| Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 04:37 AM |
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41st Post |
klallen
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we've been talking for 6 days now, p l . at no point have you said anything that would suggest you've studied or investigated the topic. hell, you have more questions now than i did 9 years ago. that does not speak of a person who's done the digging, so to speak.
sooooo no, i don't believe for a moment you've read the same materials as i have, talked to similar handgun hunters as i have, worked with the same revolvers that i have ... just to come away with a completely opposite conclusion then i.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13th, 2009 04:49 AM |
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42nd Post |
| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 05:54 AM |
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43rd Post |
Irish Mike
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Klallen, so when is Phil taking you out after cape buff? Now are you going to use 1 pistol or 2 pistols like Roy Rogers used in his movies?
Hey, that was meant as a nice joke! So please do not get mad about the 2 gun stint savvy. However, I must put my 2cents worth in on this Pistol hunt of Cape Buffalo. I do not have a 500 Smith & Wesson but do own now, a .460 Smith & Wesson and I should have never purchased the critter frankly. I guess I am feeling what oats I have left in the bin perhaps.
I would never put this pistols up against my .458 Win mag or .458-Lott using a 500 grain bullet. I have seen from flim, mind you, the results of at least 35 different cape buff shot with big bore rifle and man they die hard most of the time. I have only seen 3 out of the bunch that went down on the first shot.
I have also seen the results of the lever guns in 45/70 with Buffalo Bore ammo I believe it was, used on a cape buff. Not my choice of weapons at all, to each his own and prayers as well. I have to agree with the local PH on going after buff with a pistol. I would never bet money on the shooter! Now what I am saying so common folks like myself can understand is simply like this OK.
If someone told you, that you could make $10,000 dollars if you got in the ring with Sonny Liston and all you had to do, was hit him on the nose you would be able to take 10 Grand to the bank. However, if Sonny were to hit you, most likely you would be taking a ride in the back of a hearse on your way to the cemetary. The odds are far in favor of the Cape Buff! I rest my case pistolero. 
Last edited on Mon Mar 30th, 2009 05:54 AM by
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 03:17 PM |
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44th Post |
PhilLozano
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 I agree. Not saying they would not kill a Buff, but just not quite fast enough.
Kinda like .
The need, time wise, to put the critter on the ground is more important, than what you used to get that job done.
As I have said before, you can kill Elk with a 243 Winchester, but it more than likely would not be the cartridge of choice.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 05:47 PM |
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45th Post |
fryboy
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thaz alot of discussion amigo's ,sadly the most important thing is indeed shot placement ( dont get me wrong i love handcannons and big bore rifles) i dont have the means to hunt africa and if i did it goes against my "hunting for sport ethics" ie; i have no desire to kill a living thing just because i can or to be able to say "i told u so " i also know that it isnt called dangerous game for nothin' all that being said let me relate a true experience i had
american bison ..perhaps not as tough nor as dangerous as water buffalo but still pretty large for american game(and should they choose to could pummel any of us flat ) ,i know a guy ( several actually but i digress -soz) who has a large native plains pasture ( rolling plains and such 3 miles square ) started a herd of buffalo after about 5 years started sellin buff hunts ,i skin and when finances permit buy my own ( great eats btw )he had a bigshot lawyer paid bukoo bucks for a big bull ,he has ( he said ) 5 african water buff's under his belt ,brought out a gorgeous rifle simply awesum ! 375 h&h the ol tried and true minimum caliber for buff in africa as most of us know ,he proceeded to spend 45 minutes and 5 shots wounding this great beast to death much to my dismay and assuredly to the critter's as well ,that doesnt mean that the gun isnt capable ,same field ..same day a guy and his son ,dad with a 30-06 pre 64 mod 70 win son with a mod 94 win in 30-30 ,together they lined up on the same buff both confirmed to each other that they were ready dad counted down and both pulled the trigger (this is funny ) the buff never moved except straight down dad forgot to take the safety off the kid actually had a lucky shot (afterwards he shot at a target and missed 5 for 5 ) he was there for the togetherness and actually managed to show dad up ,would i take a 30-30 after a american buff ? nope but i saw it done ..wow ....i recall the first copy (that i owned)of cartridges of the world by the late frank barnes where he related a story of someone in africa who fired a .22 lr at a elephant in a effort to scare it away and accidently killed it as he stated that doesnt make the .22 lr a elephant cartridge but it has been done ..would i attempt it ? are ya crazy man heck no ! it seems i recall that a mild lil 6.5 m-s was a favorite of a professional elephant hunter ,pretty sure it was indeed shot placement along with those beautiful 6.5 bullets
