with large cartridges in revolver and rifle. taken direct from the article, 3rd paragraph down. velocities are listed for the rifle cartridges used ... .45-70, .500ne, .458winmag.
Was there a distance that each was tested at ? i saw no ranges given but would guess a reasonable handgun distance was used for all rounds.
Which is what ? we would have to ask linebaugh what his demonstrations use for shot distance.
He did mention he has shot big bore pistols for 40 years. Why didn't he mention he aso shot rifles for 40 years. taffin's expertice is big bore handguns. it isn't him that puts on these shooting demonstrations. it's linebaugh, himself. a gunsmith. i would guess he knows his firearms, rifle and handgun. besides, what's the point? you reference alphin's any shot you want and seem to put a weighted sum of importance on what he says. he doesn't have a reloading section in his manual for handguns and speaks nothing of their capabilities on a single page of his 600+ page book. does this suggest handguns don't exist? or that he has no intimate knowledge of what a modern handgun cartridge is capable of?
The formula for P.I. was quoted from Art's book. Additionally, I suggested a review of the DG section. i understand that. you have a lot of respect for alphin's opinion, formulas and book. however, it's a rifle manual, period. what's his experience with big bore handguns? does he have any?
As I have said before, if the Game Scout finds 1 drop of blood, the trophy fee is yours to pay, whether we find the critter or not.
Not saying it can't happen with a rifle, but you shoot him through the leg muscle, he's yours. And you won't find him (that has nothing to do with cartridges, but with accuracy. Just trying to illustrate a point). you said it yourself, it can happen with a rifle just as easy. i know you said below that you don't shoot handguns well, i want to assure you they can indeed be shot very accurately.
Never said they were not accurate. what you said is "you" are not accurate with them. my point was they "can" be shot accurately and an accurately shot big bore handgun is indeed a hugely effective weapon on very large bodied animals. Just a guess, but I would say I have a bit more of 'hands on' experience at seeing animals shot. I've seen some things that work and seen some things that fail to work. even so, the one vital piece of experience you're missing is the central point of why i submit you are no expert on the topic. you've never seen an dangerous animal killed with a handgun.
And neither have you, well at least African DG. i've at least investigated the topic. educated myself. you have not.
you have no idea how they work so well. you have no idea why they succeed.
Neither do you. again, i've at least envestigated the topid. educated myself. you have not. You stated that you could not figure out the formula, and that E=MC2 works for everything, but does not work for handgun cartridges. what i stated from the start is the rifle-intended formulas you champion do nothing do illustrate the potential of a large handgun cartridge. i can not seem to get that through your head. you are the classic type who sees 5000# energy for a .416 and 1800# energy for a .454 and based on that can't possibly believe a handgun round could take down a large animal. as if the bullet would hit, and then bounce off. i will say again, large handgun cartridges work so differently then rifle cartridges. with rifles, energy and velocity rule. with handguns, momentum, moderate velocity, massive frontal surfaces are key. there is no doubt a solid round nose from a rifle sheds its energy into the animal differently then a large frontal area impact surface of a cast bullet would. more then anything else, this is where differences lie.
in short, with the simple investigating i've done over the last several years, i have more experience on the subject of handguns and dangerous game hunting then you do.
How do you know that ? Are you my shadow ? You have no idea what I have studied and what I have not studied. your words speak volumes, p l . and every word you've printed in this entire string screams to the fact that you have no idea what a large handgun cartridge can do or how it does it. you indict yourself every time you post something.
I see clients take ruffly a hundred animals each year (not counting my own hunting). I've even used a handgun ! And although, I don't shoot handguns well, I was successful. I have seen my fair share of critters taken with a handgun (not in Africa). again, i don't believe for a second you have ever seen any dangerous game taken with a handgun.
Again, how do you know what I've seen ? again, the words you type.
With all that B.S. aside, I have seen quite a few Buffalo taken in my day. Many are hit hard (like the one in the link), and if a 458 Winnie develops 5,000 ft. lbs. of energy, and a Buffalo can take more than a few before he gets sick enough to lay down, . . . . . . . I'm thinking, any handgun won't cut it. you need to look a fella in the face that has cleanly taken all of the dangerous game with a handgun and tell him his choice of weapon "won't cut it". be neat to sit ya down with a room full of hunters that fill the sci records for elephant, buffalo, rino and the big cats (in short, the hardcore handgun users) and watch their expressions as you shower them with your years of expertice, and use that as some sort of proof that handguns "won't cut it". i dare say they'd be less polite to you then i've been. probably laugh ya right back to florida. maybe all the way to tanzania.
I spoken to many, many handgun hunters, at SCI and other places. and what? they universally agreed with you that a handgun won't cut it on dangerous game? because you told them so? please.
The shots that hit the Buff (in the link), I doubt you could say they were misplaced,. or not very effective (as some of them went through), now, as I said, that Buff went more than 60 yards. If the Buff come at you instead of running away, are the handgun cartridges considered "A STOPPER" ? as will the primary rifle hunter in that link, a handgun hunter would have his ph their backing him up as well.
This was my point early on, but it seems you missed it.
What if the P.H. had a misfire, or was struck by a bolt od lightening ? Well then you're on your own, Pal. Anyone that depends on the P.H. to save their bacon, is not prepaired. And every time I read one of these stories, there is always someone along that will save the day.
And they are not carrying a handgun cartridge, nor one that they are "trying to prove is just as good" as a ________ . ya know, it's funny what a guy can read into a post when he's trying to make a point. understand, p l . at no point did i ever suggest a handgun hunter would be relying on his ph any more or less then a rifle hunter would. the ph's roll would be the same regardless. find the game, get client in the best position for success ... then move out of the way. let the hunter do what he's there to do. that is what i'd expect of you or any ph. and if the first shot doesn't take the animal down, subsequent shots will certainly be taken, just as the guy in your .458 story did. you fired in assistence, if i'm not mistaken cause you felt some need to do so. i'd expect you to do the same for a handgun hunter.
Few people can comprehend the punishment a Buffalo can take. Until you see it for yourself, you may have belief that handguns are as effective as rifle cartridges. there comes a point where you need to simply step back and admit, you don't know of which you speak.
Neither do you. seriously, bud? you really think i've delved into this topic for the better part of 9 years and have come out the other side knowing nothing of which i speak? lol.
contrary to how the tone of my involvement with this topic may sound, i have loads of respect for your knowledge of the animals you hunt and how they respond to rifle cartridges. you've got experiences in africa i'll only be able to dream of. that said, i respectfully submit, you don't know squat about the virtues of handgun performance. if you did, there is no way you would be carrying on as you have in this string.
How do you know, what I know ? Have we ever met ? Do you know what cartridges I shoot ? Do you know which handguns I own and shoot ? Then you must know the handgun cartridge I hunt with regularily. Do tell, which one is that ? ok. let's give this a try. you obviously don't hunt dangerous game with handguns. that would fly in the eye of everything you stand for. we've already established you don't shoot handguns well, so i dare say it's pretty safe to assume you don't own any of the real big revolver cartridges. why own it if ya can't shoot it, right? and these big guys are not for the novice handgun user. you may have borrowed a buddies .454 or .500 (big revolver) to take a few shots at the range one day, but have no meaningful trigger time. you've done no handload development for these rounds. as such, you've done no investigatory work learning the ins and outs of what's needed, component wise, to make a large handgun round shine on big bodied animals. you may have a couple semiauto's. 9mm, .40s&w., .45acp. easy plinkers. nothing large ... .45winmag, .50ae. these would be to much. a revolver (maybe 2). you'd want the easier shooting cartridges so i'm thinking .357, .44remmag or .45colt downloaded. smaller, manageable stuff.
o again, i would incourage you to do some study on the subject. just for your own enlightenment. continual learning isn't a bad thing. search out fellas who've actually done what we're speaking of. hear their stories. if you can't take me at my word, fine. go straight to the horses mouth. hear what they use. see what they have to say about the performance, the penetration, the damage a cast solid can inflict on a large animal.