yes i wouldnt hunt africa for sport hunting but if i was there living i would hunt for meat ,that being said i'd like to have something with punch ( way more than that lil 6.5 m-s!!!!!)handy in case a nasty did decide it didnt like me ,i also am a handcannon fan and while i read glowing reports about various ones ( including the 18-19 one shot kills with a 375jdj on elephant -stunt hunt or not cant deny it can be done)most my hunting is done with a rifle ,for the hunting i do i prefer something that isnt too much power 6-6.5 mm covers my american hunting pretty much as all i hunt is deer,elk,and the occasional american buffalo (varmits dont count btw nor does upland birds)
given the replies on the 2 rifle battery for africa in the other thread i'd bring my old 300 mag (h&h not winnie)and would prefer a 50 bmg but would have to settle for a 458 win mag( dont have a 416  )altho that 12 gauge from hell mite do in a pinch  wonder if he'd let me borrow it ?big bullets make big holes but without that shot placement ya mite as well stay home
as for guidin folks both good and bad shots u have my respect P.L.and i only hope u see more of the former and less of the latter !
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 06:30 PM |
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46th Post |
Irish Mike
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Fryboy, I believe that "Shot Placement" is always or should be a given to any hunting going after any big game animal and especially something like a Cape Buffalo or other dangerous game.
If you shoot a lion through the shoulders with a big bore bullet, You won't have to worry about that critter coming at you full bore as in that video on the internet. You break that animal down, which keeps his front end from going anywhere, then kill the critter. I think shotplacement is or should be a must seniero everytime out the gate savvy.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 06:43 PM |
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47th Post |
klallen
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gentlemen, hunt dangerous stuff with what you want. it makes no nevermind to me. i truely don't care. i just have more respect for what a large capacity, big bore handgun cartridge is capable of. you hear enough reports; ya work with the handguns enough, you start to understand how hard they can hit and deep they can penetrate. if phil were my guide and i were hunting areas that allowed either handgun or rifle (or bow), he'd guide me to the game and get me in position for the best opportunity of success, no matter which weapon i chose to use. or, if he chose not to do so, he'd be replaced and another top notch perfessional hunter / guide would be hired to do the job. again, makes no nevermind to me. i don't believe for a second you're any closer to the grave with a large handgun at arm then a rifle, assuming, of course, your proficient with the weapon. if you're not, i agree. stick with the long guns.
there's a video over on youtube. watched it a couple times. kind of hokey, running, fast paced footage. can't remember the title of it now but it's a fella that's the owner of some blade company down under who also does pest control for clients and government. he sales a video of his exploits. does his culling of buffalo and wild boar with a revolver. i believe it's a .44 . but would have to dig deeper to confirm that. it's a short video. no meaningful commentary. just impact video of a smallish revolver cartridge, relatively speaking, on some large bodied animals. it's interesting. now, i'm not suggesting austrailian buffalo are of the same testicular fortitude as cape buffalo. just as i'm not suggesting that a .44remmag is a large handgun cartridge. just a quick snippet showing how slow, mid cal bullets can perform on large mass.
shoot what ya will.
later, guys.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 06:56 PM |
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48th Post |
Dirtkicker
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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe 'Karamojo' Bell (back in the glory days of wild Africa) is credited with probably killing more elephants than any other man, ever. He used a 7mm Mauser.
We all make our choices. After a lifetime of hunting, mine is to hunt for my food as much as I can and not to kill critters for the sheer sport of it. Except for pure-D varmints, if I'm not gonna eat it I'm not gonna kill it. YMMV. I know what works for me.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30th, 2009 07:23 PM |
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49th Post |
klallen
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Dirtkicker wrote: Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe 'Karamojo' Bell (back in the glory days of wild Africa) is credited with probably killing more elephants than any other man, ever. He used a 7mm Mauser.
that's the legend, dk.
i have talked with ph's that are fortunate enough to come over to local sportsmen shows we have. overall, a nice group to chat with. talked with a guy who claims he regularly participates in cape buffalo culls. said he uses a heavy bullet out of a .308 win. i've no idea how they get past the .375 cal min req for these culls. maybe gov number culling requirements are more forgiving. i don't know. anyway, that's the story he told. and he wasn't really all that impressed with himself for doing so. bullet in the right place and flop.
you have fellas who tell nothing but near mythical horror stories about these big guys and then you hear them being culled with a tiny .308 bullet. i don't know. i'm sure the truth about them is found somewhere in the middle.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 01:28 AM |
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50th Post |
Irish Mike
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Dirtkicker, there is also another tale about Bell, "that he wounded many animals to end up dieing or go off and injure someone else". You see nobody took book on what he really did understand. It's kind of like the gunfighter's of the Old West! There was a lot printed in dime novels back then and years later Hollywood movies and Television built things up that just were not true in one respect or another savvy. Like the "Fast Draw" that NEVER existed really.
Now don't get me wrong here, I do love my handguns but on dangerous game such as Cape Buffalo, I'll stick to what gives me the odds of hunting again the next day and day after. I am positive my 460 Smith & Wesson or even 44 mag would kill a buff with a head shot! However, I will never be the one standing in front of that bull with a handgun, I like living to damn much to start with OK, to each his own and experienced people will use what they know works and keeps you out of harms way simply put my dear forum members. 
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 01:35 AM |
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51st Post |
Dirtkicker
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Irish Mike wrote: Dirtkicker, there is also another tale about Bell, "that he wounded many animals to end up dieing or go off and injure someone else". You see nobody took book on what he really did understand. It's kind of like the gunfighter's of the Old West! There was a lot printed in dime novels back then and years later Hollywood movies and Television built things up that just were not true in one respect or another savvy. Like the "Fast Draw" that NEVER existed really.
Now don't get me wrong here, I do love my handguns but on dangerous game such as Cape Buffalo, I'll stick to what gives me the odds of hunting again the next day and day after. I am positive my 460 Smith & Wesson or even 44 mag would kill a buff with a head shot! However, I will never be the one standing in front of that bull with a handgun, I like living to damn much to start with OK, to each his own and experienced people will use what they know works and keeps you out of harms way simply put my dear forum members.
I hear you, Mike. Do you have a source for that quote about Bell? I'm curious because I have never seen that expressed before. I don't doubt it, I just would like to have a source.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 01:42 AM |
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52nd Post |
Irish Mike
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Dirtkicker the source belong to a very distinguished English gentleman, who was very much in tune with Africa back in the 50's and 60's.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 01:46 AM |
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53rd Post |
klallen
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why are you equating hunting dangerous game with handguns as certain death, i m ? it is, of course, far from.
i've never heard one handgun hunter who's taken cape buffalo with large handgun cartridges ever use the head as the initial point of impact. break them down as you would with any rifle cartridge, is what they do.
from the sounds of it, i dare say it would freak the living tar clean out of ya if you fully understood what your .460 was capable of doing on the largest of big game animals ... with the right bullet and in the right hands, of course.
we gotta stop the over dramatization, though. as with any of us who hunt, handgunners certainly don't enter the field knowing it's gonna be their last.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 02:25 AM |
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54th Post |
Irish Mike
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Klallen, I don't believe I said anything about hunting Cape Buffalo with a handgun as "certain death" however I did say I would not be the person standing in front of one OK. Now if your standing in front of Mr. Black Death, a darn good place to start is the head, simply because once he takes off on a bee-line for your hide, your not going to have much else to aim at my dear fellow, same goes of a Rhino as well.
Now you mentioned breaking them down, Cape Buffalo are one tuff critter to do just that and just in case you don't know my good man, Cape Buffalo are the only living species of dangerous game animal with over lapping ribs almost the size of a baseball bat savvy.
Klallen, I have never as yet taken a Cape Buff but have taken big bear and there is no comparison between the two, other than they will both kill you if they get their way. The bear will dine on your hide but the buff will just hook and pound you into small pieces for the rest of the food chain.