See above. again, i don't believe for a sec you've done any meaningful digging into the matter. you've posted nothing to prove that you have.
until you do this, you simply do not know.
Whatever.
I defer to your greater knowledge. Your're the man. mercy sake, if we could have come to this conclusion much earlier, this string could have been alot shorter. lol. seriously, i'm not "the" man, p l . what i am is "a" man who's done lots of studying on this topic. i'm a man who started out nine years ago looking to load for my .44remmag. and through all the data sifted through heard the .44 was a wonderful revolver cartridge for elk. on my own, i could never wrap my arms around that thinking. after all, what's a plodding 240 gr. bullet from my .44 going to do on that large an animal in comparison to say a .300winmag and it's 180 gr. bullet generates upwards of 3 times more energy. my friend, the education began. now, i have a better understanding of how and why a .44 can do what it does on elk. it's the same reasona .454 will work on buff. or a .500 will work on elephant. these things you can learn ... if you want to. i have put the time in. you're 100% correct, i've not personally done it. however, i have talked to those who have. over and over and over again. the repetative telling of successful experiences establishs an understanding of what's needed that i'm fully confident in. you choose not to do this. you choose not to dig deeper. in your experiences, you have seen rifles fail on dangerous game. as such, you've developed an attitude that if rifles have failed, handguns surely can't succeed. you're all wrapped up on energy. just as i was 9 years ago with my .44 and the .300. couldn't get past it for a long time. then it kinda clicked. there's no real formula that adaquately shows what a large handgun cartridge can do on game. no formula that wraps it all up into a nice little bow like alphin chamions when he compares rifle cartridges to other rifle cartridges by equations and paper data. it don't work that way with handguns. you have to do the testing. that's why i hoped the above article would have been received a little better. rather then numerical data that can't be generated, it was physical data sitting in front of your face. didn't have the effect i hoped. but the more i think about it, i guess it was to be expected. i usually don't agree with the "can't teach an old dog new tricks" garbage. most that i know in this hobby of ours, old or young, are not adverse to continual learning. however, maybe in this instance, it does apply. i don't know. the effectiveness of handguns in all types of hunting applications is a topic that's fascinated me for a long, long time. as such, i've dug to gain an understanding. if that means i've a greater knowledge of handguns on dangerous game then you, i'm certainly not going to apologize for it. it's been valuable time spent on my part. you're obviously not interested in educating yourself. that's perfectly fine. just don't pass yourself off as an expert professing what handguns can and can not do on dangerous game.
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 02:49 AM |
|
33rd Post |
PhilLozano
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| Joined: | Mon May 23rd, 2005 |
| Location: | Arusha, Tanzania |
| Posts: | 382 |
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Additionally, I'm suprised you could not tell I was only a bit sarcastic when I said your the man.
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 03:03 AM |
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34th Post |
| Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 03:04 AM |
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klallen
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the sarcasm was indeed noted.
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A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 03:05 AM |
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36th Post |
| Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 03:08 AM |
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37th Post |
klallen
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read your pm.
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 03:24 AM |
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38th Post |
| Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 03:36 AM |
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39th Post |
klallen
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just so i'm clear on this, with all we've talked about here, you seriously thing i would intentionally deleted two sentences from one of your 3 sentence posts?
good lord.
you received a pm that moment i noticed what i had done with three appologies in it. i've never intentionally edited a single thread of someone elses on this site (other then my own). i certainly wouldn't start with the harmless banter we've exchanged in this string.
anyway, you've got your appology. accept it or not, that's all you get.
____________________
A Big Mouth Don't Make A Big Man !!!
THE DUKE
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 04:02 AM |
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40th Post |
PhilLozano
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RE: your comments
Is it that I don't know, or that I have studied similiar materials and data as you, and come away with different conclusions? You might be careful when making assumptions of who knows what. Because someone has come to a different conclusion, one cannot assume that, that person must be lacking the information you have, when if fact, it is the same information.
Please don't edit this one.
____________________
Best,
Phil
Stay out of sight and downwind
Professional Hunter / Tanzania
http://www.go-on-safari.com
http://www.go-on-safari.com/talk
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