If your so intense on using that 500 Smith & Wesson, give Phil a call and go hunt Cape Buffalo with your pistol. I'll even loan your carcass a big bore rifle in one of several calibers. You can take your pick OK. My taxidermist showed me a buff that was shot 7 times between both the PH and client, who used a .416 Rigby and PH had a 500 N.E......Just remember to fill your pockets with plenty of pistol bullets and don't forget your suit of armor, as you will need it after that last shot and the Black Train is gasping fire out both nostris, coming down the track dead on for your soul.   
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 03:05 AM |
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55th Post |
klallen
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i m, i wouldn't be aiming for head if i were hunting cape buffalo with my .416remmag. i wouldn't with either of the large revolvers, either. it's no secret they're a big bodied, tough animal. that's exactly why you don't hear handgun hunters hunting them with .32's and .357's. i assure you, a 395 lbt solid from a .454casull, or a 440 from a .475linebaugh or a 500 from a .500s&w isn't simply gonna bounce off. you're gonna get anywhere from 35" - 40" of penetration, including heavy bone impact. plenty to do the job.
"as you will need it after that last shot and the Black Train is gasping fire out both nostris, coming down the track dead on for your soul."
lol. you're right. you didn't make it sound like certain death to use handguns on cape buffalo. good grief. overdramatization aside, you have to consider a more reasonable ending to the play ... that being, the animals down, hands are being shaken and photo's being taken. never heard a handgun hunter report stories of fire. i have heard followup shots being necessary and taken, as is often a common occurance with a rifle, too. but no fire. gonna have to talk to the fellers over at sci who've taken rino, elephand and lion with their handguns and see what they have to say about the nostril fire. maybe it's a common occurance with all dangerous game . one things for sure. accurate or otherwise, you do have a flare for the dramatics.
i can't hunt buff with handguns where phil guides. another canada, evidently. no handguns allowed.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 03:53 AM |
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56th Post |
Dirtkicker
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Irish Mike wrote: Dirtkicker the source belong to a very distinguished English gentleman, who was very much in tune with Africa back in the 50's and 60's.
With all due respect, Mike, that's a BS "source" if I ever read one. Means absolutely nothing.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 04:13 AM |
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57th Post |
PhilLozano
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Dirtkicker wrote: Irish Mike wrote: Dirtkicker the source belong to a very distinguished English gentleman, who was very much in tune with Africa back in the 50's and 60's.
With all due respect, Mike, that's a BS "source" if I ever read one. Means absolutely nothing.
Try -
"The Life and Times of Fredrick Selous" as a source.
Many of the "old time" Ivory Hunters were not the sportsman we would like to think they were. They shot animals and if it got dangerous, they let them go.
I can't recall the guys name, (but I can look it up) that said in his book, something to the effect that, if one wounded a Cape Buffalo, it was far too dangerous to go into the heavy bush after him.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
For you handgun hunters.
Where do you shoot when the Buffalo is broad side ? (pick a spot).
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 04:16 AM |
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58th Post |
PhilLozano
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klallen wrote: "i have talked with ph's that are fortunate enough to come over to local sportsmen shows we have. overall, a nice group to chat with. talked with a guy who claims he regularly participates in cape buffalo culls. said he uses a heavy bullet out of a .308 win. i've no idea how they get past the .375 cal min req for these culls. maybe gov number culling requirements are more forgiving. i don't know. anyway, that's the story he told. and he wasn't really all that impressed with himself for doing so. bullet in the right place and flop.
you have fellas who tell nothing but near mythical horror stories about these big guys and then you hear them being culled with a tiny .308 bullet. i don't know. i'm sure the truth about them is found somewhere in the middle."
What country were they from ?
Last edited on Tue Mar 31st, 2009 04:17 AM by PhilLozano
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 04:24 AM |
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59th Post |
Irish Mike
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Dirtkicker.....Just so you know, that distinguish gentleman was my grandfather alright and he was a person friend of a couple of very talented writers as well, who indeed loved to hunt and cherished Africa. He is no longer with us but I will always admire him and the things he told me sir. Now you can take that BS statement and wipe your arse and face with it understand. Sorry dirtkicker but I am not the gentleman my grandfather always tried to be savvy!!!
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31st, 2009 04:37 AM |
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60th Post |
klallen
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PhilLozano wrote:
What country were they from ?
will see if i can track done the guy at our next show. if the trip here benefited him financially, i imagine he'll be back.
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